https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162 User bobharvey@europe.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162#c2 --- Comment #2 from Robert Harvey <bobharvey@europe.com> 2008-09-21 15:33:38 MDT --- I didn't. I do now, and the problem is fixed. I had no idea it existed. But surely it should have been installed with KDE4.1 ? I thought the whole point of repositories & package managers was to protect users from this sort of thing? can't conceive of any circumstances where an ordinary user would want to install KDE without a method for using it. Good and speedy tip, I still reckon, on the basis of 'least astonishment', it shouldn't have been possible to get there. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162 User bobharvey@europe.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162#c4 --- Comment #4 from Robert Harvey <bobharvey@europe.com> 2008-09-22 00:51:58 MDT --- I used computer-install software. It asked for the root password for /sbin/tast2 --install . That got me to Yast Package selection. 'Available' was already selected. In the left hand list I selected KDE, and got a list as long as your arm. Recalling that the install disk had options for two kde desktops I searched for KDE4 in the Available list, and browsed for the shortest title. There wasn't one for just KDE4, but I did find KDE4-WIN. I took that to be the master. On selection it added a whole host of other stuff, leaving me feeling confident. Yhe rest you know. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162 User bobharvey@europe.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162#c6 --- Comment #6 from Robert Harvey <bobharvey@europe.com> 2008-09-22 08:42:05 MDT --- There is nothing called "KDE4 Base System" or "KDE4 Desktop System" in either the 'available' or 'installed' list. In any case, no guidance was provided to say that if you want a working KDE system you have to press 'this one' unlike the installer, which has a single selection.. Look, I'm not an idiot. I've been doing computing since the days of MP/M and the Databus programming language. I've been downloading and compiling tarballs for years. I just thought that using the repository and the package manager was "the way to do things" but it needs to be more straightforward and better documented if it is to be easy to use. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162 User bobharvey@europe.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162#c8 Robert Harvey <bobharvey@europe.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED Component|GNOME |YaST2 Resolution|INVALID | Summary|KDE not added to session list |KDE installation process not self-evident --- Comment #8 from Robert Harvey <bobharvey@europe.com> 2008-09-22 13:45:48 MDT --- Hmm. I wonder how I was supposed to know that? It is certainly not self-evident, and even now you have explained it I cannot see how the words "group" or "pattern" mean anything I could have guessed. Or yet understand. I selected "KDE desktop" and "install all" and it is currently installing a lot of stuff. It will be interesting if I have to do the base too, I expect not. I originally attributed this to Gnome, because I thought it was a GDM thing. It's not, it must be some other component - the package installation manager itself. I think that the package selection could be a lot clearer - like having a master KDE item that essentially means "start here". I think the vocabulary 'group' and 'pattern' is not self-evident. I will change the title appropriately I am also surprised that I was able to install the subcomponents without some warning that th res of the system was missing

KDE is comprised of a lot of packages (as is GNOME) I knew that. That's why I was expecting there to be some top-of-the-tree selection. I understood that was the purpose of over-arching package management.

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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162 User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162#c10 Ricardo Cruz <rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |sh@novell.com --- Comment #10 from Ricardo Cruz <rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt> 2008-09-29 09:58:47 MDT --- Robert, I certainly side with you that the situation as is isn't very intuitive, but I'm not sure the solution is to bloat the software manager even further. I think what would be desirable is to abandon the software manager as a tool for the desktop user tool, and present instead the user with an intuitive tool made to actually aid him in the process of discovering the desktop and its applications. The patterns could be an internal convenience and the software manager accessible as a fine tweaking tool, delegated to second plan. Furthermore, the user shouldn't really need to think about installing and removing programs. A desktop like KDE should be presented as an option in the Display Manager even if not installed. If the user chooses to run it, then it should be installed at the moment. This should be true for a lot of other programs as well: for instance, if no PDF reader is installed: still show a "PDF reader" option even if none is installed, and then ask the user which he wishes to try when he tries to run it. It would be installed transparently and readily available. Servers and other technical stuff should be installed by their respective yast tool, and all yast tools should be accessible even if they, or their required software, is not installed. Back to reality, I'm not sure what we can do in the software manager. You may like to know that the GTK UI currently places the categories/patterns combo box in a more visible spot, so you shouldn't miss it this time. Anyway, long-time users already know it, or at least are already very fond of a desktop (even CDs now only ship one desktop flavor), and newbies won't know they want to install KDE or Gnome. Stefan, won't fix? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162 User bobharvey@europe.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162#c12 --- Comment #12 from Robert Harvey <bobharvey@europe.com> 2008-09-29 13:37:11 MDT --- The tips sound simple. Tips might help with "I think the vocabulary 'group' and 'pattern' is not self-evident." That seems to be my root problem - there is something Humpty-Dumpty in the way the words are used. Some explanation - either by pop-up, or a small footnote on the panel, might make it clearer. Perhaps just starting in "Patterns" by default rather than "Group". Speaking as a maths graduate, I am still not clear what your groups are groups of, that your patterns are not. Maybe simplifying the words themselves would be all that is required? What were they called in 8.2? I don't remember this confusion then. I must say that the suggestions in Comment #10 are very interesting. As far as I understand it, like most GUI, the software manager is just a human-readable interface to zypper. So there could be another one - the simple one-button installer for popular or large scale projects - with a "more" button that calls the existing one. Or the shadow applications that self-install would be another interface. Clever. A lot of recent magazines about naive windows-linux conversion have concentrated on how surprised the unsuspecting are by the very idea of repositories and software managers. Perhaps a "catalogue" paradigm, like a paper mail-order catalogue, could be presented by some of these fantastic UI designers? A coloured section called "KDE" with 'get the base system' as a page-repeated heading, or tag, and with lots of individual applications with screen shots and writeups on each page. Differently coloured sections for gnome, mathematical tools, office applications, amateur radio, farming? That would have solved my problem, and help the newcomer to snuggle in more easily? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162 User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=428162#c14 --- Comment #14 from Ricardo Cruz <rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt> 2008-09-30 11:56:47 MDT --- (In reply to comment #12 from Robert Harvey)

The tips sound simple.

Added it.

Tips might help with "I think the vocabulary 'group' and 'pattern' is not self-evident."

That seems to be my root problem - there is something Humpty-Dumpty in the way the words are used. Some explanation - either by pop-up, or a small footnote on the panel, might make it clearer.

Added a tooltip to the type combo describing the several options.

Perhaps just starting in "Patterns" by default rather than "Group".

But the patterns are only available for a limited subset of the packages... Anyway, the groups is actually something Stefan (or Kulow) came up for 11.0. I think we barely need a plan of what we want groups and categories to be exactly, since the current situation is confusing, and hooking it up with the patterns seems like a very feasible project.

A lot of recent magazines about naive windows-linux conversion have concentrated on how surprised the unsuspecting are by the very idea of repositories and software managers. Perhaps a "catalogue" paradigm, like a paper mail-order catalogue, could be presented by some of these fantastic UI designers? A coloured section called "KDE" with 'get the base system' as a page-repeated heading, or tag, and with lots of individual applications with screen shots and writeups on each page. Differently coloured sections for gnome, mathematical tools, office applications, amateur radio, farming? That would have solved my problem, and help the newcomer to snuggle in more easily?

Ubuntu already does something like that: http://svn.opensuse.org/svn/yast/trunk/gtk/mockups/package-selector/ubuntu-a... Yeah, Suse barely needs something like this that could cooperate with its desktop menu systems. I like the idea of merging the menu editor with this, and also make it working with the mime-type system, so you can easily install the application for a format you're trying to open. Plus, Linux commercial vendors could really use an outlet for desktop programs that took the burden and assured the user the programs will function in any future upgrade of the system. I'm sure Novell could use the revenue as well, and they could allow the user to build music and other libraries from there. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.