On Thu, 2020-10-22 at 18:54 +0000, Attila Pinter wrote:

Dear All,

Just a heads up. The next meeting will be held on 10/23 Friday at 6pm UTC. Do check the pinned message from the Telegram group (even if you can't join) here: https://telegra.ph/pinned-2-10-15

Thanks for the meeting notification Attila, Where is the meeting going to be hosted this week? One thing troubles me - there is more and more information scatter outside opensuse: * Telegram * new on this telegram post: google doc, getsol.us, heroku.com * this adds to the other third party closed cloud resources used/referred in the past In my opinion - this does not promote transparency, is not searchable, public, excludes people who does not have the same social media accounts/preferences and is not set to benefit opensuse incrementally. For example: I committed to verify/check some of the USB media installation steps being proposed by others - there was nothing published on the mailing list. This makes it impossible to to this before it gets eventually published somewhere and mentioned on the list .... All those task could easily be done in open using existing opensuse resources such as etherpad, .... Talk to you on Friday, Tomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-doc+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-doc+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 17:44 Adrien Glauser wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512

Hello Tomas,

When you say that there is information scatter outside openSUSE, are you referring to this page https://telegra.ph/pinned-2-10-15? It's running on the same platform as telegram, you can consider it an extension of the former.

I am using these things to strike a balance between the pain of turning very circumstantial texts into media wiki syntax and the pain for others to have to jump between too many tools. So far we've been able to work with just trello, google docs, the opensuse wiki, telegram and emails -- not too bad don't you think? :) .

There is no need to get defensive. Other people have brought up the fact that we do not work with local resources. I understood that it was considered valid concern, thus we should make the change. I specifically refer to opensuse documentation on this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zERjqqQrWBAoM3B25BIQ4hvTFU_Y7S8L57b h-wb6ld4/edit?usp=sharing Followed by bunch of third party resources listed in your telegram post. I will not respond further, this is not matter of what I or you find uneasy. We either do stuff for opensuse community using opensuse infrastructure and in a manner not excluding others - or we do not - and this is just another effort stuck in another walled garden. I am not trying to be awkward. This way of working is impeding cooperation - I gave practical example: I offered help - people/you suggested what I can help with - nothing came out of it because the info is in some social media chat not visible to all. It is in the minutes if in doubt. This is important to get right, I think. If the existing opensuse cooperative tools cannot be used, we should try to improve them first, rather than just leave for google docs. Tomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-doc+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-doc+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512

...

I am using these things to strike a balance between the pain of turning very circumstantial texts into media wiki syntax and the pain for others to have to jump between too many tools. So far we've been able to work with just trello, google docs, the opensuse wiki, telegram and emails -- not too bad don't you think? :) .

There is no need to get defensive.

Not being defensive, I am just trying to make 1 step back and look at the situation.

Other people have brought up the fact that we do not work with local resources. I understood that it was considered valid concern, thus we should make the change.

What does "local resources" mean in your sentence, exactly?

I specifically refer to opensuse documentation on this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zERjqqQrWBAoM3B25BIQ4hvTFU_Y7S8L57b h-wb6ld4/edit?usp=sharing Followed by bunch of third party resources listed in your telegram post.

These "third party resources" are websites, which don't do much except serve HTTP requests. I mentioned them so that we can visit them, look around, a more forward with some baseline of an idea. Nothing else. Pure references. My understanding is that you want all of us to abide by a principle that says that there is moral requirement not to use non-FOSS software when there is a FOSS alternative. But I fail to understand how this principle applies to websites in general, or to the use of them as I was suggesting. If you meant this principle to rule out not websites but Telegram, I don't know what to say except: 1) that I am trying to make everything to not create a gap between users and non-users, as you can witness from my activity on the MLs; 2) that the entire openSUSE community is present on many of these non- FOSS platforms, such as Discord and Telegram (if we mean "non-FOSS" to cover server code and not just client code). On the other hand, I am trying to acknowledge the fact that you don't feel at ease with these websites, and my assumption was that this was the case because you felt like the normative principle stated above made them morally wrong to use / browse. I think you are mistaken in you application of the moral principle (I mean, does Richard Stallman buys his airplane tickets from Emacs?), but I am ready to suspend judgment and to make a step in your direction. Hence my suggestion that you clarify which tools you think are permitted as per your understanding of the moral principle. I hope this is crystal clear now. Cheers, A

I will not respond further, this is not matter of what I or you find uneasy. We either do stuff for opensuse community using opensuse infrastructure and in a manner not excluding others - or we do not - and this is just another effort stuck in another walled garden.

I am not trying to be awkward. This way of working is impeding cooperation - I gave practical example: I offered help - people/you suggested what I can help with - nothing came out of it because the info is in some social media chat not visible to all. It is in the minutes if in doubt.

This is important to get right, I think. If the existing opensuse cooperative tools cannot be used, we should try to improve them first, rather than just leave for google docs.

Tomas -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEU4ol/0bSQTwqpAkNMy9Aieh+wJwFAl+SoRUACgkQMy9Aieh+ wJzn8Af/f53CF4iQlhoMfQRUKz3NTTMlCb2nadJD2I4Xx0S+OmKWLWaE/vOQ52L6 XwwEcGj3pZEN0I0U/xhllT9TO0vpwQvP0Iz/qn0587wiAzYdyTh49qcWGzBF0ROg kNIjJFARVEwxTu7u2d2Lr3NiVfgD3z1puxQLoZl5yySYMZS4xXuMxL/hqUJgXjVi 6uYZubCFJpdY8wWQiSCgg4gYIw2VnautiXC0kNcx18O2BOl750huoGwxMcqXpPCm 1nzj3yhK8qwJ9O1pAS5DWeeMS0HTtQWgdhss5dv34jW+yXBZfaZ47tCr3mhGYXp0 TmKMAAfZt136Hxbm3HjwnCANIiJiJg== =Dm7j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-doc+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-doc+owner@opensuse.org