https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c2 Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |jsmeix@novell.com, | |mzugec@novell.com Platform|x86-64 |All Component|YaST2 |Usability AssignedTo|bnc-team-screening@forge.pr |mschmidkunz@novell.com |ovo.novell.com | QAContact|jsrain@novell.com |qa@suse.de Summary|printer Kyocera FS-1020D is |Misleading Add/Modify |detected, but not |dialog in yast2-printer |automatically installed |when it initially finds no |using yast2 |driver Severity|Normal |Major --- Comment #2 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-01-22 02:23:34 MST --- Your report in bug #467172 was misleading. I thought it is about that you report that there is no longer a driver which is invalid because actually we provide the same driver as before. Regarding this new report: It is the most often reported issue that the dialog in attachment #266614 is misunderstood by the user when YaST initially didn't find a matching driver. It seems many users misunderstand the "No matching driver found" message in YaST as an ultimate final statement that there exists no driver for this model but actually the message means exactly what it reads, i.e. that YaST did not find a driver which matches to the directly above shown model string. In attachment #467172 the upper table shows in the "Modell" column the value what the printer hardware itself reports via the USB. Only this value can be used by YaST to find a matching driver. When there is another model value used in the printer description files (PPD files), YaST cannot find a matching driver and all you can do is to manually search for a matching driver. YaST cannot fix such kind of non-matching values. It could only be fixed by those who make the driver with its associated PPDs which is here the printer manufacturer Kyocera and I already explained in https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=467172#c3 how this mess was caused by Kyocera itself. The dialog in attachment #467172 was designed together with our usability experts and implemented accordingly. For background information you may have a look at http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Printer_Enhancement and compare the final design http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_mschmidkunz_rc2_addlocalqueue.png with one of my experimental proposals http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_jsmeix_add.png and even before this one I had a [More Drivers] button in my experimental module so that it looked initially like -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Assign Driver: |ACME FunPrinter 1200| [Show matching Drivers] [More Drivers] [Add Driver] __________________________________________________________ |No matching driver found | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The [More Drivers] functionality was simply to remove the last word of the model string so that after clicking [More Drivers] it could look like -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Assign Driver: |ACME FunPrinter | [Show matching Drivers] [More Drivers] [Add Driver] __________________________________________________________ |No matching driver found | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- After one more clicking [More Drivers] it could look like -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Assign Driver: |ACME | [Show matching Drivers] [More Drivers] [Add Driver] __________________________________________________________ |ACME Fancy Printer 1000 |ACME Funny Printer 2000 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The last fallback (when nothing matches to the first word which is usually the manufacturer name) is to show the full list of all available drivers. I.e. in any case clicking [More Drivers] several times results eventually a list of drivers. I re-assign the issue to our usability expert because it is no bug in YaST (it is implemented according to the current design) but a usability issue if the current design provides good usability. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c4 --- Comment #4 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-01-22 02:41:34 MST --- For duplicate reports see bug #467172 bug #467457 bug #462070 bug #446186 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446432#c11 -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User lists@majo.name added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c6 --- Comment #6 from Martin Jost <lists@majo.name> 2009-01-24 03:29:40 MST --- I just rechecked with 10.3 - where from my recollection this worked as I would expect. Here yast doesn't try to guess, but simply displays a list of *all* drivers and let me pick. (I will attach a screen shot) So it is quite clear, that I have to pick the driver. The problem with 11.1. has IHMO two causes: - yast diplays the very specific name of the printer, but then tells it couldn't find a driver. I interpreted this as a final failure notification which stopped me from searching myself. ("It knows the exact name, but couldn't find the driver with this info") - in addition yast doesn't show a list of the drivers My suggestion is: - If yast can find a matching driver it can/should use this; maybe offer to search the full list for better alternatives. - If it can't find a driver, it shouldn't say "No driver found" but instead simply offer the whole range of drivers and let the user pick. (As 10.3 does in the first place.) - Maybe a sort of lookup table from "full name" to "driver name" could be added (used as second resource), which could be filled by entries from the HCL wiki. I would surely add to this list. Feel free to close this bug, refering to one of the others. Maybe add the bug to the most annoying ones, so it is found on searching before reporting. I considered this a specific bug for Kyocera FS1020D ("Hey, why isn't the driver there any more - it worked on 10.3 !") I didn't consider this a general problem and didn't search for the bug using keywords for a wider match. If I look at the problem, I see here a kind of behaviour, I so much hate on windows from time to time: The system tries to be smarter than the user, hides what is really going on and finally throws in the towel, when it gets stuck spitting out a misleading error message. Automatisms are fine, when they work all the time, but they are an invention from hell, if they fail and hide what is really going on and what to do about it. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c8 --- Comment #8 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-01-27 02:00:57 MST --- What I did at some time during my "experimental printer module" was: When initially no driver description string matches to the autodetected model string, it shows the "No matching driver found" stuff to make the user aware that there is no driver which matches exactly. It is a very important information to make the user aware that he may have to try out this or that driver which may oe may not work for his model. I like to disrupt the user here to make him really aware that in this case he is on his own to find a driver by trial and error and that he may have give up when no driver works (yes, there are unsupported printer models out there). I like to disrupt the user and send him the "No matching driver found" information because without this information in the user's mind it did in the past result much too often a wrong driver assigned and this caused bug reports about broken drivers or broken printer setup when it was actually only the result of a too optimistic [OK]...[OK]...[OK] clicking. But in my "experimental printer module" there was the [More Drivers] button and when cklicking it once, it removed automatically word by word from the autodetected model string until the list of matching drivers was no longer empty (up to the full list of all available drivers) so that one single click on [More Drivers] results a non-epmpty list of drivers in any case. I suggest the following re-design of this part of the dialog: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Assign Driver: [Search] |ACME FunPrinter 1200| [More Drivers] [Add Driver] __________________________________________________________ |No matching driver found | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The header is again "Assign Driver", compare https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446186#c14 because this section of the dialog is first of all about to assign a driver to an already selected connection. The verbose [Show matching Drivers] button, compare https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446432#c15 is now a simple [Search] button to make it obvious for the user that he can search here. The [Search] button is leftmost to have it immediately visible directly followed by the model input field and this is separated from the more advanced functionality which is provided by the [More Drivers] and [Add Driver] buttons which are aligned rightmost. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c10 --- Comment #10 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-01-29 04:36:08 MST --- In comment #7 attachment #267449) is no "driver slection for printer". It is a manufacturer and model selection. For well supported printers (in particular PostScript+PCL printers) there exist several drivers which work well and it is up to the user to assign the one which works best according to his individual needs see the help text in YaST in openSUSE 11.1: -------------------------------------------------------------- It is possible to have several different print queues for the same printer device. Usually several print queues are needed when several different printer drivers should be used for the same printer device. For example a second queue with a monochrome-only driver to enforce black-only printout on a color device or a PostScript queue and a queue with a PCL driver for a PostScript+PCL printer because printing via the PCL driver is usally faster (but with less quality). -------------------------------------------------------------- Actually YaST before openSUSE 11.1 (i.e. up to openSUSE 11.0) did hide the driver selection from the user and selected one of the matching drivers automatically without any user notification which actual driver it did select - except the user intentionally clicks "[PPD Datei wählen]" which lets him select the actual driver. Therefore YaST before openSUSE 11.1 "hides what is really going on". In contrast YaST in openSUSE 11.1 does no longer hide the actual driver selection from the user so that it does no longer "hide what is really going on". Have a look at http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Printer_Enhancement ---------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Design Ideas: .. The driver is visible auto-selected. There is no longer a hidden automatism which results whatever driver it thinks is best. The new design makes it much more obvious to the user if there is more than one driver available and which one is actually auto-selected. The driver is automatically visible auto-selected so that there is no single click more needed by the user. The crucial point is that there is visible feeback from the automatism to keep the user informed what is happening. ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c12 Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |matti.kukkola@gmail.com --- Comment #12 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-02-12 03:26:17 MST --- *** Bug 474869 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. *** https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=474869 -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c14 --- Comment #14 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-02-13 01:56:36 MST --- This bug is about the "Misleading Add/Modify dialog in yast2-printer when it initially finds no driver". This bug is not about Canon MP610 PIXMA drivers! The Suse/Novell Bugzila is only a bug tracking system but not a help forum where you can ask help questions. You may file a separated new bug report if you have troubles with a particular driver which we provide with openSUSE 11.1 (i.e. no third-party drivers) and when you think it is a bug in the driver. In this case provide exact information which printer model and which driver you use (e.g. provide a YaST screenshot of the Add/Modify dialog how you set it up on your particular system). -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User gilbert_awad@yahoo.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c16 Gilbert Awad <gilbert_awad@yahoo.com> changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |gilbert_awad@yahoo.com --- Comment #16 from Gilbert Awad <gilbert_awad@yahoo.com> 2009-02-18 12:17:56 MST --- Hello Johannes and Martin, I would like to confirm this bug, as it left me unable to print anything from my canon Pixma MP760 for over two weeks after installing openSUSE 11.1 (until I found a "workaround" in the forums and on this bug list). Indeed, as has been Martin's experience, it's not that the drivers aren't actually available for 11.1 on the DVD or the repos, but that YaST's response to the mismatch between printer and driver names ("No matching driver found") left me convinced that the drivers needed for my printer had been pulled from the distribution, and that I was to obtain them some other way. After all, my printer had pretty much worked "out of the box" in 11.0, with YaST not uttering so much as a peep. Also, I have to admit that I do not find the reasoning of "confronting the user" the least helpful in such a case. If I want to feel confronted by my OS I'll run Vista! A more clear message in a dialogue offering to seach for near matches would have been far more helpful. Much more than getting "dumped" with, essentially, a "Can't find it, too bad, your on your own!". You wrote that you used '"No matching driver found" stuff to make the user aware that there is no driver which matches exactly.' But it is not clear wheather the match is supposed to be *exact* or *at all* (not even a near match). It was only by reading the forums that I discovered that adding "PIXMA" before "MP760" to the name of the printer would let YaST find the appropriate drivers. And btw, I don't have any option to "search for more drivers" in YaST's printer configuration tool. Just a button to let me browse to where I think they might be. (Or did I misunderstand that part of your reply...is this only on the maybe to do list?) Anyway, thanks for all the hard work, though. SUSE remains my disto of choice thanks to the thousands who put the energy into this outstanding community project! Gilbert -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User mschmidkunz@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c18 --- Comment #18 from Martin Schmidkunz <mschmidkunz@novell.com> 2009-02-19 06:39:31 MST --- OK, feel free to add the [More drivers] button :-) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User gilbert_awad@yahoo.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c20 --- Comment #20 from Gilbert Awad <gilbert_awad@yahoo.com> 2009-02-19 08:53:57 MST --- Hey, I'll second that, especially if it will allow/perfom a search for drivers appropriate for printers with similar model numbers, then for all those from the vendor. By the way, from what I've been reading this issue is affecting a lot of people with various kinds of models and makes of printer. Most are told to configure their printers using the CUPS http utility—which seems to work just fine—but is a little ironic as the driver they need is actually sitting right there "in the next room" so to speak. It's kind of like running into a family member who's recently decided he'll absolutely refuse to respond to anyone if they call him anything but "David" (like "Dave" for example), but you don't know that...you might start to wonder what the heck is wrong with the guy ;^) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c22 --- Comment #22 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-02-24 02:57:39 MST --- Why don't you read the help text regarding the "Add Driver" dialog before you post what you consider to be a bug? ------------------------------------------------------------------- When a PPD file is not located in the /usr/share/cups/model/ directory, it is not available to set up a printer configuration with it. Therefore you can specify the full path of a PPD file which is located elsewhere on your system to get it installed in the /usr/share/cups/model/ directory. ------------------------------------------------------------------- To try to add a PPD file from /usr/share/cups/model/ to /usr/share/cups/model/ is therefore useless and starting the file browser in /usr/share/cups/model/ would be the most wrong starting point at all. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046 User jsmeix@novell.com added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468046#c24 --- Comment #24 from Johannes Meixner <jsmeix@novell.com> 2009-02-25 01:58:22 MST --- Regarding 1. "search the PPD files for the names" is what you can already do in the "Add printer" dialog by entering whatever you like as driver search string (the one which is preset by the autodetected model string) and click "Show matching drivers". This is too often not understood by the users that they can enter there whatever they like, compare https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446186#c9 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446432#c11 (see comment #4) 2. "Add driver" just means to add a driver and not to find an already available driver. For the latter, see item 1. 3. This is already described in the help text. There is no space on the dialog for descriptive texts. The available space on a dialog is very limited. See what I wrote in the "Squashed Content" section at http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Printer_Enhancement Furthermore the usability experts do not like longer texts directly on the dialog - i.e. the dialog should be self-explanatory only by its graphical design (using the right widgets at the right place and so on) without the need of verbose textual descriptions, compare https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446432#c12 4. Our usability experts decided that the word "queue" is a too technical term which confuses our users so that I must avoid this word whenever possible on the dialogs. Usually "printer" is now used instead of "queue" which replaces the right technical term by a meaningless word because "printer" does not transport valuable information to the user, he knows already that the stuff is about a "printer". I think that "not transport valuable information to the user" is the root cause why many users seem to like it because they think they understand what is going on but actually they do not understand anything, they just have the easygoing feeling of an innocent. At least for me this is a miserable failure to tell the user the right valuable information what the stuff actually is about. Therefore I am still using "queue" in the help texts (see item 3.) so that I do not leave the user totally uninformed about how the underlying system works. Compare the screenshots of my experimental module at http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Development/Printer_Enhancement 5. See bug #462735. Please do not use this bug report which is only about "Misleading Add/Modify dialog in yast2-printer when it initially finds no driver" as a general discussion forum about usability. For usability discussions we have the mailing list opensuse-ux@opensuse.org see http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Mailinglists -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.