[Bug 486755] New: buggy keyboard maps for Macintosh
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 Summary: buggy keyboard maps for Macintosh Classification: openSUSE Product: openSUSE 11.1 Version: Final Platform: Macintosh OS/Version: openSUSE 11.1 Status: NEW Severity: Normal Priority: P5 - None Component: X.Org AssignedTo: bnc-team-xorg-bugs@forge.provo.novell.com ReportedBy: BastisEmail@yahoo.de QAContact: xorg-maintainer-bugs@forge.provo.novell.com Found By: --- User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; de; rv:1.9.0.6) Gecko/2009012700 SUSE/3.0.6-0.1 Firefox/3.0.6 This is a hopeful attempt to get useful keyboard layouts in the subsequent versions. We use a MacPro (2008 edition) with Apple's standard USB keyboard. On Ubuntu 8.10 everything works fine: o APPLE keys emulate ALT o deadgraveacute is automatically set for letters like '´e' (here it is not working as you can see) o € and @ are at the right places. o multimedia keys like volume up/down, brightness up/down and importantly EJECT CD work! On OpenSuse 11.0 I configured Sax2 as "Macintosh" keyboard, "German", "deadgraveacute" o APPLE keys emulate ALT o € and @ are possible, but with the ALT keys (not with APPLE) o "<" and "^" are exchanged! o multimedia keys are NOT working On OpenSuse 11.1 it got worse: o ALT remains ALT o no € possible o "^" and "<" exchanged o multimedia keys NOT working When changing to "generic 105 keys (intl).", "German", "deadgraveacute" I was at least able to reenable "€" and "@" In the end my keyboard is neither PC, not Apple. It would be great if openSuse 11.2 at least supports pure PC or pure APPLE modes. Maybe you can "borrow" some knowledge from Ubuntu which is working great on Mac? Reproducible: Always Steps to Reproduce: 1. 2. 3. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User markgray+to-suse@puck.nac.net added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c1 Mark Gray <markgray+to-suse@puck.nac.net> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |NEEDINFO CC| |markgray+to-suse@puck.nac.n | |et Info Provider| |BastisEmail@yahoo.de --- Comment #1 from Mark Gray <markgray+to-suse@puck.nac.net> 2009-03-19 04:31:13 MST --- Please attach the relevant information requested on the webpages: http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs:X and http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs/SaX2 (Information on how ubuntu configured X for you might be helpful, but probably isn't necessary.) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User ro@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c3 Ruediger Oertel <ro@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEEDINFO |NEW Info Provider|BastisEmail@yahoo.de | --- Comment #3 from Ruediger Oertel <ro@novell.com> 2009-03-20 02:57:14 MST --- hm, I'm on factory and on a MacBookPro with a german keyboard. multimedia-keys are usually not dependant on the x keyboard layout but on other things like the used desktop or other apps like pommed to drive actions when the keys are pressed. Alt-e gives € here, but ALT is on the apple-key currently I have the keyboard layout set in KDE, it displays the used commandline as: setxkbmap -model macbook79 -layout de -variant "Keyboard model MacBook/MacBookPro (intl)", Layout "de" -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c4 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |NEEDINFO Info Provider| |BastisEmail@yahoo.de --- Comment #4 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-03-20 03:11:03 MST --- Thanks for your input, Rudi. Still we need some more information by the reporter. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c5 --- Comment #5 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-03-20 11:32:16 MST --- (In reply to comment #1)
(Information on how ubuntu configured X for you might be helpful, but probably isn't necessary.)
Actually the output of 'setxkbmap -print' on Ubuntu would be *very* helpful. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- AssignedTo|bnc-team-xorg-bugs@forge.pr |xorg-maintainer-bugs@forge. |ovo.novell.com |provo.novell.com -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c6 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEEDINFO |RESOLVED Info Provider|BastisEmail@yahoo.de | Resolution| |NORESPONSE --- Comment #6 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-03-26 08:53:53 MST --- Still waiting for a response for at least a week. Please reopen once you can provide the requested feedback. Thanks. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User BastisEmail@yahoo.de added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c7 --- Comment #7 from Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> 2009-03-27 09:56:50 MST --- Sorry for the late response. You were simply to fast in responding - I will try to clear up the report and fill it with details: ########################################################## Ubuntu: $ setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "evdev+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+de(deadgraveacute)+inet(evdev)" }; xkb_geometry { include "pc(pc105)" }; }; Behaviour: "é" is working ALT is on Alt € and @ are on right-Alt-E and right-Alt-Q {[]} are on right-Alt-(7890) (^°) and (<>) are exchanged, that is <WRONG> as well. ########################################################## openSuse: First: During installation it was not recognized by the setup application that the package "pbbuttonsd" must be installed. After installing this, the problems were greatly reduced!!! I believe, this is where Ubuntu passes openSuse. ########################################################## Second (openSuse) setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "xfree86+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+de(deadgraveacute)+inet(logitech_g15)" }; xkb_geometry { include "pc(pc104)" }; }; Using this I have the following situations: ALT is on Alt "é" is working. € and @ are on right-Alt-E and right-Alt-Q {[]} are on right-Alt-(7890) (^°) and (<>) are exchanged, that is <WRONG> as well. ########################################################## It would be good to have ALT on Cmd € and @ may be on right-Cmd-E and right-Cmd-Q or on Alt-E/Alt-L (latter is better) Also the brackets {[]} could be Apple-like (Alt-7890), the same goes for "~|" etc. The problem not having ALT on Cmd is 1st, that I am not accustomed to this (but one can get used to it) and 2nd and more importantly: consistently. When switchign from X to shell #2 I have to press Ctrl+Alt+2, when switching from any text shell I have to press Ctrl+Cmd+2. ########################################################## 3rd: (openSuse) setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "xfree86+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+de(nodeadkeys)" }; xkb_geometry { include "pc(pc105)" }; }; The same as case 2, but nodeadkeys ########################################################## 4th: openSuse setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "macintosh+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de(nodeadkeys)+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(apple)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macintosh)" }; }; ALT is on Cmd -> good "é" is NOT working -> nodeadkeys € and @ are on Alt-E and Alt-L -> Mac-like good {[]}~| are Mac-like -> good (^°) and (<>) are exchanged, that is <WRONG> as well. ########################################################## 4th: openSuse setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "macintosh+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de(deadgraveacute)+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(apple)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macintosh)" }; }; ALMOST NOTHING WORKS!!! ALT is on Alt; but I can not switch to a text shell anymore by either Ctrl+Alt+2 or Ctrl+Cmd+2!!!! "'e" is NOT working -> WRONG (deadgraveacute) € and @ are NOT working (neither on Alt+L, Cmd+L, Alt+Q, Cmd+Q, Right-Cmd+Q, Right-Cmd+Q) {[]}~| are NOT working (^°) and (<>) are exchanged, that is <WRONG> as well. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User BastisEmail@yahoo.de added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c8 Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED Resolution|NORESPONSE | --- Comment #8 from Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> 2009-03-27 09:57:53 MST --- I forgot to reopne this bug report -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|REOPENED |ASSIGNED -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c9 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|ASSIGNED |NEEDINFO Info Provider| |BastisEmail@yahoo.de --- Comment #9 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-03-27 10:10:33 MST --- Could you give the settings of Rüdiger Oertel a try? Thanks. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User BastisEmail@yahoo.de added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c10 --- Comment #10 from Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> 2009-03-30 01:33:48 MDT --- ########################################################## Settings of Ruediger Oertel: setxkbmap -model macbook79 -layout de -variant "Keyboard model MacBook/MacBookPro (intl)", Layout"de" setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "macintosh+macintosh(goodmap)+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(apple)+level3(enter_switch)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macbook79)" }; }; ALT is on Cmd -> good "é" is working -> good € and @ are on Alt-E and Alt-L -> Mac-like good {[]}~| are Mac-like -> good (^°) and (<>) are exchanged, that is <WRONG> as well. ########################################################## For me, this is the best solution so far. Still I have 2 issues with it: (1) The ^°/<> keys are wrong (2) Some assistance would be good. Using sax2 I would never figure out to chose this config :( Thanks for all the advice! -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c11 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Info Provider|BastisEmail@yahoo.de |ro@novell.com --- Comment #11 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-03-30 02:36:20 MDT ---
For me, this is the best solution so far. Still I have 2 issues with it: (1) The ^°/<> keys are wrong
Rudi, same for you? Any hints? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User ro@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c12 Ruediger Oertel <ro@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEEDINFO |ASSIGNED Info Provider|ro@novell.com | --- Comment #12 from Ruediger Oertel <ro@novell.com> 2009-03-30 04:39:02 MDT --- no issues with these keys here. On my MacBookPro, these keys are: "<>" (between "left SHIFT" and "y" keys) "^°" (left of the "1!" key) and both are working correctly. However, this is no longer the setting I had above (currently I've lost the "nodeadkeys" setting and didn't find the time yet to find out how to enable that again). Current:
setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "evdev+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(evdev)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macbook79)" }; };
-- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c13 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|ASSIGNED |NEEDINFO Info Provider| |ro@novell.com --- Comment #13 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-03-30 04:48:10 MDT --- Rudi, can you still figure out the setxkbmap command line? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User ro@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c14 Ruediger Oertel <ro@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEEDINFO |ASSIGNED Info Provider|ro@novell.com | --- Comment #14 from Ruediger Oertel <ro@novell.com> 2009-03-31 03:24:54 MDT --- okay, without "nodeadkeys": setxkbmap -model macbook79 -layout de -variant resulting setting: # setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "evdev+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(evdev)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macbook79)" }; }; with "nodeadkeys": setxkbmap -model macbook79 -layout de -variant nodeadkeys resulting setting: # setxkbmap -print xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "evdev+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de(nodeadkeys)+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(evdev)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macbook79)" }; }; -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c15 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|ASSIGNED |NEEDINFO Info Provider| |BastisEmail@yahoo.de --- Comment #15 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-03-31 03:38:20 MDT --- Thanks, Rudi! Sebastian, could you give these settings a try? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User BastisEmail@yahoo.de added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c16 Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEEDINFO |ASSIGNED Info Provider|BastisEmail@yahoo.de | --- Comment #16 from Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> 2009-04-01 09:03:32 MDT --- I can not reproduce this: setxkbmap -model macbook79 -layout de -variant "" gives me a different layout, that is: xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "macintosh+macintosh(goodmap)+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(apple)+level3(enter_switch)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macbook79)" }; }; Still, it seems that this is deadgraveacute (é works) and </^ are still wrong. ###### Using the second option $ setxkbmap -model macbook79 -layout de -variant nodeadkeys leads to xkb_keymap { xkb_keycodes { include "macintosh+macintosh(goodmap)+aliases(qwertz)" }; xkb_types { include "complete+numpad(mac)" }; xkb_compat { include "complete" }; xkb_symbols { include "pc+macintosh_vndr/de(nodeadkeys)+altwin(swap_lalt_lwin)+level3(alt_switch)+inet(apple)+level3(enter_switch)" }; xkb_geometry { include "macintosh(macbook79)" }; }; Again this differs from Ruediger's setting :( No é gives ´e (nodeadkeys) and < and ° are still on the wrong keys. Please note: I do not use a MacBookPro I use a MacPro and a recent iMac with an external aluminium USB keyboard (model number A1243) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c17 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|ASSIGNED |NEEDINFO Info Provider| |BastisEmail@yahoo.de --- Comment #17 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-04-01 09:28:57 MDT --- Hmm. Rudi is already using xkeyboard-config 1.5. You can find it on http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/XOrg/openSUSE_11.1/noarch/ Could you give it a try? Thanks. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c18 --- Comment #18 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-04-01 09:30:07 MDT ---
Please note: I do not use a MacBookPro I use a MacPro and a recent iMac with an external aluminium USB keyboard (model number A1243)
Ouch! -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User BastisEmail@yahoo.de added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c19 Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEEDINFO |ASSIGNED Info Provider|BastisEmail@yahoo.de | --- Comment #19 from Sebastian Wolff <BastisEmail@yahoo.de> 2009-04-01 10:43:22 MDT --- Using version 1.5 I can reproduce Rüdiger's output. Still, the keys <° are wrong. I tried most of the other keys and checked if they behave like expected. The only issue concerns multimedia keys. On MacOS, the key <F10> means [Mute]. [F10] is obtained by <Cmd>+<F10>. The current setting regarding the F-keys is okay in terms of <F10> means [F10] The problem is: I don't have any idea how to invoke [Mute]. Shouldn't it be that <Cmd>+<F10> means [Mute]? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755 User sndirsch@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486755#c20 Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|ASSIGNED |RESOLVED Resolution| |WONTFIX --- Comment #20 from Stefan Dirsch <sndirsch@novell.com> 2009-04-01 10:54:09 MDT --- I'm afraid I don't have the appropriate knowledge and hardware for getting this fixed. :-( I suggest to discuss this on one of the opensuse mailing lists and add it to the documentation of our opensuse wiki once a solution has been found. Thanks for the report. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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