Am Montag, 10. August 2009 19:52:32 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

Hello:

...

Since I assume that the usage of the panel is not that binary for the majority, i.e. hide buttons=useable, no hide buttons=unuseable the priority will be quite low. If a lot of people could not get their work done without those buttons, it would be implemented already.

That is not the point. In KDE3 there was an option to add hide-buttons. In case of KDE4 the "development" resulted in a less-functional window manager. Not only in this regard.

Either a lot of people miss a function, then it is likely that it will be re- implemented (KDE4 plasma was written from scratch) or the functionality is not really as popular as you think. Maybe some even considered it as clutter. If you need it, do something to get it or wait. That's the way opensource works. Complaining about something you get for free and at the same time not be willing to spend your own resources on something you consider crucial seems a bit inconsistent. Why should somebody else do you a favour if you yourself are not willing to put that work/money into it?

...

As with all opensource things you use for free there are only two ways to get the features you want: a) spend your own money or free time to get them implemented b) wait until somebody else does so.

The same applies compared to KDE3.

So? KDE3 is dead and just because somebody spent his time on it, does not mean that the same person will spend his time again on KDE4 implementing the same feature. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 10. August 2009 22:57:44 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

...

Either a lot of people miss a function, then it is likely that it will be re> implemented (KDE4 plasma was written from scratch) or the functionality is not really as popular as you think. Maybe some even considered it as clutter.

I do not know how you know what feature is how popular. Did you make statistics?

It's simple statistics. Every xth user can develop, so if there are enough users that really need this, there would also be a developer who really needs this. On top of that, if there are that many users that really need a feature because it's crucial, one of them would be willing to pay for it. If nobody of let's say 5000 people is willing to pay for that all so crucial feature, then it's not really that important.

Most of the people who miss some functionality are just too busy or lazy to complain about it. Bug reports do not respect what people generally think about the program/OS. I even do not think that developers (in this case KDE developers and openSUSE developers) know what features are how popular. It is obvious from the last 1-2 year history of KDE and openSUSE.

You get OS for free, so if you cannot even be bothered to file bug reports, then you should not complain about anything missing. Claiming that something is "obvious" without showing any objective evidence, yet demanding me to show you statistics is not very consequent either.

...

Complaining about something you get for free and at the same time not be willing to spend your own resources on something you consider crucial seems a bit inconsistent. Why should somebody else do you a favour if you yourself are not willing to put that work/money into it?

This is absolutely nonsense. First, how do you know what I or anyone else did so far for making it (KDE, openSUSE, othre opensource) better? How do you know that I have not purchased the openSUSE boxed set?

Then your payed as much as the DVD and the cardbox etc. cost, nothing extra.

Ho do you know that I have not payed for other linux software (eg. Crossover Office)? But all this has nothing to do with the issue I have raised.

You miss the point. You want feature x but are not willing to pay for it or program it yourself, so you won't get it. Just because you spend money on Crossover or similar does not get you anything but - you guessed it already - Crossover. So unless you spend resources on the hide-buttons, you won't get them unless somebody else does the spending.

off: I think that putting KDE4 as default in openSUSE 11.1 in a so unmatured, unpolished state was a very big mistake. Many people might have left openSUSE and linux for good because of this.

Might? Above you ignore simple statistics and now you claim that a lot of people might have left? Not very consequent argumentation, if you only believe others if they show you statistics, don't you think?

Second, do you think that those people who are just using the OS, and took serious time to learn how to use it, will start learing everything again because of a change? KDE3 and KDE4 differ so much. It is like an absolutely different OS. I take the time and try to learn the new things - but I am not willing to do it again and again. And those who I am talking of, like my parents and many more, certainly will not do it. This policy does not not attract more and more people to use linux but scares them away.

You lose some and you win some. If KDE4 is not for you then nobody forces you to use it. However, just because you are not willing to learn new things you should not force others to not create new things and have to work with old fashioned tools. Hide buttons are really a bad example because I bet your parents can work without them. In fact, having new features like the little icon in dolphin when hovering a file, removes the need to learn that you have to press Ctrl to select multiple files. If you have a look at e.g. the iPhone you will see that new things do not scare people away.

...

...

...

As with all opensource things you use for free there are only two ways to get the features you want: a) spend your own money or free time to get them implemented b) wait until somebody else does so.

It is exactly what I am doing. That's why I asked the question. Furthermore using a software and spreading it is also a mean of support.

Sure it's support, but it won't get you any features. It is even questionable whether it makes up for the time others spend on providing you with that software you use for free.

...

So? KDE3 is dead and just because somebody spent his time on it, does not mean that the same person will spend his time again on KDE4 implementing the same feature.

If I produce something that has nice features certainly I will not improve it by removing those features.

"Nice" depends on your subjective view. As I said, if there were a lot of people who would think the same way, chances are that at least one of them is either a developer or willing to invest money on that feature.

I also know that until KDE3 will be available I will use it, and will not switch to KDE4 unless it will have all the functionality that KDE3 has/had. You don't want to sit back from your nice car to a coach.

You don't want to live in the past either. Nobody forces you do do anything. If you want to stay with KDE3 or switch DE, fair enough. If KDE4 was really that bad, nobody would use it and it will die in the end. Make your bets. There was a lot of "we are going to fork KDE3 and continue it" when KDE 4 came out - and what happend? Nothing, because those people were just shouting and complaining without willing to invest their resources. That's how important KDE3 is to them. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 11. August 2009 22:00:19 schrieb Peter Nikolic:

On Monday 10 Aug 2009 20:03:12 Sven Burmeister wrote: pruned

...

So? KDE3 is dead and just because somebody spent his time on it, does not mean that the same person will spend his time again on KDE4 implementing the same feature.

I just got to pile in here ..

Just because KDE3 is no longer supported does NOT mean we should be expected to put up with an inferior replacement althou it seems plainly obvious that you think new should = inferior quite how or why never fails to amuse me you Sven are both amusingly laughable rather sad at the same time with your defense of poor quality by coming up with lame duck excuses for it ..

As long as I'm not as frustrated and do not have such a self-centered attitude as you do, I'm fine, thanks. Sven PS: You did not even get the point because of trying so hard... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 12 Aug 2009 13:32:09 Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

...

I am using openSUSE 10.3 with kde3 but occasionally I check 11.1 with the latest kde4 version (factory, kde4.3 currently). Do you think that they ever will add hide-panel-buttons to the panel? For me the panel is unusable if I cannot hide it when I want (automatic hiding is not an option).

I can set auto-hide on the panel via the panel cashew in 4.3. All you have to do is move the mouse to the bottom of the screen and it re-appears which seems just as good. I also used to use the hide buttons on KDE3 but the auto-hide now suits me fine and i dont miss the hide-panel buttons.

Thank you Ian. I will try then the auto-hide option, though I never liked it in widows. In kde3 I never used it. Cheers, Istvan I never liked it in Windows either but its great under KDE4, it just feels natural in the way it works. Under Windows i never trusted it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

I never liked it in Windows either but its great under KDE4, it just feels natural in the way it works. Under Windows i never trusted it.

It's not that I do not trust it, I just don't like it "blinking" on and off. Furthermore sometimes windows with clickable buttons (like OK, cancel, etc.) are sized in way that the button's location lies "behind" the panel bar. In this case the only option is to use the panel hide button to make the panel disseapear and make visible those buttons. I suppose (I haven't tried it in KDE4 though) that automatic hiding would result in reappearing the panel when I move the mouse over the selectable buttons and would cover them, practically make it impossible to clik them. I had this type of problem in KDE3 with windows of gtk applications like xsane or gimp if I remember correctly.

Istvan

The autohidden panel comes up when your mouse hits the edge of the screen. If you have to hit the edge of the screen to select a button, you may want to think twice about not resizing that window. It is advisable to try out something before you start coming up with reasons why it probably won't work for you. Nkoli -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org