I have to say that I don't understand the opposition to using free collaborative tools that have the potential to make document sharing easy for everyone.

There's more to the problem here than a displeasure, or having an account. It defies transparency to have such documents existing OUTSIDE of the community infrastructure, and it diminishes the ability for a team to grow with new contributors.

I for one am an avid supporter of Linux and Open Source technology which includes the Android OS and products produced by Google who in turn is a major supporter of Linux. They themselves use a modified version of Ubuntu called Goobuntu throughout their company as their primary OS. I believe that many new users and contributors will bring with them a collection of tools and experience that they will wish to share with the community which may be foreign to our current way of doing things, but this does not make them bad or non-transparent. Just like anything else, if it is useful and can be shared transparently with everyone else to contribute then it is good and helpful. As Rajko said, Google Docs works well for collaboration and is very easy to use with a very low learning curve required compared to wiki editing. It makes for a simple way for people to contribute to a rough draft prior to creating a "work in progress" wiki page. The only curve required is for those who enjoy using it to learn how to present the documents for sharing with the correct collaborative sharing controls set so that anyone wishing to contribute can do so just by following the link. No Google account is required and there is no "back room" meetings or "elitist" collaboration happening, just presenting some new tools that work well.

How can you possibly recruit new people who drive-by if everything is outside of the infrastructure? There's a million potential contributors out there, not just this particular group of people. If someone says, "Hmm, I like openSUSE, I want to contribute some of my expertise (or at least develop some skills to contribute.) Let's go searching on the wiki and see where to start" how on earth are they going to know about a Google doc?

Just like anything else, a link to the original doc can be placed within the wiki page which we all know can be edited anyway. I understand the point you are making and it is completely valid. Rajko is just using Docs as a rough draft prior to starting a new wiki. In the end, the wiki will get created anyway and of course will be editable to anyone who feels it needs clarification. For all we know, many people contributing to the wiki are using Google Docs as a starting point for lots of the work being done anyway, they just haven't made it transparent to everyone else as Rajko did. A similar circumstance is how I provided links to the core SVG files in some of the items I presented on Flickr. They actually link to my Dropbox, not a GitHub page but does it really matter as long as anyone can access the SVG files if they need or want to? My feeling is that we focus on sharing information the best we know how and use whatever tools we have available to do so with without concerning ourselves with what those tools are or where they come from.

I dare say that the accusations against folks like Richard and Marcus as being elitist seems hypocritical in this case. Only those who are in the know about the existence of such documents are the elitists, whereas the others have done things out in the open.

It defies logic to expect team growth when all activity is happening outside of the infrastructure.

You are absolutely right! There are no elitists, we are ALL on the same team working towards the same goal "Make openSUSE the best Linux operating system available". We want contributors to have fun, want to be productive, learn and contribute. By arguing openly among ourselves does not paint a "happy community" picture. However, while it's bound to happen among people anywhere who spend a lot of time together to argue, bicker and complain at one point or another on various ways we go about doing things, the core values and family cohesion remains that keeps us together. Stuff just happens outside the infrastructure, but I think it's safe to say that "all" is not necessarily the majority. Rajko and I have worked on a few projects together where I showed him some stuff and he took the time to show me some stuff. He's a good coach and means well as do we all. By making the existence of the document he started within this mailing list means that he invited everyone to collaborate on something he started which just happened to be on the Google Docs platform prior to creating a wiki page. True, only those who subscribe to this page would be aware of it and maybe to start the wiki page with just the Google Docs link and a small excerpt saying "rough draft in progress" would be more transparent. In short, it just stinks when the "family" is arguing among themselves simply because someone offered up something different that not everyone may completely agree with, but in reality doesn't really cause any harm to the family unit. On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

On Sun, 2013-01-06 at 02:37 +0000, Richard Brown wrote:

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Rajko 01/05/13 11:07 PM >>> This is attempt to sort out instructions. Feel free to edit (I hope it is shared for edit), or just add comments if not sure. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K9PNnCvmGU1lC-FG1UQ_2BSHPVip-Y3Ap2-k2OuQ...

Firstly - Why is this document not on the Wiki? Several contributors to this team have already stated their displeasure in using closed platforms as collaboration tools.

I should not need a Google account to contribute to this list

There's more to the problem here than a displeasure, or having an account. It defies transparency to have such documents existing OUTSIDE of the community infrastructure, and it diminishes the ability for a team to grow with new contributors.

How can you possibly recruit new people who drive-by if everything is outside of the infrastructure? There's a million potential contributors out there, not just this particular group of people. If someone says, "Hmm, I like openSUSE, I want to contribute some of my expertise (or at least develop some skills to contribute.) Let's go searching on the wiki and see where to start" how on earth are they going to know about a Google doc?

I dare say that the accusations against folks like Richard and Marcus as being elitist seems hypocritical in this case. Only those who are in the know about the existence of such documents are the elitists, whereas the others have done things out in the open.

It defies logic to expect team growth when all activity is happening outside of the infrastructure.

Bryen

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On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 08:49:54 +0100 Marcus Moeller wrote:

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Requiring SVG is a miss. I'm not sure how that happened that SVG is a requirement.

SVGs are necessary for distro design. Pixel-art can be used for supplementary artwork.

What is dictating vector graphics? 1) It has limits what can be done with it. 2) It is time consuming creation of graphics. 3) When you want to change image ratio, you still lose parts. So, what makes all above acceptable, and raster images not. ...

From what I read through the lines is that you contributed some nice photos (which many of us like) and want them to see in the distro, right?

You are reading too much between lines. Nice photos there belong to many people. There is only 1 mine that I would put as a wallpaper, but, not as good as other. In other words it is not about me. I see quite a bit of sophisticated graphics in other distros, and I have wish to see the same in openSUSE. openSUSE-artwork at Flickr is nothing more then collection that is easy to review, plus collection that is easy to access by many authors that use Flickr.

If so, prepare a supplementary wallpaper package and with your photos.

If you managed that, we could discuss afterwards, if we want to make some kind of public contest for additional background images.

Hmm, contest is coming first. No discussion about that. Second, if graphics will not enter default openSUSE installation then there is no need to package it. Flickr is more then enough. Everyone knows how to make downloaded image a wallpaper, and that is alternative to politics of art.

SUSEgreeter is really simple. I could provide a background image for that if you can't work it out. But it's not top priority on my list.

It is simple if all work is to create replacement for 12.2 green graphics. Just pick the grow wallpaper and slap it to background.svg, but that way is halfway, but at the moment it seems the only option. Not to mention, that when it is done, I have no idea how to submit it back to github, as there is no explanation how to use branding repo.

Greets Marcus

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