Re: [opensuse-artwork] RFC: Flickr instructions
Rajko 01/05/13 11:07 PM >>> This is attempt to sort out instructions. Feel free to edit (I hope it is shared for edit), or just add comments if not sure. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K9PNnCvmGU1lC-FG1UQ_2BSHPVip-Y3Ap2-k2OuQ...
Firstly - Why is this document not on the Wiki? Several contributors to this team have already stated their displeasure in using closed platforms as collaboration tools. I should not need a Google account to contribute to this list Secondly - As I've made very clear in several posts now, the openSUSE distribution currently requires its artworks to be generated as SVG files. Given Flickr has zero, none, nada, zip, support for Vector formats, the discussion of what we should have as a criteria for any Flickr submission portal is null and void Until someone steps up and does the work to change that situation (which I've taken the time to describe in an earlier post), then I really think we should put this cyclic conversation to one side and focus on what we need right now - like tackling some of the action items on that list I produced for the team - Rich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2013-01-06 at 02:37 +0000, Richard Brown wrote:
Rajko 01/05/13 11:07 PM >>> This is attempt to sort out instructions. Feel free to edit (I hope it is shared for edit), or just add comments if not sure. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K9PNnCvmGU1lC-FG1UQ_2BSHPVip-Y3Ap2-k2OuQ...
Firstly - Why is this document not on the Wiki? Several contributors to this team have already stated their displeasure in using closed platforms as collaboration tools.
I should not need a Google account to contribute to this list
There's more to the problem here than a displeasure, or having an account. It defies transparency to have such documents existing OUTSIDE of the community infrastructure, and it diminishes the ability for a team to grow with new contributors. How can you possibly recruit new people who drive-by if everything is outside of the infrastructure? There's a million potential contributors out there, not just this particular group of people. If someone says, "Hmm, I like openSUSE, I want to contribute some of my expertise (or at least develop some skills to contribute.) Let's go searching on the wiki and see where to start" how on earth are they going to know about a Google doc? I dare say that the accusations against folks like Richard and Marcus as being elitist seems hypocritical in this case. Only those who are in the know about the existence of such documents are the elitists, whereas the others have done things out in the open. It defies logic to expect team growth when all activity is happening outside of the infrastructure. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 05 Jan 2013 21:08:20 -0600 Bryen M Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
There's more to the problem here than a displeasure, or having an account. It defies transparency to have such documents existing OUTSIDE of the community infrastructure, and it diminishes the ability for a team to grow with new contributors.
That doc is there temporarily to fix rules/instructions published on Flikckr page http://www.flickr.com/groups/opensuse-artwork/ title "About openSUSE-artwork". In other words all discussion is about temporary copy that will vanish as soon no one can find objections to the text. Wiki copy that I created on request, may or may not stay. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
I have to say that I don't understand the opposition to using free collaborative tools that have the potential to make document sharing easy for everyone.
There's more to the problem here than a displeasure, or having an account. It defies transparency to have such documents existing OUTSIDE of the community infrastructure, and it diminishes the ability for a team to grow with new contributors.
I for one am an avid supporter of Linux and Open Source technology which includes the Android OS and products produced by Google who in turn is a major supporter of Linux. They themselves use a modified version of Ubuntu called Goobuntu throughout their company as their primary OS. I believe that many new users and contributors will bring with them a collection of tools and experience that they will wish to share with the community which may be foreign to our current way of doing things, but this does not make them bad or non-transparent. Just like anything else, if it is useful and can be shared transparently with everyone else to contribute then it is good and helpful. As Rajko said, Google Docs works well for collaboration and is very easy to use with a very low learning curve required compared to wiki editing. It makes for a simple way for people to contribute to a rough draft prior to creating a "work in progress" wiki page. The only curve required is for those who enjoy using it to learn how to present the documents for sharing with the correct collaborative sharing controls set so that anyone wishing to contribute can do so just by following the link. No Google account is required and there is no "back room" meetings or "elitist" collaboration happening, just presenting some new tools that work well.
How can you possibly recruit new people who drive-by if everything is outside of the infrastructure? There's a million potential contributors out there, not just this particular group of people. If someone says, "Hmm, I like openSUSE, I want to contribute some of my expertise (or at least develop some skills to contribute.) Let's go searching on the wiki and see where to start" how on earth are they going to know about a Google doc?
Just like anything else, a link to the original doc can be placed within the wiki page which we all know can be edited anyway. I understand the point you are making and it is completely valid. Rajko is just using Docs as a rough draft prior to starting a new wiki. In the end, the wiki will get created anyway and of course will be editable to anyone who feels it needs clarification. For all we know, many people contributing to the wiki are using Google Docs as a starting point for lots of the work being done anyway, they just haven't made it transparent to everyone else as Rajko did. A similar circumstance is how I provided links to the core SVG files in some of the items I presented on Flickr. They actually link to my Dropbox, not a GitHub page but does it really matter as long as anyone can access the SVG files if they need or want to? My feeling is that we focus on sharing information the best we know how and use whatever tools we have available to do so with without concerning ourselves with what those tools are or where they come from.
I dare say that the accusations against folks like Richard and Marcus as being elitist seems hypocritical in this case. Only those who are in the know about the existence of such documents are the elitists, whereas the others have done things out in the open.
It defies logic to expect team growth when all activity is happening outside of the infrastructure.
You are absolutely right! There are no elitists, we are ALL on the same team working towards the same goal "Make openSUSE the best Linux operating system available". We want contributors to have fun, want to be productive, learn and contribute. By arguing openly among ourselves does not paint a "happy community" picture. However, while it's bound to happen among people anywhere who spend a lot of time together to argue, bicker and complain at one point or another on various ways we go about doing things, the core values and family cohesion remains that keeps us together. Stuff just happens outside the infrastructure, but I think it's safe to say that "all" is not necessarily the majority. Rajko and I have worked on a few projects together where I showed him some stuff and he took the time to show me some stuff. He's a good coach and means well as do we all. By making the existence of the document he started within this mailing list means that he invited everyone to collaborate on something he started which just happened to be on the Google Docs platform prior to creating a wiki page. True, only those who subscribe to this page would be aware of it and maybe to start the wiki page with just the Google Docs link and a small excerpt saying "rough draft in progress" would be more transparent. In short, it just stinks when the "family" is arguing among themselves simply because someone offered up something different that not everyone may completely agree with, but in reality doesn't really cause any harm to the family unit. On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Bryen M Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
On Sun, 2013-01-06 at 02:37 +0000, Richard Brown wrote:
Rajko 01/05/13 11:07 PM >>> This is attempt to sort out instructions. Feel free to edit (I hope it is shared for edit), or just add comments if not sure. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K9PNnCvmGU1lC-FG1UQ_2BSHPVip-Y3Ap2-k2OuQ...
Firstly - Why is this document not on the Wiki? Several contributors to this team have already stated their displeasure in using closed platforms as collaboration tools.
I should not need a Google account to contribute to this list
There's more to the problem here than a displeasure, or having an account. It defies transparency to have such documents existing OUTSIDE of the community infrastructure, and it diminishes the ability for a team to grow with new contributors.
How can you possibly recruit new people who drive-by if everything is outside of the infrastructure? There's a million potential contributors out there, not just this particular group of people. If someone says, "Hmm, I like openSUSE, I want to contribute some of my expertise (or at least develop some skills to contribute.) Let's go searching on the wiki and see where to start" how on earth are they going to know about a Google doc?
I dare say that the accusations against folks like Richard and Marcus as being elitist seems hypocritical in this case. Only those who are in the know about the existence of such documents are the elitists, whereas the others have done things out in the open.
It defies logic to expect team growth when all activity is happening outside of the infrastructure.
Bryen
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
-- God bless ! Scott DuBois www.ROGUEHORSE.com openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday 11 January 2013 12:07:20 DuBois, Scott L. wrote:
I have to say that I don't understand the opposition to using free collaborative tools that have the potential to make document sharing easy for everyone.
Neither do I - but luckily, there are better (open source!) replacements for Google Docs when it comes to pure writing: piratepad. I suggest to try to use that - it has an even lower barrier to use, never requires passwords etc. The only downside is that it is decidedly not useable for long-term storage but that is not a huge deal for something like this. Hugs, Jos
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 02:37:16 +0000 "Richard Brown" <rdb@ccb.ac.uk> wrote:
Rajko 01/05/13 11:07 PM >>> This is attempt to sort out instructions. Feel free to edit (I hope it is shared for edit), or just add comments if not sure. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K9PNnCvmGU1lC-FG1UQ_2BSHPVip-Y3Ap2-k2OuQ...
Firstly - Why is this document not on the Wiki?
Because I have feeling that wiki is limited in ability to concurrently edit document, add comments, and similar, but there is wiki page now: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:OpenSUSE-artwork_group_at_Flickr I will take care that after discussion right version is posted to Flickr. There is no need for rush as group has current version. This is more like cleanup and sorting edition.
Several contributors to this team have already stated their displeasure in using closed platforms as collaboration tools.
If they can provide better tools that fit the bill, I'm fine with that, but until that time I'll use what makes collaboration easier, and to satisfy puritans, try to make versions compatible.
I should not need a Google account to contribute to this list
Actually, if I set sharing right, then answer is no. You can see document and comment on it. If not I have to learn about sharing a bit more.
Secondly - As I've made very clear in several posts now, the openSUSE distribution currently requires its artworks to be generated as SVG files. Given Flickr has zero, none, nada, zip, support for Vector formats, the discussion of what we should have as a criteria for any Flickr submission portal is null and void
Requiring SVG is a miss. I'm not sure how that happened that SVG is a requirement. You can get only vector graphics that is asking for skilled artists, and a lot of time to develop it. You miss all super good looking photos and graphics that people create as a bitmap. It-s is one of vector graphics magicians, and I haven't seen any more in openSUSE. Also, what exact format of SVG? I'm working on SUSEgreeter, and background.svg file created for 12.2 greeter is far beyond my comprehension. Why elements of that SVG are in apparently random sizes with empty room on one side, outside of declared page size, etc? All that greeter is asking for is 800x600 png file. Why in the hell one has to fit simple png to svg, just to make out of it png for the package? Is that some script that has requirement for svg? Is that the same script that generated broken gradients for some screen sizes in 12.1? If you have an answer then share it. It is a bit short time to the freeze to let people guess and learn something that needs months.
Until someone steps up and does the work to change that situation (which I've taken the time to describe in an earlier post), then I really think we should put this cyclic conversation to one side and focus on what we need right now - like tackling some of the action items on that list I produced for the team
I think the same right now, but that will be solved, or well on away to be solved, before 13.1. Those that can do art and coding are, on average, not very good at any of that. It is typical case of Jack of all trades and master of none. Art is fuzzy and coding is precise. There is no many brains that can wrap around those two, and if we bet our luck on fewer chances, we lose.
- Rich
In any case thanks for the input. Flickr is there and it will help openSUSE look better. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
Hi again.
Rajko 01/05/13 11:07 PM >>> This is attempt to sort out instructions. Feel free to edit (I hope it is shared for edit), or just add comments if not sure. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K9PNnCvmGU1lC-FG1UQ_2BSHPVip-Y3Ap2-k2OuQ...
Firstly - Why is this document not on the Wiki?
Because I have feeling that wiki is limited in ability to concurrently edit document, add comments, and similar, but there is wiki page now: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:OpenSUSE-artwork_group_at_Flickr
I will take care that after discussion right version is posted to Flickr. There is no need for rush as group has current version. This is more like cleanup and sorting edition.
Several contributors to this team have already stated their displeasure in using closed platforms as collaboration tools.
If they can provide better tools that fit the bill, I'm fine with that, but until that time I'll use what makes collaboration easier, and to satisfy puritans, try to make versions compatible.
I should not need a Google account to contribute to this list
Actually, if I set sharing right, then answer is no. You can see document and comment on it. If not I have to learn about sharing a bit more.
Secondly - As I've made very clear in several posts now, the openSUSE distribution currently requires its artworks to be generated as SVG files. Given Flickr has zero, none, nada, zip, support for Vector formats, the discussion of what we should have as a criteria for any Flickr submission portal is null and void
Requiring SVG is a miss. I'm not sure how that happened that SVG is a requirement.
SVGs are necessary for distro design. Pixel-art can be used for supplementary artwork.
You can get only vector graphics that is asking for skilled artists, and a lot of time to develop it. You miss all super good looking photos and graphics that people create as a bitmap.
From what I read through the lines is that you contributed some nice photos (which many of us like) and want them to see in the distro, right? If so, prepare a supplementary wallpaper package and with your photos. If you managed that, we could discuss afterwards, if we want to make some kind of public contest for additional background images.
It-s is one of vector graphics magicians, and I haven't seen any more in openSUSE.
Also, what exact format of SVG?
I'm working on SUSEgreeter, and background.svg file created for 12.2 greeter is far beyond my comprehension. Why elements of that SVG are in apparently random sizes with empty room on one side, outside of declared page size, etc?
All that greeter is asking for is 800x600 png file. Why in the hell one has to fit simple png to svg, just to make out of it png for the package? Is that some script that has requirement for svg? Is that the same script that generated broken gradients for some screen sizes in 12.1?
If you have an answer then share it. It is a bit short time to the freeze to let people guess and learn something that needs months.
SUSEgreeter is really simple. I could provide a background image for that if you can't work it out. But it's not top priority on my list. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 08:49:54 +0100 Marcus Moeller <mail@marcusmoeller.ch> wrote:
...
Requiring SVG is a miss. I'm not sure how that happened that SVG is a requirement.
SVGs are necessary for distro design. Pixel-art can be used for supplementary artwork.
What is dictating vector graphics? 1) It has limits what can be done with it. 2) It is time consuming creation of graphics. 3) When you want to change image ratio, you still lose parts. So, what makes all above acceptable, and raster images not. ...
From what I read through the lines is that you contributed some nice photos (which many of us like) and want them to see in the distro, right?
You are reading too much between lines. Nice photos there belong to many people. There is only 1 mine that I would put as a wallpaper, but, not as good as other. In other words it is not about me. I see quite a bit of sophisticated graphics in other distros, and I have wish to see the same in openSUSE. openSUSE-artwork at Flickr is nothing more then collection that is easy to review, plus collection that is easy to access by many authors that use Flickr.
If so, prepare a supplementary wallpaper package and with your photos.
If you managed that, we could discuss afterwards, if we want to make some kind of public contest for additional background images.
Hmm, contest is coming first. No discussion about that. Second, if graphics will not enter default openSUSE installation then there is no need to package it. Flickr is more then enough. Everyone knows how to make downloaded image a wallpaper, and that is alternative to politics of art.
SUSEgreeter is really simple. I could provide a background image for that if you can't work it out. But it's not top priority on my list.
It is simple if all work is to create replacement for 12.2 green graphics. Just pick the grow wallpaper and slap it to background.svg, but that way is halfway, but at the moment it seems the only option. Not to mention, that when it is done, I have no idea how to submit it back to github, as there is no explanation how to use branding repo.
Greets Marcus
-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
Am 09.01.2013 05:31, schrieb Rajko:
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 08:49:54 +0100 Marcus Moeller <mail@marcusmoeller.ch> wrote:
...
Requiring SVG is a miss. I'm not sure how that happened that SVG is a requirement.
SVGs are necessary for distro design. Pixel-art can be used for supplementary artwork.
What is dictating vector graphics?
1) It has limits what can be done with it. 2) It is time consuming creation of graphics. 3) When you want to change image ratio, you still lose parts.
So, what makes all above acceptable, and raster images not.
With vector graphics, scaling is not a problem at all. Elements could be easily re-arranged. With Pixel graphics you will always loose something, even if they are layered correctly. It's also easier to create other artwork elements from Vector images. And there are hundrets of other reasons. Richard will likely add some more. ...
If you managed that, we could discuss afterwards, if we want to make some kind of public contest for additional background images.
Hmm, contest is coming first. No discussion about that.
Second, if graphics will not enter default openSUSE installation then there is no need to package it. Flickr is more then enough. Everyone knows how to make downloaded image a wallpaper, and that is alternative to politics of art.
This is a chicken and egg problem. If noone packags them, they will not enter the default distribution. At the end, it might be a question of space that is left on the installation media. You could always ask on opensuse-project about that. As we got tons of other things to do for 12.3, I will not take care about that, sorry.
SUSEgreeter is really simple. I could provide a background image for that if you can't work it out. But it's not top priority on my list.
It is simple if all work is to create replacement for 12.2 green graphics. Just pick the grow wallpaper and slap it to background.svg, but that way is halfway, but at the moment it seems the only option. Not to mention, that when it is done, I have no idea how to submit it back to github, as there is no explanation how to use branding repo.
The workflow is as follows: First publish it here (either as a direct download link, or even better in the artwork git). Afterwards it needs to be pushed to branding. Forking is a good way to do so: https://help.github.com/articles/fork-a-repo Branding is documented well within the branches, e.g.: https://github.com/openSUSE/branding/blob/12.3/README General instructions can be found here: https://github.com/openSUSE/branding/blob/master/README Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Bryen M Yunashko -
DuBois, Scott L. -
Jos Poortvliet -
Marcus Moeller -
Rajko -
Richard Brown