[Bug 382755] New: Welcome -> Language selection
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755 Summary: Welcome -> Language selection Product: openSUSE 11.0 Version: Factory Platform: Other OS/Version: Other Status: NEW Severity: Normal Priority: P5 - None Component: Installation AssignedTo: bnc-team-screening@forge.provo.novell.com ReportedBy: mmeeks@novell.com QAContact: jsrain@novell.com Found By: --- I just started an install on a machine where the mouse is buried on my desk somewhere ;-) I got to the 'Welcome' screen and tried to change the Language via keybindings. Tab'd to focus, hit down arrow - and bling - it downloaded an 'Estonian' UI ;-) similarly for Finnish etc. pain. Then - I realised there must be a keybinding to pop-up the combo-box, I spent several seconds hunting for this - until I found Alt->up/down: at which point my pain was solved :-). My question is: is there any way we can improve the discoverability of this for keyboard-only installers ? and/or can we see (from the web server logs) how many hits we get on Estonian to see if it's just me ;-) One solution might be to defer doing the language download until a second of inactivity (or somesuch) when using key-navigation; or a label describing the binding under the topmost combobox might work (?). Alternatively of course, training each user is always the fallback option ;-) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755
Cyril Hrubis
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Cyril Hrubis
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User locilka@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c2
Lukas Ocilka
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User sh@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c3
--- Comment #3 from Stefan Hundhammer
That's not only about the Welcome screen, all `opt(`notify) comboboxes are affected. In my opinion, arrow down should open the menu and let user chose the same way as ncurses do.
Well, that's what `opt(`notify) does - by definition: It delivers each event as it is received from mouse or keyboard. If you don't want instant reaction to a ComboBox event, don't use `opt(`notify). For SelectionBox widgets, we also have `opt(`immediate) and (if that option is not set) a small delay between user events and event delivery to the application. If during that time there is another user event, the first one is discarded and only the last one is delivered. That was implemented for SelectionBox for exactly this language dialog to prevent exactly this bug - which is now back since another widget is being used that doesn't have this extra delay. See http://svn.opensuse.org/svn/yast/trunk/libyui/examples/SelectionBox2.cc for an example that allows you to experiment with those options. Note, however, that even with a SelectionBox this only works if the user hits the arrow key repeatedly within that delay (200 milliseconds IIRC). If he is just a little bit slower, the problem will be just the same. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User sh@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c4
Stefan Hundhammer
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User sh@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c5
--- Comment #5 from Stefan Hundhammer
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User tgoettlicher@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c6
Thomas Göttlicher
In my opinion, arrow down should open the menu and let user chose the same way as ncurses do. Changing the default behavior might confuse the user. If the whole menu list is needed in most cases why isn't a listbox used? In my opinion changing the widget isn't the appropriate solution but changing 'welcome screen' is.
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User locilka@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c7
Lukas Ocilka
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User sh@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c8
--- Comment #8 from Stefan Hundhammer
We redraw the Welcome screen (usibg the currently selected language) with every single "&Language" change because we want users to read the license in their language and we want user to select "I Agree to the License Terms" there.
I know all that. That (and the resulting slowness) was the reason why we used to have the language selection in a separate dialog. Plus, of course, not overwhelming the user with a lot of text in a language he might not understand, and in a pretty complex dialog where he might not figure out that there is a language at all, and if so, where it might be. This is IMHO much worse from a usability point of view.
In ncurses, [arrow down] opens a list of available languages and users can scroll through the list to select a new language.
The NCurses UI is not the Qt UI. They have always been and will always be different. That's the point of having multiple UIs. Strictly speaking, it's a bug that an NCComboBox doesn't deliver an event when the user makes a change, not that the YQComboBox does. That's the point of `opt(`notify) flag. The NCComboBox (and also the NCSelectionBox) are pardoned about that only because there is no other way for the user to select anything without selecting other (undesired) items in the process; that causes slowness in all kinds of other scenarios, too. Graphical UIs (Qt, Gtk) have a mouse, and that's the common way to select items in those widgets; there is no general need to temporarily select items you don't realls want to select. That's all extensively documented in the events documentation, BTW. This scenario is unique in the way that a mouseless installation can happen (though pretty rarely these days), and the show must still go on. In that scenario (and in that one alone) it is really annoying to be unable to use the preferred method (using the mouse) of selecting combo box or selection box items and having to select intermediate items with the keyboard instead. As I wrote in comment #3 .. comment #5, we _could_ add `opt(`immediate) to the combo box widget, thus changing the default behaviour of `opt(`notify) combo boxes. But I really don't know in how many other places that might create problems. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User sh@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c9
--- Comment #9 from Stefan Hundhammer
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755
Stefan Hundhammer
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User coolo@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c10
Stephan Kulow
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User novell.com-pnt@ladisch.de added comment
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Julian Ladisch
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User sh@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=382755#c12
Stefan Hundhammer
For me it did not work because I did not know that I should press space to open the language combo box.
This is pretty standard in all toolkits I know, on Linux as well as on Windows.
Therefore I had very bad responsiveness because loading time of each intermediate language was several seconds on my slow system.
So you didn't know how to do it the normal way, but still it worked, right?
I have two suggestions, any might solve the problem:
a) Show a help text similar to: "Press Space to change the language."
Yes, I can see how this helps a person who doesn't speak the language he is about to change... All a text like that would do is confuse users even more.
This might be restricted to cases where the keyboard is used.
And the way to figure out that a user cannot move the mouse cursor is exactly how?
The first system a user uses without a mouse might be OpenSUSE.
b) If the user presses arrow up or arrow down to change the language but hasn't opened the combo box before, then the installer software should automatically open the combo box before processing the arrow key.
As noted before, this shouldn't even be a comob box. We had a simple dialog with a selection box. Everybody could use that one. But it was decided that looks get priority over usability, so here we go again -- stuck with the same problems (actually, worse problems) than in early 2000. :-(( BTW what you suggest is nothing short of making a combo box a modal pop-up dialog you can't get rid of that easily. Ever thought of the consequences of that? Let's get real and not waste any more time on non-issues. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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