[Bug 439018] New: g-p-m suspends desktop
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018 User captain.magnus@opensuse.org added comment https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c304708 Summary: g-p-m suspends desktop Product: openSUSE 11.1 Version: Factory Platform: Other OS/Version: Other Status: NEW Severity: Major Priority: P5 - None Component: GNOME AssignedTo: hmacht@novell.com ReportedBy: captain.magnus@opensuse.org QAContact: qa@suse.de CC: jpr@novell.com Found By: --- This was added to gconf2-branding due to fate#304708 # Enable Energy Star compliant default configuration %gconf_set /apps/gnome-power-manager/actions/sleep_type_battery --type=string "suspend" %gconf_set /apps/gnome-power-manager/timeout/sleep_computer_battery --type=int 1200 %gconf_set /apps/gnome-power-manager/timeout/sleep_computer_ac --type=int 1200 %gconf_set /apps/gnome-power-manager/timeout/sleep_display_ac --type=int 300 Is it really a requirement to suspend the computer if it's on AC? This obviously happens regardless if it's a Desktop or Laptop. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c1
Holger Macht
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User captain.magnus@opensuse.org added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c2
--- Comment #2 from Magnus Boman
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User captain.magnus@opensuse.org added comment
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--- Comment #3 from Magnus Boman
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c4
Holger Macht
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User vuntz@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c5
--- Comment #5 from Vincent Untz
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User gp@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c6
Gerald Pfeifer
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c7
--- Comment #7 from Holger Macht
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User jpr@novell.com added comment
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--- Comment #8 from JP Rosevear
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c9
--- Comment #9 from Holger Macht
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User captain.magnus@opensuse.org added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c10
--- Comment #10 from Magnus Boman
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c11
--- Comment #11 from Holger Macht
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User captain.magnus@opensuse.org added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c12
--- Comment #12 from Magnus Boman
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Andreas Jaeger
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User coolo@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c13
--- Comment #13 from Stephan Kulow
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User coolo@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c14
Stephan Kulow
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User suse-beta@cboltz.de added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c15
Christian Boltz
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c16
Carlos Robinson
And the default can be changed easily by those that need their computer in different ways.
No, we can't. Not system wide, not easily, and users are not warned. Plus, the machine hibernates automatically even if there are open network connections or running programs or opened files on external media that do not survive. (In reply to comment #15 from Christian Boltz)
showing a notification shortly before the very first autosuspend (it will still be readable after resume if the user didn't close it before)
..by which time the user may have lost data and be very pissed. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User gabriel@opensuse.org added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c17
Sergio Gabriel
FYI: I just opened bug 439980 for the release notes entry.
If a developer has some time left: showing a notification shortly before the very first autosuspend (it will still be readable after resume if the user didn't close it before) with a hint how to disable autosuspend would be useful ;-)
I don't think many users read the release notes. Actually they will start complaining about this "feature" before someone point them to the way to disable it. (In reply to comment #14 from Stephan Kulow)
Just chatted with Timo (as replacement of Holger :) and openSUSE PM. Based on the data we have, leaving the default to save power is a good thing - I think by now even the last one understood that wasting power is bad. And the default can be changed easily by those that need their computer in different ways.
If there are other bugs that make this feature dangerous, we can still back out of it, but that's not topic in this bug.
Just put a simple checkbox in the install process and let the user decide if he wants this enabled for all by default or not. And/or find the way to let root disable/enable it for all users. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c18
--- Comment #18 from Holger Macht
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c19
--- Comment #19 from Holger Macht
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c20
--- Comment #20 from Carlos Robinson
Most issues people might have are plain bugs that need to be fixed. Actually, I think that having something by default will put more pressure on people fixing the issues, like 'external usb disk is /dev/sdc after resume and has been /dev/sda before'.
Should I remind you that I opened a bug about this change drom sda to sdc about a year ago and it was closed as "INVALID"? >:|
So I think we'll keep this setting for openSUSE and SLED, and will disable it for SLES. If comment 14 still applies. And we'll try to fix all related bugs. If they're too severe, we still can revert it for openSUSE.
I'm going to feel more of a guinea pig than ever... -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User noelamac@gmail.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c21
Camaleon --
Most issues people might have are plain bugs that need to be fixed. Actually, I think that having something by default will put more pressure on people fixing the issues, like 'external usb disk is /dev/sdc after resume and has been /dev/sda before'.
Well, I would not call these "plain bugs", sir :-). By setting this feature as default, you are (arbitrarily) exposing your users to a data loss, data corruption or even hardware failure if they are forced to "button-reset" the machine. Of course bugs have to be filled when problem arises, but keep in mind: data cannot always be recovered! And you know, don't tell users about their backup, as they even know it exists something called "backup" ;-) While I agree that suspending the machine (at some scenarios, with certain hardware and always triggered -manually or automatically- by a user / root decision) and having this feature working in opensuse are both good ideas, in no ways making this the default setup is a good idea (just my understanding).
So I think we'll keep this setting for openSUSE and SLED, and will disable it for SLES. If comment 14 still applies. And we'll try to fix all related bugs. If they're too severe, we still can revert it for openSUSE.
Can you elaborate that statement, please? :-) Are you telling us that having a default feature for suspending "SLES servers" is not a good idea but seems to be the right approach for "openSUSE servers"?
:-)
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c22
--- Comment #22 from Holger Macht
Should I remind you that I opened a bug about this change drom sda to sdc about a year ago and it was closed as "INVALID"? >:|
Do you have the bug id, please? (In reply to comment #21 from Camaleon --)
Are you telling us that having a default feature for suspending "SLES servers" is not a good idea but seems to be the right approach for "openSUSE servers"?
:-)
Actually, yes. openSUSE does not have one specific target group, it's somewhere in the middle. And in my opinion, it is/should be rather designed for desktop use. People using openSUSE for server use have to tweak it anyway. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c23
--- Comment #23 from Carlos Robinson
(In reply to comment #20 from Carlos Robinson)
Should I remind you that I opened a bug about this change drom sda to sdc about a year ago and it was closed as "INVALID"? >:|
Do you have the bug id, please?
[Bug 343874 -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User gp@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c24
Gerald Pfeifer
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c25
--- Comment #25 from Carlos Robinson
I also ran into this, and it took me a while to understand what was going on.
One thing that is really, really missing is a simple entry in /var/log/messages indicating *why* the system is suspending.
Something like
Nov 1 02:30:33 rana gp: Suspending to RAM due to EnergyStar compliance. Nov 1 02:31:00 rana gp: You can change this setting via gnome-power-manager or kpowersave.
That would have saved me quite some scratching and waste of time to track this down.
Reopening to get this addressed.
Thankyou! I said this from day one! http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-10/msg00512.html I hope that now you people (novell) start to understand our (users) problem. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c26
--- Comment #26 from Carlos Robinson
Yes, it is a requirement. And now that more and more Desktop systems become capable of doing a suspend to RAM, it might become an issue. Maybe we should at least add it to the release notes?
If you're interested, please see http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/product_specs/program_reqs/Computer_Sp...: (3) Power Management Requirements
That spec is a requirement for machines, not software alone. You can not certify openSUSE for compliance in any case, even if included on any machine; and if bundled, only SLES or SLE is certifiable. The spec says, for example: User Information Requirement: In order to ensure that purchasers/users are properly informed on the benefits of power management, the manufacturer will include with each computer, one of the following: • Information on ENERGY STAR and the benefits of power management in either a hard copy or electronic copy of the user manual. This information should be near the front of the user guide; or • A package or box insert on ENERGY STAR and the benefits of power management. Either option must at least include the following information: • Notice that the computer has been shipped enabled for power management and what the time settings are; and • How to properly wake the computer from Sleep mode; All that information is missing. It also says: +++ Power Management Requirements Shipment Requirement: Products must be shipped with the display’s Sleep mode set to activate within 15 minutes of user inactivity. All products, except for desktop-derived servers which are exempt from this requirement, must be shipped with a Sleep mode which is set to activate within 30 minutes of user inactivity. Products may have more than one low power mode but these proposed criteria address Sleep mode as defined in this specification. Computers shall reduce the speed of any active 1 Gb/s Ethernet network links when transitioning to Sleep or Standby. ++- So, mine is a "desktop-derived servers" and therefore is exempt. I hope you propose to ad to yast a configuration during install so that users enter the classification of their machine so that the defaults configurations are modified to comply with above, ie, exempt servers. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User ke@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c27
Karl Eichwalder
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c28
--- Comment #28 from Holger Macht
That spec is a requirement for machines, not software alone. You can not certify openSUSE for compliance in any case, even if included on any machine; and if bundled, only SLES or SLE is certifiable.
I never ever said that any of our distributions is Energy Star compliant. I also already stated somewhere else (where you are also the reporter of the bug) that we cannot do this because of the hardware dependencies. Please listen. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c29
Holger Macht
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User noelamac@gmail.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c30
--- Comment #30 from Camaleon --
Actually, yes. openSUSE does not have one specific target group, it's somewhere in the middle.
I have to disagree, sir, because it does. We (admins) choose the target we (admins) want for our systems and install opensuse accordingly.
And in my opinion, it is/should be rather designed for desktop use.
I guess we are not in the same boat or maybe we are talking on different operating systems... Are you telling we should avoid installing opensuse in our servers but it's o.k. in our desktops? :-/
People using openSUSE for server use have to tweak it anyway.
Same tweak that SLES admins have to perform on their systems. No more, no less. You are making the difference, so please, specify "why". -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User noelamac@gmail.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c31
--- Comment #31 from Camaleon --
Yes, it is a requirement.
A requirement by "who", "why" or "what"? "Who" or "what" requires a machine to suspend on AC power?
And now that more and more Desktop systems become capable of doing a suspend to RAM, it might become an issue. Maybe we should at least add it to the release notes?
If you're interested, please see http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/product_specs/program_reqs/Computer_Sp...: (3) Power Management Requirements
This information about Energy Star only applies to Energy Star compliant systems (hardware and software). If opensuse cannot be complaint to that standard (as per your comment #28), I cannot see your point to embrace or force a "by default setup" to achieve this. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c32
--- Comment #32 from Holger Macht
(In reply to comment #22 from Holger Macht) I guess we are not in the same boat or maybe we are talking on different operating systems... Are you telling we should avoid installing opensuse in our servers but it's o.k. in our desktops? :-/
No, definitely not. I think it should be most suited for desktop, in it's default configuration. And I also wrote that that's _my personal opinion_. (In reply to comment #31 from Camaleon --)
A requirement by "who", "why" or "what"? "Who" or "what" requires a machine to suspend on AC power?
The Energy Star specification.
This information about Energy Star only applies to Energy Star compliant systems (hardware and software). If opensuse cannot be complaint to that standard (as per your comment #28), I cannot see your point to embrace or force a "by default setup" to achieve this.
But we could try to come as close as possible, so that systems which fulfill the hardware requirements could, theoretically, just be labeled accordingly. But please stop this discussion here, it doesn't lead anywhere. And don't get me wrong, I really much appreciate this input/discussion, because that's what we need in openSUSE. It's just not our decision in this specific case. Thanks. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User gp@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c33
--- Comment #33 from Gerald Pfeifer
Rodrigo, it's about letting the user know that the system autosuspended. The proposal was to add it to /var/log/messages. I this that instead of showing such a warning, couldn't we show a libnotify bubble saying something like:
Sounds like a nice idea to add. Please let's do the logging in any case, though! -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c34
--- Comment #34 from Carlos Robinson
But please stop this discussion here, it doesn't lead anywhere. And don't get me wrong, I really much appreciate this input/discussion, because that's what we need in openSUSE. It's just not our decision in this specific case. Thanks.
It doesn't lead anywhere because you have already decided and you are not going to listen. I take it that Novell does not care about what users think and want. Nice. :-/ -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User dkukawka@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c35
--- Comment #35 from Danny Kukawka
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User gabriel@opensuse.org added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c36
--- Comment #36 from Sergio Gabriel
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User vuntz@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c37
--- Comment #37 from Vincent Untz
The most annoying thing is that root is not able to disable this behavior for ALL users in a simple and quick way.
Actually, it's even easier than what I thought: go in the power management preferences (gnome-power-preferences, iirc), change the first slider in the first tab, and click "make defaults". It only works with the packages in GNOME:Factory right now since a few fixes were required to make it work. But as soon as the submissions get accepted, it will hit Factory. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c38
--- Comment #38 from Carlos Robinson
(In reply to comment #26 from Carlos Robinson)
That spec is a requirement for machines, not software alone. You can not certify openSUSE for compliance in any case, even if included on any machine; and if bundled, only SLES or SLE is certifiable.
I never ever said that any of our distributions is Energy Star compliant. I also already stated somewhere else (where you are also the reporter of the bug) that we cannot do this because of the hardware dependencies. Please listen.
Of course I listen, but I'm afraid you don't. I'm all in favour of energy savings. I have been using Energy Star features since before SuSE existed. I was thrilled when SuSE suddenly was able to hibernate my machine, and I have used it since then several times a day, even before the desktop was able to trigger it. I always recommend people to try hibernation: it is faster than booting, saves effort in starting all apps on the desktop, and saves energy. But I'm also against forcing the user, specially when it is dangerous for him. The original reporter said:
# Enable Energy Star compliant default configuration
and you said:
Yes, it is a requirement.
Thus, the excuse for this default configuration is to be compliant with Energy Star - but software alone can not be compliant. To be compliant you have to pass a certification and complete tests, for the combination of hardware and software. This is not possible for openSUSE, so the above is just an excuse. My points are: a) You must remember that such a default is dangerous before the machine is tested. Some machines crash when suspending or hibernating; some will "simply" loose data. This will cause users to be very pissed against Novell. b) It is a mistake, can cause damage and lost data, to configure a user's desktop, without the owner prior knowledge and permission, to suspend or hibernate. Before the user of a machine, or the vendor/supplier of the software (Novell), is allowed to configure autosuspend/autohibernate, the owner of the machine has to explicitly allow this configuration change. c) Before permitting a desktop to allow suspend/hibernate, during installation and later in YaST, the admin must be asked whether to permit it, or not permit it, or even force it. He is the person that knows whether the machine withstands the cycle, and what's the intended usage of the machine. For example, a server, even a home server, must never suspend or hibernate automatically. d) If the real intend is to conserve energy, then KDE must have this behaviour too, and the CLI, and the entire machine, even more when nobody is logged in. Not only when somebody is logged in GNome. Or is it your intend that openSUSE users act as guinea pigs for SLED, which uses gnome as default, and thus "forgive" kde users? e) You have to test first how services like apache, samba, etc, behave. The configuration change makes my machine hibernate, meaning that all network connections are killed. f) You also have to test how all possible configurations with external devices (usb, firewire, etc) survive: printers (what about cups printing a long job!), scanners (I bet you will find that xsane has to be restarted), disk devices (regardless of how they are mounted, not only mounted via gnome (they can be mounted by another user)), etc. g) Consider that the complains you are seeing are just a sample of what you will see once normal users find out. Till now only betatesters are aware, and we are more forgiving and prepared than most users. Or perhaps you do know, and thus you test first on gnome. Kde users are a rougher crowd, already pissed because of the KDE 4 "situation" >:-P My propossal is: a) That you (Novell) remove this default setting this time. Ie, delay it. b) Create a YaST module to configure the behaviour of the entire system: 1) prohibit/allow suspend/hibernation system wide 2) define default behaviour system wide. 3) prohibit/allow users to change the default behaviour. c) Obviously, events must be logged. I'm afraid you (Novell) will discard my proposal without consideration, and that my valuable time was wasted. Therefore, then at least: a) warn root during installation. b) provide at least a script to disable the default configuration of autosuspend/hibernate. c) warn the users on the welcome window, that is, way before the actual act. d) pop a window in advance, and log the event. Thank you! -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User coolo@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c39
--- Comment #39 from Stephan Kulow
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User pavel@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c40
Pavel Machek
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c41
--- Comment #41 from Carlos Robinson
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User oneukum@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c42
Oliver Neukum
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c43
--- Comment #43 from Holger Macht
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c44
--- Comment #44 from Carlos Robinson
This problematic in a few cases. AFAIK we still eject PC-Cards when we suspend. This will kill any tasks with open fds for them and may lead to data loss if a block device is connected this way.
It seems to me that it should be disabled if the system has any PC-Card or PCMCIA-card plugged in.
Or external media on USB. I have demonstrated that it breaks and data can be lost (Bug 439663). -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User oneukum@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c45
--- Comment #45 from Oliver Neukum
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User oneukum@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c46
--- Comment #46 from Oliver Neukum
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User crrodriguez@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c47
Cristian Rodríguez
The autosuspend needs to be disabled by default,
Yes, at least on it's current incarnation. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User martin.konopka@stuba.sk added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c48
Martin Konopka
(In reply to comment #28 from Holger Macht)
(In reply to comment #26 from Carlos Robinson)
That spec is a requirement for machines, not software alone. You can not certify openSUSE for compliance in any case, even if included on any machine; and if bundled, only SLES or SLE is certifiable.
I never ever said that any of our distributions is Energy Star compliant. I also already stated somewhere else (where you are also the reporter of the bug) that we cannot do this because of the hardware dependencies. Please listen.
Of course I listen, but I'm afraid you don't.
I'm all in favour of energy savings. I have been using Energy Star features since before SuSE existed. I was thrilled when SuSE suddenly was able to hibernate my machine, and I have used it since then several times a day, even before the desktop was able to trigger it. I always recommend people to try hibernation: it is faster than booting, saves effort in starting all apps on the desktop, and saves energy.
But I'm also against forcing the user, specially when it is dangerous for him.
The original reporter said:
# Enable Energy Star compliant default configuration
and you said:
Yes, it is a requirement.
Thus, the excuse for this default configuration is to be compliant with Energy Star - but software alone can not be compliant. To be compliant you have to pass a certification and complete tests, for the combination of hardware and software. This is not possible for openSUSE, so the above is just an excuse.
My points are:
a) You must remember that such a default is dangerous before the machine is tested. Some machines crash when suspending or hibernating; some will "simply" loose data. This will cause users to be very pissed against Novell.
b) It is a mistake, can cause damage and lost data, to configure a user's desktop, without the owner prior knowledge and permission, to suspend or hibernate. Before the user of a machine, or the vendor/supplier of the software (Novell), is allowed to configure autosuspend/autohibernate, the owner of the machine has to explicitly allow this configuration change.
c) Before permitting a desktop to allow suspend/hibernate, during installation and later in YaST, the admin must be asked whether to permit it, or not permit it, or even force it. He is the person that knows whether the machine withstands the cycle, and what's the intended usage of the machine. For example, a server, even a home server, must never suspend or hibernate automatically.
d) If the real intend is to conserve energy, then KDE must have this behaviour too, and the CLI, and the entire machine, even more when nobody is logged in. Not only when somebody is logged in GNome. Or is it your intend that openSUSE users act as guinea pigs for SLED, which uses gnome as default, and thus "forgive" kde users?
I can confirm: yes, also KDE 3.5.10 in openSUSE 11.1 Beta 3 shows this odd behaviour. (I am using a notebook Fujitsu-Siemens, 32-bit architecture.) After resuming from the suspend (or hibernate???) the mouse pointer does not move.
e) You have to test first how services like apache, samba, etc, behave. The configuration change makes my machine hibernate, meaning that all network connections are killed.
f) You also have to test how all possible configurations with external devices (usb, firewire, etc) survive: printers (what about cups printing a long job!), scanners (I bet you will find that xsane has to be restarted), disk devices (regardless of how they are mounted, not only mounted via gnome (they can be mounted by another user)), etc.
g) Consider that the complains you are seeing are just a sample of what you will see once normal users find out. Till now only betatesters are aware, and we are more forgiving and prepared than most users.
Or perhaps you do know, and thus you test first on gnome. Kde users are a rougher crowd, already pissed because of the KDE 4 "situation" >:-P
My propossal is:
a) That you (Novell) remove this default setting this time. Ie, delay it. b) Create a YaST module to configure the behaviour of the entire system: 1) prohibit/allow suspend/hibernation system wide 2) define default behaviour system wide. 3) prohibit/allow users to change the default behaviour. c) Obviously, events must be logged.
I'm afraid you (Novell) will discard my proposal without consideration, and that my valuable time was wasted. Therefore, then at least:
a) warn root during installation. b) provide at least a script to disable the default configuration of autosuspend/hibernate. c) warn the users on the welcome window, that is, way before the actual act. d) pop a window in advance, and log the event.
Thank you!
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User dkukawka@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c49
--- Comment #49 from Danny Kukawka
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User pavel@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c50
--- Comment #50 from Pavel Machek
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
Karl Eichwalder
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
Karl Eichwalder
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c51
Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c52
Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User bugproxy@us.ibm.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c53
LTC BugProxy
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User bugproxy@us.ibm.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c54
--- Comment #54 from LTC BugProxy
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User bugproxy@us.ibm.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c55
--- Comment #55 from LTC BugProxy
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c56
--- Comment #56 from Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c57
--- Comment #57 from LTC BugProxy
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c58
--- Comment #58 from Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c59
--- Comment #59 from LTC BugProxy
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c60
--- Comment #60 from Carlos Robinson
When you manually set "go to sleep" to occur, the machine powers off in hibernate instead of going to sleep - this is the same issue.
No, that's Bug #440410, but it doesn't have any activity. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User bugproxy@us.ibm.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c61
--- Comment #61 from LTC BugProxy
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c62
--- Comment #62 from Carlos Robinson
------- Comment From jsavoy@us.ibm.com 2008-11-18 09:00 EDT------- Then these two bugs may be duplicates, however when I search for bug 440410 I get an error saying that bug does not exist, not sure if I'm doing something wrong?
I'm getting the impression that somehow you are not looking at bugzilla properly. You should see an hiperlink on the word "bug 440410"; clicking on it should take you directly to the report. If you can't see it, click here instead: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=440410
If you take the time to read this bug's original bug entry, the symptoms we saw were caused by the system going into hibernate instead of suspend, that is theroot cause of the issue and we have known that since before we reported the bug, again see the initial bug entry for details.
The fact that Novell has disabled this function by default by setting the power management to "Never" suspend does not fix the root cause of this issue.
We are ok with marking this bug as duplicate if there is another bug against the root cause.
Because of what you say I have the feeling you are not seen bugzilla properly. The original report is not yours, but from Magnus. Click here to see it: Comment #0 And if that is not an hyperlink on your viewer, then clik here (or paste into a browser): https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018&GoAheadAndLogIn=1#c0 Your first report goes as Comment #53 in this Bugzilla, and I must thank you for it :-) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User bugproxy@us.ibm.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c63
--- Comment #63 from LTC BugProxy
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c64
--- Comment #64 from Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c65
--- Comment #65 from LTC BugProxy
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c66
--- Comment #66 from Holger Macht
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c67
--- Comment #67 from LTC BugProxy
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c68
--- Comment #68 from Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c69
--- Comment #69 from LTC BugProxy
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User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c70
--- Comment #70 from Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c71
--- Comment #71 from LTC BugProxy
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User hmacht@novell.com added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c72
--- Comment #72 from Holger Macht
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018
User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c73
--- Comment #73 from Carlos Robinson
------- Comment From jsavoy@us.ibm.com 2008-12-02 10:37 EDT------- Going into suspend is not a bug, it is a setting.
The root cause of this bug as I have reported the entire time is that the machine (and all machines we have tested) fail to suspend but instead go into hibernate. You can see this through out any update I have made to this bug which I opened.
It was probably not mirrrored correctly, and the title could have been changed to better reflect the problem once we understood the root cause - but that does not change the problem determination and root cause which we have known for quite some time.
Please have a look here for an explanation: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c62 IMO, you are reporting the problem in the wrong place. Novell/suse people (and plain opensuse reporters/users/testers, like me) see and use bugzilla numbers, and the issue you comment is a different issue, reported on another number (see link above). You do have a problem with the mirroring of issues at both places. Also, please remember that this bug is public and many people are reading it ;-) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c74
--- Comment #74 from LTC BugProxy
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c75
--- Comment #75 from LTC BugProxy
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User robin.listas@telefonica.net added comment
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c76
--- Comment #76 from Carlos Robinson
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c77
--- Comment #77 from LTC BugProxy
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c78
--- Comment #78 from LTC BugProxy
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https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=439018#c79
--- Comment #79 from LTC BugProxy
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