Sadly, programming isn't on the agenda in any part of the national curriculum in UK school - unless you do A-level Computing as opposed to ICT - which means Computing is therefore the preserve of geekdom in schools. Contrast that against India - all Indian senior schools teach programming and hardware, and few teach ICT skills (although it's creeping in now). Few pupils use ICT for coursework etc in the way the UK does. Few countries except the UK would allow as much coursework as we do. Indians have a long history in areas like Philosophy and Maths, and they value Engineers far more than we do. You then see jobs going to India from the UK. Not all parts of India, needless to say - but there is an IT industry, they have lots of very expert programmers and they have the infrastructure to support all the stuff we now outsource to them: it's not just about price. National Curriculum and GCSE ICT make me sad in many ways: the former is largely tick-list mentality (can he do bold, can he do italic?) and the latter purports to create mini software engineers: 15 year olds doing system analysis - get real. Tests like CLAIT and ECDL don't provide any guarantees that those who pass them can use IT effectively. So how do you teach IT? : set pupils tasks which require them to use various features found in certain packages. It would be nice if everyone could self-learn applications but that would apply to only a proportion of pupils in any school. Provide support for the self-learners and teaching for those who can't get their heads round it. Assess the quality of the work done: it is 'fit for purpose'? Knowing which button to press to produce bullets is irrelevant; or should be. How do you teach programming? Most schools don't. But it's easy to pick up bad habits and it's very important that students who do decide to learn by themselves get guidance. I know I give it wherever possible. Do all schools have someone with the ability to teach C++ or VB or Java? I doubt it. Teaching programming is like teaching Latin or Maths - you are teaching a methodology and the need for rigour, attention to detail. IT companies will snap up Classics graduates because they have the intellect and approach needed to do programming. Previous experience not necessary. You can do the Times crossword? Straight in. So by teaching programming are we falling into the same 'skills' trap? Unfortunately as soon as you write a syllabus it need to be seen to be 'rigorous' (ha!) and QCA get involved. Sorry if I offend anyone connected with exam boards or the QCA - but I reckon that their muddled thinking is doing real damage. That feels better. I'll go and take a tablet. Derek -----Original Message----- From: John Dean [mailto:john@rygannon.com] Sent: 27 November 2003 15:53 To: Chris Puttick Cc: Matt Johnson; SuSe Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Open file formats and idiology On Thursday 27 November 2003 14:50, Chris Puttick wrote: Am I correct in assuming that you guys actually teach kids to use a Wordprocessor. Surely, your time would be better spent teaching the rudiments of programming. Would you believe that I have never been taught a single thing about the use of any any application from the multitude of Office Suites. The Help files and tutorials have always been my friend not the class room -- ******************************************************************************** All mail sent and received may be examined to prevent transmission of unacceptable material. Wellington College does not accept responsibility for email contents. Problems to postmaster@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk. Website: http://www.wellington-college.berks.sch.uk ********************************************************************************