http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372 Dr. Werner Fink changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Assignee|bnc-team-gnome@forge.provo. |zaitor@opensuse.org |novell.com | -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372#c1 Bjørn Lie changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |RESOLVED Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME --- Comment #1 from Bjørn Lie --- Read back the bug ref'ed in patch name. My final words in that bug were that I'd work around it in GNOME. Are you surprised that I did? The patch was the least bit of disruption I could do to achieve what I wanted for GNOME, as the other option was to nuke all xdm out of default GNOME installs (I still have a branch for that goal, but that has so far not been needed, nor is it finished). When met with hostility, I responded in kind. Feel free to undo the patch on your own machine, or switch to SLE, as I made sure it was only applied on openSUSE. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372#c3 --- Comment #3 from Bjørn Lie --- (In reply to Egbert Eich from comment #2)

(In reply to Bjørn Lie from comment #1)

...

Read back the bug ref'ed in patch name.

My final words in that bug were that I'd work around it in GNOME. Are you surprised that I did?

The patch was the least bit of disruption I could do to achieve what I wanted for GNOME, as the other option was to nuke all xdm out of default GNOME installs (I still have a branch for that goal, but that has so far not been needed, nor is it finished).

When met with hostility, I responded in kind.

This is not quite what I recollect. I made several constructive suggestions but did not get any reponse from you. Nothing. I sent you email in private to discuss this matter. No response either. In the end, I even implemented the changes when I had to touch the xdm package the next time. Still no response.

This is not what I consider 'kindness', sorry.

To clear up a "lost in translation" issue: ### Respond in kind to behave to someone in the same way that they have behaved to you Example: They responded in kind, threatening to ban imports from Japan. ### And Egbert that is correct, you did do all that, but that was after I got annoyed, and went on my way patching it in gdm. By then I was unfortunately no longer interested in solving it in a amicable way. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372#c5 --- Comment #5 from Bjørn Lie --- (In reply to Dr. Werner Fink from comment #4)

(In reply to Bjørn Lie from comment #3)

Please accept my excuse. I'm also fine if you call me an idot or title my a fool. Please do not ban all users having an own ~/.xsession from using gdm due to my choosen words in past.

Accepted, and by all means, I've been combative too, so I'm no way without fault. Ok - fine I'll file a drop for the patch. But answer me this, why would a user launch gdm as loginmanager, when this means he has to run gnome-shell, and then log in to a older type vm/session? Note that even after login, gnome-shell keeps running for gdm drude:~ # ps aux | grep gnome-shell gdm 702 0.1 1.5 1507352 124012 tty7 Sl+ 09:59 0:08 /usr/bin/gnome-shell bjolie 1415 3.4 3.3 1999636 269560 tty2 Rl+ 09:59 4:30 /usr/bin/gnome-shell I suspect that the number of user using this will fast get close to zero. ---- I humbly ask that you will both reconsider the decision to install xdm-xsession by default as I sincerely fail to see the benefit for our users that there is a ever growing list of login options by default. See my comment 9 in bug that brought this patch around in the first place. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372#c7 --- Comment #7 from Dr. Werner Fink --- (In reply to Bjørn Lie from comment #5)

But answer me this, why would a user launch gdm as loginmanager, when this means he has to run gnome-shell, and then log in to a older type vm/session?

Here around there are multi user workstations/servers with gdm with NFS share automounting the user's HOME. The small idea was to allow users here and elsewhere to use their personal ~/.xsession scripts.

I humbly ask that you will both reconsider the decision to install xdm-xsession by default as I sincerely fail to see the benefit for our users that there is a ever growing list of login options by default.

Egbert had already this idea and I have no problem with this. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372
http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372#c9

--- Comment #9 from Dominique Leuenberger  ---
(In reply to Egbert Eich from comment #8)

> Not only that. Each user may have its own preference of sessions.
> I use xfce for instance, others use Gnome or Plasma. You cannot give
> everyone her or his pet DM, however, letting people select which session to
> use should be possible.
> Then of course there are the 'power users' - like Werner: these people have
> their carefull hand crafted session which has evolved over years.

Most DMs (incl. GDM) store what session type a user last started and default
back to the same - the info is stored inside the users home directory. So this
type of user does not need a .xsession file to get going

> So, my idea was, to have a selection, which gives both the Werners of this
> world the power to do 'their thing' and at the same time let the
> 'inexperienced user' pick what is the sysadmin's choice (ie what has been
> specified in /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager') - which will hopefully then be
> supported by this sysadmin.

This is the main part I understood - but that by itself does not mean we have
to install it by default on every users machine at home... such a sysadmin
should well be able to add this package on his own (I can see that for SLE this
might be more appealing - so there might be a viable difference in recommending
xdm-xsession on SLE, not doing so on openSUSE)

> Currently it is a 'Supplements' to xdm. You could make it conflict with gdm,
> however in this case one would not install it without YaST or zypper
> complaining heavily. I agree: when there is only one session (ie Gnome) is
> installed one should probably not offer any selection menu at all - unless
> of course you have a power-Werner ;) among your users. 
> However, as soon as you have an administrated multi user system with the
> choice among Gnome and Xfce for instance, having an entry with the
> 'sysadmin's recommendation' is not all that bad.

We really don't want to conflict - then Bjorn can as well just keep the patch
in, as in no way would gdm show the xsession type.

>From my PoV, I'd suggest:
* do only supplement xdm-xsession on xdm on SLE - where the chance of
multi-user systems is much highere
* on openSUSE, the package is provided in the repos so that users such as
Werner can fulfill their need by installing it

Thoughts?

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http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372#c11 --- Comment #11 from Dominique Leuenberger --- (In reply to Egbert Eich from comment #10)

(In reply to Dominique Leuenberger from comment #9)

...

Most DMs (incl. GDM) store what session type a user last started and default back to the same - the info is stored inside the users home directory. So this type of user does not need a .xsession file to get going

Dominique, this is not correct. A .xsession file is not to set a standard session. What Werner is talking about is a .xsession file which starts a hand crafted session - hand crafted over years. This is what (some) power users do.

I understand that - yet, it's not what 99.9% of the openSUSE users are going to use - so xdm-xsession is not needed for those users. They are 'fine' with the usual way of switching session type and happy with the way the DM remembers what session type each user used last time - and log the user back in to the same session.

...

...

So, my idea was, to have a selection, which gives both the Werners of this world the power to do 'their thing' and at the same time let the 'inexperienced user' pick what is the sysadmin's choice (ie what has been specified in /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager') - which will hopefully then be supported by this sysadmin.

This is the main part I understood - but that by itself does not mean we have to install it by default on every users machine at home... such a sysadmin should well be able to add this package on his own (I can see that for SLE this might be more appealing - so there might be a viable difference in recommending xdm-xsession on SLE, not doing so on openSUSE)

This is always a balance issue: some of use feel annoyed that one has to install more and more 'power tools' by hand as the argument is always 'the average user doesn't need this, you as a power user can go this extra step'.

The GNOME Team and the GNOME Desktop want to have a usable, yet good looking user experience by default. Something that is used by 1% of the user base (as said, probably different in the SLE space) - makes no sense to be installed by default.

I don't know how to resolve this - maybe have a 'power user' selection somewhere?

Power User != Power User... you will end up with as many profiles as we have self-nominated power users; then we end aup with... autoyast - where everyone CAN already provide his own feature set.

This is why I tried to point out how this option is not only good for the power user but how it could serve a casual user as well.

the 'casual' user won't write an .xsession file to hand craft anything like that - quite sure about it.

...

...

Currently it is a 'Supplements' to xdm. You could make it conflict with gdm, however in this case one would not install it without YaST or zypper complaining heavily. I agree: when there is only one session (ie Gnome) is installed one should probably not offer any selection menu at all - unless of course you have a power-Werner ;) among your users. However, as soon as you have an administrated multi user system with the choice among Gnome and Xfce for instance, having an entry with the 'sysadmin's recommendation' is not all that bad.

We really don't want to conflict - then Bjorn can as well just keep the patch in, as in no way would gdm show the xsession type.

This is what Werner would like to avoid: all DMs should have the same behavior

All DMs are different by nature - I agree though that not having that patch is the goal to approach...

- of course xdm doesn't as this doesn't offer any selection of session type at all. I would not mind if Bjoern's patch ignores the xsession.desktop file if it is the only 'other' desktop file installed - in which case there should be no selection icon at all since having a selection with only one item to select from looks a bit stupid to me. As soon as more desktop options are offered, a 'default' choice makes sense.

Where the 'default' is not set by xdm-xsession - as GDM (and likely others) already read the system default out of /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager to set the default. So we are duplicating logic here. That 'System/User default' is a very interesting approach - but it is rather a large scale deployment issue than anything openSUSE needs to provide - having it there as an option is a nice thing - having it there by default is clutter. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=981372#c16 Dr. Werner Fink changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Flags|needinfo?(werner@suse.com) | --- Comment #16 from Dr. Werner Fink --- (In reply to Egbert Eich from comment #15) Maybe enhanced or user of old fvwm, twm or other stone aged window managers as many of the users of such WM do have an personal xsession -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.