[Bug 808315] New: RFC: No longer install HPLIP and other big printer driver packages by default?
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c0 Summary: RFC: No longer install HPLIP and other big printer driver packages by default? Classification: openSUSE Product: openSUSE Factory Version: 13.1 Milestone 0 Platform: All OS/Version: SUSE Other Status: NEW Severity: Enhancement Priority: P5 - None Component: Printing AssignedTo: coolo@suse.com ReportedBy: jsmeix@suse.com QAContact: jsmeix@suse.com Found By: Development Blocker: No This is a request for comments whether or not it is nowadays still needed to "fill up" by default any user's harddisk when HPLIP (and other big printer driver packages like Gutenprint) are installed unconditioned in our default system. The advantage when all usual printer driver packages are installed by default is that usual printer setup works without the need to get and install printer driver packages. Actual disk usage of HPLIP and Gutenprint on openSUSE 12.3 i586: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- # du -hc $( for f in $( rpm -ql hplip hplip-hpijs hplip-sane ) ; \ do test -f $f && echo $f ; done ) | tail -n1 28M total # du -hc $( for f in $( rpm -ql gutenprint ) ; \ do test -f $f && echo $f ; done ) | tail -n1 50M total ----------------------------------------------------------------------- RPM "Size" for HPLIP and Gutenprint on openSUSE 12.3 i586 and x86_64: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- hplip-3.12.11-2.2.1.i586.rpm Size : 10420581 hplip-3.12.11-2.2.1.x86_64.rpm Size : 10432287 hplip-hpijs-3.12.11-2.2.1.i586.rpm Size : 14418324 hplip-hpijs-3.12.11-2.2.1.x86_64.rpm Size : 14418724 hplip-sane-3.12.11-2.2.1.i586.rpm Size : 158720 hplip-sane-3.12.11-2.2.1.x86_64.rpm Size : 151782 gutenprint-5.2.9-3.1.1.i586.rpm Size : 42582349 gutenprint-5.2.9-3.1.1.x86_64.rpm Size : 43145887 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- On the one hand on nowadays physical harddisks 28M and 50M is not really much but on the other hand harddisk space could be of more interest on virtual machines and there is the general issue to what extent it makes sense to install software unconditioned by default. Since some time the hplip-hpijs and gutenprint RPMs contain long lists of RPM provides of the form postscriptdriver(<manufacturer>;<model>;) According to bnc#735864 and bnc#735865 this seems to support some kind of automated printer driver package search - but I am really no expert here. I assume that automated printer driver package search requires automated printer model detection but printer model detection basically only works well for locally connected printers (i.e. USB printers) but it cannot work when the actual printer device is "hidden" in the network behind whatever kind of printer "share" (e.g. a LPD print queue on a printserver box or router box or a Windows/SMB printer share or whatever else). -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c1 Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summary|RFC: No longer install |RFC: No longer install big |HPLIP and other big printer |printer driver packages |driver packages by default? |like HPLIP and Gutenprint | |by default? --- Comment #1 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> 2013-03-12 10:01:17 CET --- OBS request 158147 https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/158147 is the answer regarding HPLIP: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Changed patterns-openSUSE.changes ... +Sun Mar 10 07:32:23 UTC 2013 - coolo@suse.com ... +Stephan Kulow (1): + do not install hplip by default any longer (bnc#649280) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Changed patterns-openSUSE.spec ... Recommends: gutenprint -Recommends: hplip ... Recommends: gutenprint -Recommends: hplip ... Recommends: gutenprint -Recommends: hplip ... Recommends: gutenprint -Recommends: hplip --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wonder why gutenprint is still installed by default? Gutenprint is almost twice as big as HPLIP (see comment #0). I think for openSUSE Factory / openSUSE 13.1 Milestone 0 we should try out if it is o.k. to no longer install big printer driver packages by default. Stephan Kulow, if you agree, please also remove the "Recommends: gutenprint" so that we could get feedback from openSUSE Factory users and openSUSE 13.1 Milestone 0 users whether or not this change is o.k. Of course such a change will result some complaints from some users. The crucial point is what the right default is for most users. The general question behind this kind of change is: Do most users expect that by default drivers for "all and everything" are already installed or do most users anticipate that they may have to get and install driver packages before they can use this or that piece of hardware?
From a Windows point of view the answer is clear ;-)
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c2 --- Comment #2 from Stephan Kulow <coolo@suse.com> 2013-03-12 12:03:44 CET --- the problem with hplip is not the install size (hard drives are cheap, even SSDs have <1€ per GB), the problem is that hplip installs something to the startup sequence, which is something different than what gutenprint offers. But yes, we can remove the printers and see how far we get. But from my tests with usb autoconfigure, it will be a desaster. I have a "brother hl-2130" at home and when I implemented the support for postscriptdriver() in the PK backend, I had to learn that these are the driver provides for hl-2*: postscriptdriver(brother;brother_hl-2460_series;) postscriptdriver(brother;brother_hl-2600cn_series;) postscriptdriver(brother;brother_hl-2700cn_series;) postscriptdriver(brother;hl-2030_series;) postscriptdriver(brother;hl-2040_series;) postscriptdriver(brother;hl-2140_series;) None of that matches, so I get no printer driver installed. And without printer driver installed, you get no choice from yast (I use the printer for 2030 just fine). Of course the printer is actually attached to a NAS box, so my laptop knows nothing about the printer, beside that it's a smb:/ one. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c3 --- Comment #3 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> 2013-03-12 15:43:13 CET --- The problem with (almost) all driver software from hardware manufacturers is that they make their software as they think is best for their users which is not necessarily best for a Linux distributor. I do not have the time to investigate for each new version of HPLIP what HP might have changed that is no longer o.k. for us as Linux distributor, patch it, and maintain all our own patches continuously. It was pure luck that I found the change in https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=649280#c10 I would prefer if we could distribute free software from hardware manufacturers basically "as is". The current issue in HPLIP is only because HP's point of view (only users with a HP device install HPLIP) and our point of view (we install HPLIP unconditioned for all users) are different. Strictly speaking HP's point of view is more correct because why should someone without a HP device install HPLIP? We never really worked on developing a reasonable solution how to install only matching driver software packages. Obviously only relying on automatisms cannot work. Because the automatism often fails, we currently simply install almost all printer driver packages by default. But why don't we install e.g. "splix" (only 4 MB) also by default? I think this is because the number of users who cannot "just set up a Samsung SPL printer" (i.e. without the need to get and install "splix" before) is so low that it seems we can ignore them. But why are users with Samsung SPL printers treated different than users with HP or Epson printers? For openSUSE 13.1 I like to think about a reasonable solution how to install only matching printer driver software packages. I think I can do something in yast2-printer. The current "Add Driver" dialog in yast2-printer is not really a good solution to install matching driver software packages. It works o.k. when one knows the RPM package name but it is not really helpful if the user only knows his printer model name. The "Add Driver" dialog was never meant for this use case. (Its main use case is that the user can remove unwanted printer driver software packages because we install almost all those packages by default.) yast2-printer is currently run at the end of the installation and I think I can do something at that time to install reasonably matching driver software packages at least for locally connected printers (i.e. USB printers). Something like: If there is a HP USB printer, install HPLIP. If there is a Brother or Canon or Epson USB printer, install Gutenprint. If there is a Samsung USB printer, install Gutenprint and Splix. ... I.e. not model specific but manufacturer specific. Of course this is not THE ultimate final solution for everybody but it could be a reasonable starting point... -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c4 --- Comment #4 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> 2013-03-13 16:57:58 CET --- I asked on the yast-devel@opensuse.org mailing list regarding "Install RPMs in 'second stage' via printer_proposal.ycp" and Ladislav Slezak's response looks very promising, see http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2013-03/msg00005.html In short: The YaST sound module does a very similar thing already. The major difference is that the sound card is always built-in in the PC so that sound card model detection should work much more reliable than printer model detection, see the last paragraph in comment#0. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c5 --- Comment #5 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> 2013-09-13 15:03:03 CEST --- FYI: Since only hplip-hpijs is installed by default (but hplip is no longer installed by default) there is bnc#837770 (fixed today): The AddDriverDialog in yast2-printer worked inconsistently regarding HPLIP RPMs (hplip-hpijs versus hplip). The real solution will be implemented later (after openSUSE 13.1) according to what I described in comment#3 above. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c6 --- Comment #6 from Stephan Kulow <coolo@suse.com> 2013-09-27 11:05:09 CEST --- what's left for me to do in here? :) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c7 Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |NEEDINFO InfoProvider| |coolo@suse.com AssignedTo|coolo@suse.com |jsmeix@suse.com Summary|RFC: No longer install big |RFC: No longer install |printer driver packages |printer driver RPMs when no |like HPLIP and Gutenprint |printer was autodetected? |by default? | --- Comment #7 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> 2013-09-27 13:57:15 CEST --- Stephan Kulow, nothing should be changed now for 13.1. But for 13.2 we may think about to really no longer install any printer driver packages by default if no printer was autodetected. For cases as your "brother hl-2130" that is "hidden behind something" so that it cannot be autodetected, the YaST printer module dialogs (in particular the "Add Driver" dialog together with the "Add printer configuration" dialog) need some re-design so that users are better guided to printer driver package installation. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c8 --- Comment #8 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@suse.com> 2014-05-13 10:28:28 CEST --- Regarding YaST printer module dialogs re-design, see https://features.opensuse.org/316789 "Fundamental re-design how to set up the whole printing stuff" -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=808315#c9 Stephan Kulow <coolo@suse.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEEDINFO |NEW CC| |coolo@suse.com InfoProvider|coolo@suse.com | --- Comment #9 from Stephan Kulow <coolo@suse.com> 2014-09-17 16:13:39 CEST --- still no idea what info is expected on this NEEDINFO -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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