Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (2255 mails)
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Re: [opensuse] Opensuse still not ready for consumers...
- From: Richard Creighton <rccj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:11:19 -0500
- Message-id: <200903121311.20096.rccj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
On Thu March 12 2009 11:20:42 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
Perhaps the PulseAudio issue of dependency is not the real issue. I think
Larry was trying to point out that LAZY programming practices where
dependencies are made at much to high levels and bring in entire systems of
often unrelated programs and subsystems that have no bearing or support for the
program the library/dependency was added to with perhaps only 1 or two of the
lower level subsystems included in that higher level library. A proper
dependency would be to separate the lower level sub-library and make that the
dependency. Of course, that takes extra work and given it only adds a
megabyte or a few hundred kilobytes to do it the easy way, they just add the
whole kaboodle...and don't even make a stub library AND the big 'kaboodle'
library which could then be left out if someone wanted to remove the package
without destroying the links you mentioned necessary for those other functions
you mentioned used by KDE, Gnome or other libraries that might use the package.
Now, other lazy inclusions by other packagers include (in this case)
PulseAudio as a library which now can't be removed because it includes stuff
that can't be removed because it includes things that depend on things it loads
due to ether lazy practices which prevade todays programming. So, we end up
with Dependency Hell and OpenSuSE becomes increasingly competitive with Windoze
in terms of size and bloat and difficulty of maintainence or troubleshooting.
Listen, I love Linux, truly think OpenSuSE is one of, if not the best
distributions available, but that doesn't mean that constructive criticism from
people like Larry that happen to disagree with a particular direction it is
taking (and he is not alone if you read all the posts) or if he or others that
simply want the extremely high standards that OpenSuSE has achieved to be
maintained or advanced and NOT be compromised and reduced to the lowest common
denominator of the Windoze world.
That, Carlos, is why I was so suprised to see you suggest to Larry that he
abandon his choice of distribution for *anything* else as opposed to supporting
his call for suggesting implementing your idea of a stub library plus the
existing library (if not a proper subset containing only the actual required
subroutines) instead of the all or nothing dependency hell that is increasingly
perpetuated by PA and others recently that Larry was complaining about.
--
Richard
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Larry Stotler wrote:Carlos,
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Carlos E. R.
<robin.listas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Then leave and go there, please.
Never would I have expected that from you.
Well, you refuse to understand why it can't be done what you want. You
say they do it better... therefore, you have to use that distro,
opensuse is not for you.
I'm not excluding or firing you.
Perhaps the PulseAudio issue of dependency is not the real issue. I think
Larry was trying to point out that LAZY programming practices where
dependencies are made at much to high levels and bring in entire systems of
often unrelated programs and subsystems that have no bearing or support for the
program the library/dependency was added to with perhaps only 1 or two of the
lower level subsystems included in that higher level library. A proper
dependency would be to separate the lower level sub-library and make that the
dependency. Of course, that takes extra work and given it only adds a
megabyte or a few hundred kilobytes to do it the easy way, they just add the
whole kaboodle...and don't even make a stub library AND the big 'kaboodle'
library which could then be left out if someone wanted to remove the package
without destroying the links you mentioned necessary for those other functions
you mentioned used by KDE, Gnome or other libraries that might use the package.
Now, other lazy inclusions by other packagers include (in this case)
PulseAudio as a library which now can't be removed because it includes stuff
that can't be removed because it includes things that depend on things it loads
due to ether lazy practices which prevade todays programming. So, we end up
with Dependency Hell and OpenSuSE becomes increasingly competitive with Windoze
in terms of size and bloat and difficulty of maintainence or troubleshooting.
Listen, I love Linux, truly think OpenSuSE is one of, if not the best
distributions available, but that doesn't mean that constructive criticism from
people like Larry that happen to disagree with a particular direction it is
taking (and he is not alone if you read all the posts) or if he or others that
simply want the extremely high standards that OpenSuSE has achieved to be
maintained or advanced and NOT be compromised and reduced to the lowest common
denominator of the Windoze world.
That, Carlos, is why I was so suprised to see you suggest to Larry that he
abandon his choice of distribution for *anything* else as opposed to supporting
his call for suggesting implementing your idea of a stub library plus the
existing library (if not a proper subset containing only the actual required
subroutines) instead of the all or nothing dependency hell that is increasingly
perpetuated by PA and others recently that Larry was complaining about.
--
Richard
--
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For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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