[Bug 951898] New: fonts are ugly compared to Mint and Ubuntu
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898 Bug ID: 951898 Summary: fonts are ugly compared to Mint and Ubuntu Classification: openSUSE Product: openSUSE Distribution Version: Leap 42.1 RC1 1 Hardware: Other OS: Other Status: NEW Severity: Normal Priority: P5 - None Component: X.Org Assignee: xorg-maintainer-bugs@forge.provo.novell.com Reporter: vkrevs@yahoo.com QA Contact: xorg-maintainer-bugs@forge.provo.novell.com Found By: --- Blocker: --- Created attachment 653092 --> http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/attachment.cgi?id=653092&action=edit Linux MInt 17 fonts After a default install, fonts in openSUSE Leap look ugly compared to other modern distros such as MInt or Ubuntu - despite all the discussion in http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-08/msg00453.html. See attached screenshots. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c1
--- Comment #1 from Vadim Krevs
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c2
--- Comment #2 from Vadim Krevs
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Dominique Leuenberger
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c3
Stefan Dirsch
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c4
Felix Miata
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c5
--- Comment #5 from Vadim Krevs
From a normal user's perspective, looking at the screenshots side by side, openSUSE appears to use the smallest and blurriest fonts in the same or equivalent apps (DE-specific "application browser" menus, default browser menu and terminal font).
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Raul Malea
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c10
--- Comment #10 from Vadim Krevs
What is the outcome from the discussion?
Do you use subpixel rendering in the Ubuntu?
Have you tried to use yast2-fonts to adjust fonts to your needs? Try for example 'CFF fonts' preset maybe with Hintstyle=hintfull. Better?
Tried yast2-fonts with CFF-fonts and hintfull hintstyle. IMHO, the result is more inconsistency. Fonts in the KDE application menu look a bit better, but Firefox menu/tab title font now look very different from KDE application menu font. Virtually no effect on the default Konsole font. Screenshot attached. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c11
--- Comment #11 from Vadim Krevs
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c12
--- Comment #12 from Felix Miata
(In reply to Richard Brown from comment #7)
The outcome from the discussion was
Noto should be installed and the default for Serif and Sans Source Sans Pro should be installed and the default for Monospace
You mean Source Code Pro for monospace, right?
Note that for Source Code Pro to actually show up in the various available openSUSE DEs that either a lot of DE font templates will need to be changed, or (NAICT) the content in /usr/share/fonts-config/conf.avail/60-family-prefer.conf will need some tweaking. In this fresh E installation, I find this snippet there: <alias> <family>monospace</family> <prefer> <family>Consolas</family> <family>Liberation Mono</family> <family>DejaVu Sans Mono</family> <family>Droid Sans Mono</family> <family>Andale Mono</family> <family>Cousine</family> <family>SUSE Sans Mono</family> <family>Bitstream Vera Sans Mono</family> <family>Courier New</family> <family>Cumberland AMT</family> <family>Nimbus Mono L</family> <family>Luxi Mono</family> Total absence of Source Code Pro in that list means that it will never be seen on an installation unless it has been explicitly selected somehow, or another .conf overrides it. Any of the others in that list that are available on the installation, starting with Consolas, will be preferred over Source Code Pro when monospace is called. What's worse is that as the screenshot shows, particularly with Consolas (from the top of the list) available on that installation, apparent physical size for any given nominal size varies, not only by font family, but also by the DE's logical display density (more readily apparent by visiting using a selection of displays of various logical and physical densities). Byte code (where existant), hinting and antialiasing also play into apparent sizing, and apparent quality, so it takes a serious amount of experimentation to understand the real impact of any family selection change, and why there will be complaints consequent to change no matter what configuration is ultimately shipped. WRT apples-to-apples side-by-side comparisons of fonts other than those in the above URL, I suggest http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/fonts-comps-ui15.html for evaluating fonts being considered for UI, and various others available in http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/ for more general application. But to recap, the fontconfig generic preferences now are for the apparent largest common Sans font (DejaVu), apparent very small for Serif (Liberation Sans), and apparent smaller than average for monospace (Consolas).
Could you implement? might be too late for Leap GA but we could possibly do it as a maint update
Yes, will try as soon as I find time.
I would definitely not make any change at this late date or via maintenance. Font changes need much lead time for evaluation between proposal and release to know full impact, what complaints to expect, and how to respond to the inevitable complaints. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c14
Tomas Cech
Created attachment 653275 [details] 108 DPI screenshot from fresh Enlightenment on Leap installation
Clearly in this screenshot it can be seen there are font problems with Enlightenment. I never tried Enlightenment before last night, and have yet to figure out how to get basic usability problems sorted out in it. The large fonts in Xterm are a result of my setting to the largest possible size in ~/.Xresources. The rest of the font sizes on that screen are either defaults, or as declared by the web page.
Enlightenment doesn't respect X configuration, system configuration but in the wizard you can configure scaling (or later in control panels). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c15
--- Comment #15 from Felix Miata
Enlightenment doesn't respect X configuration, system configuration
The disrespect and scaling implementation are why I don't use Gnome or Cinnamon.
but in the wizard you can configure scaling (or later in control panels).
I tried the control panels after being displeased with and resetting the initial 1.2 wizard setting to 1.0, but everything at 1.0 is too small to figure out what to do or how it's supposed to work. Simply trying to figure it out is too painful because of how slow it is using Intel video, and the slowness makes it pointless to try to use E anyway. Here in this bug I was trying to point out pitfalls of making changes to fonts configuration to try to match other distros. Once hinting and subpixel are configured to taste, fonts on my fully configured openSUSE KDE and TDE installations look good (except for being gray where they ought to be black). My fontconfig preference stacks on fully configured installations are topped by Droid Sans, Droid Serif and Droid Sans Mono. One man's meat is another man's poison. Defaults changes can convert one to the other, making everybody work more to find or recover happiness. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c16
--- Comment #16 from Tomas Cech
(In reply to Tomas Cech from comment #14)
Enlightenment doesn't respect X configuration, system configuration
The disrespect and scaling implementation are why I don't use Gnome or Cinnamon.
but in the wizard you can configure scaling (or later in control panels).
I tried the control panels after being displeased with and resetting the initial 1.2 wizard setting to 1.0, but everything at 1.0 is too small to figure out what to do or how it's supposed to work. Simply trying to figure it out is too painful because of how slow it is using Intel video, and the slowness makes it pointless to try to use E anyway.
Here in this bug I was trying to point out pitfalls of making changes to fonts configuration to try to match other distros. Once hinting and subpixel are configured to taste, fonts on my fully configured openSUSE KDE and TDE installations look good (except for being gray where they ought to be black). My fontconfig preference stacks on fully configured installations are topped by Droid Sans, Droid Serif and Droid Sans Mono. One man's meat is another man's poison. Defaults changes can convert one to the other, making everybody work more to find or recover happiness.
Thank you for your valuable input. Unfortunately I don't plan to work on improvement. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c18
--- Comment #18 from Felix Miata
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c19
--- Comment #19 from Vadim Krevs
(In reply to Vadim Krevs from comment #10)
(In reply to Petr Gajdos from comment #6)
What is the outcome from the discussion?
Do you use subpixel rendering in the Ubuntu?
Have you tried to use yast2-fonts to adjust fonts to your needs? Try for example 'CFF fonts' preset maybe with Hintstyle=hintfull. Better?
Tried yast2-fonts with CFF-fonts and hintfull hintstyle. IMHO, the result is more inconsistency. Fonts in the KDE application menu look a bit better, but Firefox menu/tab title font now look very different from KDE application
That depends what the site is requesting. You can try uncheck 'Search metric compatible' in Prefered Families. The much stronger is 'Never use other fonts' but this should override even web fonts selection and also document selection.
menu font. Virtually no effect on the default Konsole font. Screenshot attached.
It looks like konsole have not reread font settings (look at the menu in your screenshot and compare with the firefox's one), try to restart it. If this doesn't work, then you which font Konsole uses and why.
Guys, I don't want to participate on the same discussion over again as several times from the time I maintain fontconfig. I also can't guide everyone how to set up fonts for their desktop or their program. I will do what's written in comment 7 and that's all -- if you don't want to play with your font setting, then use upcomming default, you are out of luck. If you want to play with fonts, use yast2-fonts (frontend for /etc/sysconfig/fonts-config) but you will have to invest some time and read the help of this module (or sysconfig file) at least. Try to choose your prefered font, install it and adjust rendering, which the module makes easier, I hope.
NO, there's nothing like default which would satisfy everyone. For example, I really had the request how to make the fonts slightly blurred, not sharp.
And NO, we can't use subpixel rendering by default.
Actually, I have logged off and logged back on after making the change in yast2-fonts, and started the browser and konsole again. There were no changes to the default (as set up by Leap) konsole font Oxygen Mono, regular, size 9. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c20
--- Comment #20 from Felix Miata
Actually, I have logged off and logged back on after making the change in yast2-fonts, and started the browser and konsole again. There were no changes to the default (as set up by Leap) konsole font Oxygen Mono, regular, size 9.
I would expect if you want to see the new global (Noto) defaults appear in UI and KDE apps, you would need to restore KDE fonts from their customized values to their original generic settings. In Fedora, except for Oxygen-Sans for titlebar, those are sans and monospace. From a fresh Leap installation, it looks like Plasma5 is explicitly configured for Oxygen across the board, so its template would need adjustment to replace Oxygens with either generics, or Noto specifically. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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Andrei Borzenkov
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c22
Frederic Crozat
(In reply to Petr Gajdos from comment #6)
What is the outcome from the discussion?
Do you use subpixel rendering in the Ubuntu?
Have you tried to use yast2-fonts to adjust fonts to your needs? Try for example 'CFF fonts' preset maybe with Hintstyle=hintfull. Better?
The outcome from the discussion was
Noto should be installed and the default for Serif and Sans Source Sans Pro should be installed and the default for Monospace
Could you implement? might be too late for Leap GA but we could possibly do it as a maint update
Sorry, coming back on this, since I did additional tests since the discussion: it look like we should better use a combinaison of Roboto + Noto for Sans and Serif (Roboto has been tuned for UI interface and is metric compatible with Noto, so Noto could still be used as fallback when glyphs are missing in Roboto) and keep Source Sans Pro for monospace. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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Ludwig Nussel
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c37
--- Comment #37 from Frederic Crozat
This is an autogenerated message for OBS integration: This bug (951898) was mentioned in https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/343878 Leap:42.1 / patterns-openSUSE.openSUSE_Leap_42.1_Update https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/343879 Leap:42.1 / fonts-config.openSUSE_Leap_42.1_Update
I'm not sure we should release such update for 42.1: it will change fonts on deployed desktop, by maintenance update. We should pile this for 42.2, IMHO. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c39
Andreas Stieger
I'm not sure we should release such update for 42.1: it will change fonts on deployed desktop, by maintenance update.
Provide an an optional update? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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yzT yzT
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c44
--- Comment #44 from Frederic Crozat
According to the attachments, it seems the ones who complained about the fonts were using KDE. Maybe this fix improved the fonts for them, but now Gnome users got a pretty bad font. It's smaller and seems to have "some glowing" effect.
Tests were done on GNOME (at least by me). Please attach a screenshot for your issue. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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--- Comment #45 from yzT yzT
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c46
--- Comment #46 from Frederic Crozat
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c47
--- Comment #47 from Andrei Borzenkov
I'm assuming by "glowing" you mean a bit fuzzy (which is caused by autohinter and antialiasing). I wonder if Source Code Pro Light or Source Code Pro Extralight (instead of Regular) would be better
It looks better (at least on this page) indeed; I was rather startled by new look of terminal window after update. What I find irritating in Source Code is that height of digits does not match height of capitals (at least, optically) so something like CONFIG_ZEN_DOM0 looked extremely weird. I compared it with Ubuntu (default, no customization) and there is definitely better (and was better before change). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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Hrvoje Senjan
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c49
--- Comment #49 from Felix Miata
Created attachment 657216 [details] New Leap font in Gnome
Which IRC client is that from?
This is how the fonts look in Gnome right now. It's significantly smaller and have some "glowing effect".
What does 'fc-match monospace' report? Is your IRC client configured to use a specific font other than that result? Is your Gnome fonts panel still showing monospace as the monospace selection? Some monospace fonts, like other fonts, render apparent smaller than some or most sizes than other fonts of same nominal size. e.g. Consolas, Inconsolata and Ubuntu Mono. http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/fonts-face-samplesM.html and/or http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/fonts-comps-linuxmono.html may help you evaluate why you're seeing apparent smaller, and whether or not you're seeing the new monospace default Source Code Pro. If you have MS Vista fonts available, it could be what you see in IRC is Consolas, as it's at the top of openSUSE's fontconfig monospace preference list (as it has been for years, in Leap in /etc/fonts/conf.d/60-family-prefer.conf, formerly in 58-suse-post-user.conf, e.g. in 13.1). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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Ahmed Ashraf
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c51
--- Comment #51 from yzT yzT
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c52
--- Comment #52 from Felix Miata
fc-match returns SourceCodePro-Medium.otf: "Source Code Pro" "Medium"
Did you write what you meant to write? Did you mean fc-match monospace returns SourceCodePro-Medium.otf: "Source Code Pro" "Medium" ???
Monospace font (in Gnome Tweak Tools) is defined as Monospace Regular. It
Monospace is most appropriately defined as the generic fixed pitch/fixed width font akin to serif and to sans-serif, used in both fontconfig and CSS. There is an actual font named Monospace that's part of a ghostscript package, which can cause inexplicable behavior.
looks like you replaced Monospace font with Source Code Pro, because if for
I didn't submit any patches to change Leap's font defaults. I'm an interested observer.
example I change the Terminal font (default to Monospace Regular) to Source Code Pro, it looks exactly the same.
This indicates the bug "fix" is working as intended, defining the fontconfig global monospace font as Source Code Pro, with nothing on your system to override it.
However, in any other distro, Monospace Regular looks like it must be.
I cannot parse this.
The IRC application is HexChat, but that's irrelevant, the same font is spread system-wide (e.g. Terminal or Gedit).
I just wanted to be sure the font wasn't defined within the IRC client rather than inheriting the fontconfig monospace definition. It indicates the "fix" is working as intended, defining the fontconfig global monospace font as Source Code Pro, with nothing on your system to override it. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c53
--- Comment #53 from yzT yzT
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c54
--- Comment #54 from Frederic Crozat
Yes, fc-match monospace returns SourceCodePro-Medium.otf: "Source Code Pro" "Medium"
No one has said the "fix" wasn't working. The problem is that it's actually working but only benefits KDE users (I know this first-hand because I have a Tumbleweed KDE system as well), while it harms Gnome users providing them with a worse font, smaller and not so easy on eyes.
Please, don't jump to conclusion, tests were done on GNOME (half or more of the people who worked on testing the feature are using GNOME). Maybe we should change GNOME default to use a bigger monospace font (or maybe we can "tweak" fontconfig to bump Source Code Pro size, with something similar to http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/41062/forcing-font-size-based-on-lan... ) But anyway, we should move this issue to a separate bug report. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c55
--- Comment #55 from Andrei Borzenkov
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c56
--- Comment #56 from Felix Miata
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PatrickD Garvey
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c57
Zhao Qiang 赵强
(In reply to Petr Gajdos from comment #6)
What is the outcome from the discussion?
Do you use subpixel rendering in the Ubuntu?
Have you tried to use yast2-fonts to adjust fonts to your needs? Try for example 'CFF fonts' preset maybe with Hintstyle=hintfull. Better?
The outcome from the discussion was
Noto should be installed and the default for Serif and Sans Source Sans Pro should be installed and the default for Monospace
Could you implement? might be too late for Leap GA but we could possibly do it as a maint update
Mr Richard: I think we can also merge Adobe Source * Sans fonts together this time. Source Han Sans is a set of OpenType/CFF Pan-CJK fonts, It's very beautiful to Chinese, Japanese, Korean and other east Asia countries. They are under the SIL Open Font License Version 1.1. See https://github.com/adobe-fonts. It's useful for OpenSUSE and SLED to display east Asia chars. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c58
--- Comment #58 from Frederic Crozat
(In reply to Richard Brown from comment #7)
(In reply to Petr Gajdos from comment #6)
What is the outcome from the discussion?
Do you use subpixel rendering in the Ubuntu?
Have you tried to use yast2-fonts to adjust fonts to your needs? Try for example 'CFF fonts' preset maybe with Hintstyle=hintfull. Better?
The outcome from the discussion was
Noto should be installed and the default for Serif and Sans Source Sans Pro should be installed and the default for Monospace
Could you implement? might be too late for Leap GA but we could possibly do it as a maint update
Mr Richard: I think we can also merge Adobe Source * Sans fonts together this time. Source Han Sans is a set of OpenType/CFF Pan-CJK fonts, It's very beautiful to Chinese, Japanese, Korean and other east Asia countries. They are under the SIL Open Font License Version 1.1. See https://github.com/adobe-fonts. It's useful for OpenSUSE and SLED to display east Asia chars.
We are fortunate: Adobe Source Han Sans is identical to Noto Sans CJK, since Google and Adobe worked together on it : http://googledevelopers.blogspot.com/2014/07/noto-cjk-font-that-is-complete.... Is there a big difference compared to Noto fonts ? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c59
Richard Brown
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http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898#c60
--- Comment #60 from Zhao Qiang 赵强
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Zhao Qiang 赵强
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