Hi, I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects. This is a binary package from Oracle - there is no source, but it may be freely distributed: https://www.oracle.com/cz/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.html This package has been listed as blacklisted in OpenSUSE since 2010: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist#Package... However, in the meantime, Oracle changed their redistribution policy to allow free redistribution of this package in binary format. I was not involved in the discussions, but back in 2010 my colleague got the oracle-instantclient binary packages accepted into OBS; he told me at the time that an exception was made (IIRC - in any cases the packages have been there for a long time despite being on the blacklist). My question to anyone who can help - can this package get accepted into the NonFree project and removed from the blacklist? If not, I believe that forbidding the oracle-instantclient package from OBS and OpenSUSE will adversely impact professionals that work with Oracle DBs - particularly due to the domino effect on dependent packages. There is no legal reason for this restriction - just a philosophical one from my understanding. Example project (now with a deletion request): https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:davidnichols/oracle-instantclie... Thanks in advance for any feedback from anyone who has insight into this situation. thx David -- *David Nichols*Qore Technologies, s.r.o. Karolinská 654/2, 186 00 Prague - CZ mobile: +420 777 279 144, +1 858 306 1002 1312 17th Street Suite 776, Denver, CO 80202 - USA tel: +1 303 833-9201 book a meeting with me: https://info.qoretechnologies.com/meetings/david-nichols https://qoretechnologies.com https://qoretechnologies.com [image: Review Qorus on Capterra and earn a $10 gift card!] https://review.capterra.com/Feedback-Qorus-Integration-Engine-182971-3337188...
Hello David, Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:28:03 CET schrieb David Nichols:
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
...these deletion requests are sent quite regularly to clean up OBS
This is a binary package from Oracle - there is no source, but it may be freely distributed: https://www.oracle.com/cz/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.html
This package has been listed as blacklisted in OpenSUSE since 2010: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist#Package...
However, in the meantime, Oracle changed their redistribution policy to allow free redistribution of this package in binary format.
So you are free to build it on OBS in your sandpit (as your below link confirms)
I was not involved in the discussions, but back in 2010 my colleague got the oracle-instantclient binary packages accepted into OBS; he told me at the time that an exception was made (IIRC - in any cases the packages have been there for a long time despite being on the blacklist).
My question to anyone who can help - can this package get accepted into the NonFree project and removed from the blacklist?
It will clearly not be accepted into openSUSE-Factory, as binaries w/o source code are against our packaging guidelines: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines#Legal
If not, I believe that forbidding the oracle-instantclient package from OBS and OpenSUSE will adversely impact professionals that work with Oracle DBs - particularly due to the domino effect on dependent packages.
There is no legal reason for this restriction - just a philosophical one from my understanding.
Example project (now with a deletion request): https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:davidnichols/oracle-instantclie...
Keep it there, regarding the non-free repository I cant comment HTH Axel
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:28:03 CET schrieb David Nichols:
Hi,
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
This is a binary package from Oracle - there is no source, but it may be freely distributed: https://www.oracle.com/cz/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.html
This package has been listed as blacklisted in OpenSUSE since 2010: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist#Package s_without_OSI_approved_license
However, in the meantime, Oracle changed their redistribution policy to allow free redistribution of this package in binary format.
I was not involved in the discussions, but back in 2010 my colleague got the oracle-instantclient binary packages accepted into OBS; he told me at the time that an exception was made (IIRC - in any cases the packages have been there for a long time despite being on the blacklist).
The deletion request has also reached me. And I rejected it for exactly the reasons you list here. Moreover, I don't know whether the request was authorised at all. That is, whether that was really his task. Or if he did it for some other reason. In addition, Axel Braun writes in the following answer to our home project: "Keep it there....". Regards Eric
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:59:21 CET schrieb Axel Braun:
Hello David,
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:28:03 CET schrieb David Nichols:
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
...these deletion requests are sent quite regularly to clean up OBS
Well. Regular is good. :-) No request in this regard for over 10 years. Or did you mean the official repos?
So you are free to build it on OBS in your sandpit (as your below link confirms)
Great, then everything is fine. :-)
It will clearly not be accepted into openSUSE-Factory, as binaries w/o source code are against our packaging guidelines: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines#Legal
I am aware of that and it suits me.
Example project (now with a deletion request): https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:davidnichols/oracle-instantcl ient Keep it there, regarding the non-free repository I cant comment
Great. That's enough for me. Thank you. Regards Eric
On Wednesday 2022-11-09 07:59, Axel Braun wrote:
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:28:03 CET schrieb David Nichols:
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
...these deletion requests are sent quite regularly to clean up OBS
1034659 is not a cleanup request (neither automated nor manual), though.
My question to anyone who can help - can this package get accepted into the NonFree project and removed from the blacklist?
It will clearly not be accepted into openSUSE-Factory, as binaries w/o source code are against our packaging guidelines: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines#Legal
NonFree is exempt from a lot of rules. See opera browser, it has no source uploaded. The wiki just makes it very clear that no one should spend and squander their time with NonFree software because of the stony path. Really there just two options: - Either get a package successfully to openSUSE:Factory:NonFree (at which point you may edit the wiki to reflects its exempted status), - or remove all copies of the problematic files (i.e. the imported .run or .rpm files or whatever the case may be -- that's why X11:Drivers:Video/nv* is without source but the recipe is staying)
On Mittwoch, 9. November 2022 07:28:03 CET David Nichols wrote:
Hi,
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
This is a binary package from Oracle - there is no source, but it may be freely distributed: https://www.oracle.com/cz/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.html
This package has been listed as blacklisted in OpenSUSE since 2010: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist#Package s_without_OSI_approved_license
However, in the meantime, Oracle changed their redistribution policy to allow free redistribution of this package in binary format.
https://www.oracle.com/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.html
Subject to the license, Instant Client can be bundled and redistributed for free. Enterprises can redistribute Instant Client within their organizations. However, customers can only call Oracle Support for Instant Client if they have a standard support contract.
Unfortunately, the license mentioned is very well hidden. I extracted the license from the Basic Lite package. It contains, besides others, the following term:
- You comply with all U.S. and applicable export control and
economic sanctions laws and regulations that govern Your use of the Programs (including technical data); The OBS (AFAIK) does not implement Geoblocking of any kind, and uploading the IC to the OBS very likely conflicts with the restriction. Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen phone: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019
On Mittwoch, 9. November 2022 07:59:21 CET Axel Braun wrote:
Hello David,
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:28:03 CET schrieb David Nichols:
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
...these deletion requests are sent quite regularly to clean up OBS
This is a binary package from Oracle - there is no source, but it may be freely distributed: https://www.oracle.com/cz/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.html
This package has been listed as blacklisted in OpenSUSE since 2010: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist#Packa ges_without_OSI_approved_license
However, in the meantime, Oracle changed their redistribution policy to allow free redistribution of this package in binary format.
So you are free to build it on OBS in your sandpit (as your below link confirms)
Unfortunately, the FAQ (which is not a legal document) does not match the actual license. You are free to redistribute as long as you guarantee the redistribution does not violate US export regulations. Obviously, this is not the case for the OBS. As long as oracleclient is listed on the Wiki page, and not cleared by the legal department, it should be removed. Kind regards, Stefan -- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen phone: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019
Am Donnerstag, 24. November 2022, 01:50:16 CET schrieb Stefan Brüns:
On Mittwoch, 9. November 2022 07:59:21 CET Axel Braun wrote:
Hello David,
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:28:03 CET schrieb David Nichols:
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
...these deletion requests are sent quite regularly to clean up OBS
This is a binary package from Oracle - there is no source, but it may be freely distributed: https://www.oracle.com/cz/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.html
This package has been listed as blacklisted in OpenSUSE since 2010: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist#Packa ges_without_OSI_approved_license
However, in the meantime, Oracle changed their redistribution policy to allow free redistribution of this package in binary format.
So you are free to build it on OBS in your sandpit (as your below link confirms)
Unfortunately, the FAQ (which is not a legal document) does not match the actual license.
You are free to redistribute as long as you guarantee the redistribution does not violate US export regulations. Obviously, this is not the case for the OBS.
I still wonder why US law drives a libre project...but I'm not a lawyer. OTOH, data is still transferred to US, although there is no legal ground for it (see Schrems-II) - and most companies give a f*** about it.
As long as oracleclient is listed on the Wiki page, and not cleared by the legal department, it should be removed.
I have put this on the agenda for the next Board meeting - I feel board should drive the clarification Cheers Axel
On Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 09:55:44 CET Axel Braun wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 24. November 2022, 01:50:16 CET schrieb Stefan Brüns:
On Mittwoch, 9. November 2022 07:59:21 CET Axel Braun wrote:
Hello David,
Am Mittwoch, 9. November 2022, 07:28:03 CET schrieb David Nichols:
I got notices for deletion requests against the oracle-instantclient packages in two OBS projects.
...these deletion requests are sent quite regularly to clean up OBS
This is a binary package from Oracle - there is no source, but it may be freely distributed: https://www.oracle.com/cz/database/technologies/faq-instant-client.htm l
This package has been listed as blacklisted in OpenSUSE since 2010: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist#P acka ges_without_OSI_approved_license
However, in the meantime, Oracle changed their redistribution policy to allow free redistribution of this package in binary format.
So you are free to build it on OBS in your sandpit (as your below link confirms)
Unfortunately, the FAQ (which is not a legal document) does not match the actual license.
You are free to redistribute as long as you guarantee the redistribution does not violate US export regulations. Obviously, this is not the case for the OBS.
I still wonder why US law drives a libre project...but I'm not a lawyer.
OTOH, data is still transferred to US, although there is no legal ground for it (see Schrems-II) - and most companies give a f*** about it.
As long as oracleclient is listed on the Wiki page, and not cleared by the legal department, it should be removed.
I have put this on the agenda for the next Board meeting - I feel board should drive the clarification
Has this been discussed in the mean time? If searching for x264, x265, mplayer, dvdcss, full ffmpeg, skype, ... there are dozens of matches for each one. Filing delete requests is apparently not an option, as the typical response is a rude answer. Regards, Stefan
Hello Stefan, Am Freitag, 30. Dezember 2022, 16:32:10 CET schrieb Stefan Brüns:
On Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 09:55:44 CET Axel Braun wrote:
I have put this on the agenda for the next Board meeting - I feel board should drive the clarification
Has this been discussed in the mean time?
Yes, see https://en.opensuse.org/Archive:Board_meeting_2022-12-05 Cheers Axel
On Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2023 14:46:20 CET Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Stefan,
Am Freitag, 30. Dezember 2022, 16:32:10 CET schrieb Stefan Brüns:
On Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 09:55:44 CET Axel Braun wrote:
I have put this on the agenda for the next Board meeting - I feel board should drive the clarification
Has this been discussed in the mean time?
Yes, see https://en.opensuse.org/Archive:Board_meeting_2022-12-05
If searching for x264, x265, mplayer, dvdcss, full ffmpeg, skype, ...
Tanks for bringing this up. So, some cases need clarification from Legal ... there are dozens of matches for each one. How about these? Obviously, redistributing these is considered to also violate EU and/or German laws. Regards, Stefan
Am Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2023, 15:17:21 CET schrieb Stefan Brüns:
On Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2023 14:46:20 CET Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Stefan,
Am Freitag, 30. Dezember 2022, 16:32:10 CET schrieb Stefan Brüns:
On Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 09:55:44 CET Axel Braun wrote:
I have put this on the agenda for the next Board meeting - I feel board should drive the clarification
Has this been discussed in the mean time?
Yes, see https://en.opensuse.org/Archive:Board_meeting_2022-12-05
Tanks for bringing this up. So, some cases need clarification from Legal ...
If searching for x264, x265, mplayer, dvdcss, full ffmpeg, skype, ...
there are dozens of matches for each one.
How about these? Obviously, redistributing these is considered to also violate EU and/or German laws.
Hello Stefan, why are you so keen on this? What's in it for you? Profiling or why do you do that? @Axel Please get clarification if this is valid for all repos, so also for the home repos. Or e.g. that the OracleClient is only not allowed in the "official" repos, but in the home repos it is. Oh, one more thing. I can also just get the OracleClient from Oracle. It is not built in the package. It is so to say a bin package in which the Oracle files are simply packed, nothing else. And with the other examples mentioned, one should clarify whether the data are still current or whether there in the last years something changed. Because at least for me as a layman, I can sometimes see no problems, because GPL etc.. Thanks for your efforts. Regards Eric
Hello Eric, Am Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2023, 15:51:51 CET schrieb Eric Schirra:
@Axel Please get clarification if this is valid for all repos, so also for the home repos. Or e.g. that the OracleClient is only not allowed in the "official" repos, but in the home repos it is.
This topic is addressed to SUSE legal, however, as we just learned that Ciaran has left SUSE it may take a while to get an answer. Gerald Pfeifer, Board Chair, is driving this SUSE-internally Cheers Axel
On Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2023 15:17:21 CEST Stefan Brüns wrote:
On Donnerstag, 5. Januar 2023 14:46:20 CET Axel Braun wrote:
Hello Stefan,
Am Freitag, 30. Dezember 2022, 16:32:10 CET schrieb Stefan Brüns:
On Donnerstag, 24. November 2022 09:55:44 CET Axel Braun wrote:
I have put this on the agenda for the next Board meeting - I feel board should drive the clarification
Has this been discussed in the mean time?
Yes, see https://en.opensuse.org/Archive:Board_meeting_2022-12-05
Tanks for bringing this up. So, some cases need clarification from Legal ...
If searching for x264, x265, mplayer, dvdcss, full ffmpeg, skype, ...
Unfortunately I don't see any progress here, the latest mention I could find is in https://en.opensuse.org/Archive:Board_meeting_2023-01-02
there are dozens of matches for each one.
How about these? Obviously, redistributing these is considered to also violate EU and/or German laws.
Still plenty of hits violating https://en.opensuse.org/ openSUSE:Build_Service_application_blacklist https://build.opensuse.org/search?search_text=x264&search_for=2&name=1 https://build.opensuse.org/search?search_text=x265&search_for=2&name=1 Regards, Stefan
participants (5)
-
Axel Braun -
David Nichols -
Eric Schirra -
Jan Engelhardt -
Stefan Brüns