[Bug 276018] New: Include the OSS and Non-OSS metadata on the CDs/DVDs
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 Summary: Include the OSS and Non-OSS metadata on the CDs/DVDs Product: openSUSE 10.3 Version: Alpha 4 Platform: Other OS/Version: Other Status: NEW Severity: Enhancement Priority: P5 - None Component: Installation AssignedTo: aj@novell.com ReportedBy: francisg@gmail.com QAContact: jsrain@novell.com So we had a long discussion yesterday with quite a few people in IRC about the structures of repositories and the new enchancements coming in with the new ZYpp (which of course sounds awesome so far). One of the questions raised was the complaint about the size of metadata that needed to be downloaded when adding a repository; it appears to come up quite often, and even in pretty balanced reviews of the distribution. Since the OSS and Non-OSS repositories are static (in that they don't really change), why don't we include the metadata for these repositories on the CDs/DVDs so that users in general are pretty much set-to-go as soon as they fire up the package manager? Of course every byte on a CD counts, but I think it's a really important thing to get done, and it won't take up nearly as much space if bug 275801 is sorted out, which would mean that zypp won't download the filelists and changelogs automatically (which are quite large: 12M and 37M, and don't have a great advantage for the user). Duncan mentioned that this should be easy to implement as they rewrite the parsers. That means that we would only really need to include the primary.xml, which is only 6M when commpressed, and that seems a lot better to me. It would also lessen the load at release time on the mirrors (if only slightly), and it would be kinder to lower-end connections by not making them download the extra metadata. Any thoughts? Assigning to Aj as per Martin Lasarch's recommendation. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 aj@novell.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |aj@novell.com, ro@novell.com, lrupp@novell.com Status|NEW |ASSIGNED ------- Comment #1 from aj@novell.com 2007-05-22 00:36 MST ------- The problem I see here is that we master CDs first - and ftp repositories later. So, we do not have the final ftp repository and therefore its metadata available when we master CDs. Rudi, Lars: What do you think? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 ------- Comment #2 from francisg@gmail.com 2007-05-22 08:01 MST ------- Wouldn't it be worth freezing a little earlier for this alone? Seems like a significant advantage. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 ------- Comment #3 from lrupp@novell.com 2007-06-05 15:52 MST ------- Adding around 30MB to the CDs/DVDs results in removing same size of packages from them. People who use the CD/DVDs and don't have an internet connection loose packages, they will never get back without any benefit. People who install via internet must already have a good internet connection. For people using the online-repo just to get "missing" applications we should find a better solution (what about a better implementation which didn't need so much bandwith? ;-) But perhaps this can be a alternative solution: Looking at debian for example: they come up with three DVDs for each architecture containing mostly all of their official online repositories. So I would prefer to create one or two additional medias (DVD only) containing the stuff from the FTP trees which is currently not on the media. Currently we have in the oss-repo for 10.2: 4.0G i586 12M i686 2.1G noarch 4.0G ppc 19M ppc64 56M repodata 47M setup 3.6G x86_64 14G total => ~7GB for each architecture. => 2 DVDs non-oss repo for 10.2: 350M i586 72M noarch 122M ppc 460K repodata 884K setup 168M x86_64 713M total => ~1GB for each architecture. => Leave it as is (1CD) or add it to the DVDs above. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 ------- Comment #4 from francisg@gmail.com 2007-06-06 04:16 MST ------- If the rpm-md metadata was used, filelists.xml.gz is 12meg, and the primary.xml.gz is around 6megs, so I think it's closer to an overall of 18meg (roughly) than 30. Though I acknowledge using the rpm-md instead of yast probably isn't a possibility. The yast repository is significantly larger. Just to clarify however, the reasons for the initial enhancement request: Less steps between having finished the install, and having an appropriately tweaked install. If the user added the online repository during the installation, they likely had to wait for quite some time (since the mirrors are hammered at release time) through a process that can't be canceled. If not, then they have to hunt down the repo URL from somewhere online. Even so, I mean, the whole "you want to get one extra package? Ok, download 40meg of data first" just never goes down well with any users. I dislike the debian method you suggested as I think it's only beneficial in very rare cases. If a user has a slow connection, they either downloaded the DVD over a day or two, or they have a good friend. If they downloaded it themselves, they don't want to wait another two days to only get the 5 packages from it that they'll ever need. If they got it off a friend, they're not going to want them to get two DVDs for them instead of one. Also I think the last thing we need is more media. I mean, there's already so many CDs, then the DVD, and the retail DVD. That's more work for you guys, too ;). For sure there are users that like the GNOME/KDE option when installing, but I really think the user who wants to install-environment-X-with-one-CD is more common, so I'm happy that things might be going that way :) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 ------- Comment #5 from lrupp@novell.com 2007-06-06 09:56 MST ------- (In reply to comment #4)
Less steps between having finished the install, and having an appropriately tweaked install. If the user added the online repository during the installation, they likely had to wait for quite some time (since the mirrors are hammered at release time) through a process that can't be canceled.
A small step here is our fixed redirector. So users will be redirected better to a mirror near by themselves. And talking about a few minutes waiting during installation: how long does a user wait from beginning of the installation until the repos are added? So I would say: just time for another cup of coffee...
I dislike the debian method you suggested as I think it's only beneficial in very rare cases. If a user has a slow connection, they either downloaded the DVD over a day or two, or they have a good friend. If they downloaded it themselves, they don't want to wait another two days to only get the 5 packages from it that they'll ever need.
Sorry: I disagree. If they _know_ the 5 packages, why not downloading them from the FTP-Tree without the overhead? My main problem: Tell me the packages we should remove from the media (and break updates from older versions with that removal) without anyone crying out loud... My experience told me that it's most of the time easier to have just 2 DVDs with me containing _all_ official packages when I visit my friends instead of telling them "now we need an internet connection to get the packages I like to show you". In that case I don't care about any internet connection at all. If you like do download each package you like to test - you still have an internet connection. But if you _don't_ have any internet available, you will be glad about a second media containing all the packages even available on the FTP-Tree.
If they got it off a friend, they're not going to want them to get two DVDs for them instead of one.
Well: you don't need the second DVD for installation...
Also I think the last thing we need is more media. I mean, there's already so many CDs, then the DVD, and the retail DVD.
Thats a good point! But I'm more thinking about: 1 CD for a default KDE or Gnome installation (2CDs at all) 2 DVDs for each architecture containing all packages. The first DVD is like the current one, the second is an Add-on media. With this, we can drop the 6 normal CDs, the Lang-Addon and the NonOSS-Addon. Yes: the DVD wil contain also NonOSS stuff (as they do now). But there is no need to install it. Yes: the CDs will contain only one language and perhaps we should think about a CD for every supported language. (But this means: replace 6 packages and master again...) ...or just communicate that the users just have to add the DVDs or FTP-Trees, choose their language and let YaST do the magic.
That's more work for you guys, too
Replacing 8 medias with 3 sounds not like "more work" for me. ;-) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 ------- Comment #6 from francisg@gmail.com 2007-06-07 13:29 MST -------
And talking about a few minutes waiting during installation: how long does a user wait from beginning of the installation until the repos are added? So I would say: just time for another cup of coffee...
On slower connections it takes up to 40 minutes. Quite a transition, though, for people coming from distros where this never happens. I pretty much agree with you now though that it's not a viable option considering how large _yast2_ metadata is for the oss repository.
If they _know_ the 5 packages, why not downloading them from the FTP-Tree without the overhead?
Same reasons you wouldn't normally anyway: hassle of thinking about dependencies, and of course new users have no clue where the FTP tree is.
1 CD for a default KDE or Gnome installation (2CDs at all) 2 DVDs for each architecture containing all packages. The first DVD is like the current one, the second is an Add-on media.
Ah, I like that suggestion much better, too :). I thought your suggestion was too keep all the other CDs, as well as introduce this extra stuff; but this sounds nicer. One point might be still having a non-oss addon cd, by the way. The only problem also with this method is, like you said, having different CDs for each language. That's quite a killer. The only other option is to make them connect online to get the respective language packs after install.
Replacing 8 medias with 3 sounds not like "more work" for me. ;-)
Indeed. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 ------- Comment #7 from francisg@gmail.com 2007-06-07 13:45 MST ------- Just a note, though, that I was on ubuntu for a long time and I don't think I ever heard a user complain about having to download their language packs after installation (honestly). Indeed, all the language packs for a given language is probably less than our metadata for the oss repository :) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018 nderkach@gmail.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |nderkach@gmail.com ------- Comment #8 from nderkach@gmail.com 2007-06-07 23:39 MST ------- (In reply to comment #5)
Thats a good point! But I'm more thinking about:
1 CD for a default KDE or Gnome installation (2CDs at all) 2 DVDs for each architecture containing all packages. The first DVD is like the current one, the second is an Add-on media.
I completely second your proposal. We shouldn't limit the media size complaining about the lack of space for essential things like metadata and such. Please master the second DVD and replace the outdated 6cd-set with it. BTW: Since your want to make the second DVD (don't you?) whya have you closed bug #263606 ? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c9
Lars Rupp
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018
Michael Loeffler
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c10
--- Comment #10 from Francis Giannaros
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c11
Andreas Jaeger
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c12
Andreas Jaeger
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c13
--- Comment #13 from Klaus Kämpf
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c14
--- Comment #14 from Martin Schlander
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c15
--- Comment #15 from Klaus Kämpf
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276018#c16
Andreas Jaeger
participants (1)
-
bugzilla_noreply＠novell.com