Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1556 mails)

[Sven Burmeister <sven.burmeister@xxxxxxx>]

Am Montag, 10. August 2009 22:57:44 schrieb Istvan Gabor:
> > Either a lot of people miss a function, then it is likely that it will be
> > re> implemented (KDE4 plasma was written from scratch) or the
> > functionality is not really as popular as you think. Maybe some even
> > considered it as clutter.
>
> I do not know how you know what feature is how popular. Did you make
> statistics?

It's simple statistics. Every xth user can develop, so if there are enough 
users that really need this, there would also be a developer who really needs 
this. On top of that, if there are that many users that really need a feature 
because it's crucial, one of them would be willing to pay for it. If nobody of 
let's say 5000 people is willing to pay for that all so crucial feature, then 
it's not really that important.

> Most of the people who miss some functionality are just too
> busy or lazy to complain about it. Bug reports do not respect what people
> generally think about the program/OS. I even do not think that developers
> (in this case KDE developers and openSUSE developers) know what features
> are how popular. It is obvious from the last 1-2 year history of KDE and
> openSUSE.

You get OS for free, so if you cannot even be bothered to file bug reports, 
then you should not complain about anything missing. Claiming that something 
is "obvious" without showing any objective evidence, yet demanding me to show 
you statistics is not very consequent either.

> > Complaining about something you get for free and at the same time not be
> > willing to spend your own resources on something you consider crucial
> > seems a bit inconsistent. Why should somebody else do you a favour if you
> > yourself are not willing to put that work/money into it?
>
> This is absolutely nonsense. First, how do you know what I or anyone else
> did so far for making it (KDE, openSUSE, othre opensource) better? How do
> you know that I have not purchased the openSUSE boxed set?

Then your payed as much as the DVD and the cardbox etc. cost, nothing extra.

> Ho do you know
> that I have not payed for other linux software (eg. Crossover Office)? But
> all this has nothing to do with the issue I have raised.

You miss the point. You want feature x but are not willing to pay for it or 
program it yourself, so you won't get it. Just because you spend money on 
Crossover or similar does not get you anything but - you guessed it already - 
Crossover. So unless you spend resources on the hide-buttons, you won't get 
them unless somebody else does the spending.

> off: I think that putting KDE4 as default in openSUSE 11.1 in a so
> unmatured, unpolished state was a very big mistake. Many people might have
> left openSUSE and linux for good because of this.

Might? Above you ignore simple statistics and now you claim that a lot of 
people might have left? Not very consequent argumentation, if you only believe 
others if they show you statistics, don't you think?

> Second, do you think that those people who are just using the OS, and took
> serious time to learn how to use it, will start learing everything again
> because of a change? KDE3 and KDE4 differ so much. It is like an absolutely
> different OS. I take the time and try to learn the new things - but I am
> not willing to do it again and again. And those who I am talking of, like
> my parents and many more, certainly will not do it. This policy does not
> not attract more and more people to use linux but scares them away.

You lose some and you win some. If KDE4 is not for you then nobody forces you 
to use it. However, just because you are not willing to learn new things you 
should not force others to not create new things and have to work with old 
fashioned tools. Hide buttons are really a bad example because I bet your 
parents can work without them. In fact, having new features like the little 
icon in dolphin when hovering a file, removes the need to learn that you have 
to press Ctrl to select multiple files.

If you have a look at e.g. the iPhone you will see that new things do not 
scare people away.

> > > > As with all opensource things you use for free there are only two
> > > > ways to get the features you want: a) spend your own money or free
> > > > time to get them implemented b) wait until somebody else does so.
>
> It is exactly what I am doing. That's why I asked the question.
> Furthermore using a software and spreading it is also a mean of support.

Sure it's support, but it won't get you any features. It is even questionable 
whether it makes up for the time others spend on providing you with that 
software you use for free.

> > So? KDE3 is dead and just because somebody spent his time on it, does not
> > mean that the same person will spend his time again on KDE4 implementing
> > the same feature.
>
> If I produce something that has nice features certainly I will not improve
> it by removing those features.

"Nice" depends on your subjective view. As I said, if there were a lot of 
people who would think the same way, chances are that at least one of them is 
either a developer or willing to invest money on that feature.

> I also know that until KDE3 will be available I will use it, and will not
> switch to KDE4 unless it will have all the functionality that KDE3 has/had.
> You don't want to sit back from your nice car to a coach.

You don't want to live in the past either. Nobody forces you do do anything. 
If you want to stay with KDE3 or switch DE, fair enough. If KDE4 was really 
that bad, nobody would use it and it will die in the end. Make your bets.

There was a lot of "we are going to fork KDE3 and continue it" when KDE 4 came 
out - and what happend? Nothing, because those people were just shouting and 
complaining without willing to invest their resources. That's how important 
KDE3 is to them.

Sven
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