On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

Removing pulseaudio should be workaround until guys fix some problems between alsa and pulseaudio.

I'd love to know why this is the case. Still way too many stupid dependencies in openSUSE. It was getting better, but this is just stupid. I don't use pulseaudio, nor want to. Just like trying to remove avahi. Unable to without removing half of my system. Does anyone know who's in charge of actually accepting the dependencies that seem to be happening? Because I don't think they are actually looking at them. Not trying to rant against you Rajko, but I've been debating dumping suse for a while now. The build quality has deteriorated since opensuse(with ups and down - 10.0, 10.2, 11.0 up, 10.1, 10.3, 11.1 down). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

If you want any distributor to remove that last dependency, they have to provide to complete set of rpms, one with, the other without pulsaudio. That's impossible.

But why? Why do the devs feel the need to force stuff on us? I'm constantly removing that crappy Bonjour service on WinDoZe machines to free up resources, and I have yet to see any advantage to something like avahi. Same with pulse audio.

Or you have to convince all the devs for all packages involved to build a plugin system for all their things (meaning all kde).

That would be nice

As that is not possible, just remove most of pulseaudio, while leaving the linked-to library. That small one can not be removed. But don't worry, that library alone does not provide pulseaudio, it is efectively removed for allp practical purposes.

True. The KDE devs are too busy re-inventing the wheel and deciding how I should use MY desktop. They've focused on eye candy and not stability and usability. I've yet to see any compelling reason to use KDE4. KDE3 is a solid, reliable desktop. When/IF KDE4 becomes the same, I would be willing to use it. While I'm all for being able to make use of new features and trying to get people to use KDE, it should not be done at the expense of those of us who have been supporting it for 10 years now. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Everything else can be removed, except one library. And one library is nothing. That is how things are designed.

So, that's why when I just tried to install Pidgin, I was told I have to install network manager. WHY IS THAT ONE? (not yelling at you, just blown away). I have no need or want of networkmanager, but to run pidgin I HAVE to install it(and since I told it to ignore, it won't run at all). That's a crock of crap. 11.0/KDE3

Accept it.

Nope.

If you feel you can design something else, just join the developers teams, and design it >:-)

If I was a programmer, I would. Since I'm not, I'll start looking elsewhere. Maybe Slackware of Debian where they don't dependency everything...... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Kai Ponte wrote:

You can also go with Mac and still be running Unix, if that floats your boat.

Actually, I run openSUSE on my Macs. But Debian runs on Macs just as well as openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Kai Ponte wrote:

Ahh, I understand. I didn't mean for that to happen. I was referring to OSX.  My mac - running OS 6.0.4 - cannot even get on teh intraweb... ...I doubt it can run openSUSE either. :P

It might run Debian. I don't know your exact model tho. There is a 68k Linux project and there is also NetBSD which will run on a lot of older prePPC macs as well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Then leave and go there, please.

Never would I have expected that from you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

Well, you are very *supportive* and that is our purpose.  Your contributive balance seems to be very much in the negative.  It would make the list a little more plesant.

And I haven't been? I've been negative lately because I don't agree with where the distro is going. I guess that's not allowed? No one is allowed to disagree? Maybe I've went too far recently, but when I am asked to offer feedback for a meeting, and then my feedback is ignored, I don't get into too good of a mood. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Larry Stotler [03-12-09 08:07]:

...

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Then leave and go there, please. Never would I have expected that from you.

Well, you are very *supportive* and that is our purpose. Your contributive balance seems to be very much in the negative. It would make the list a little more plesant.

Patrick, your WRONG! Larry's been a LONG TIME user and has contributed, doing a lot of testing over the years, and has been helpful. He has a right to feel the way he does, as many do. Fred -- The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12 March 09, Fred A. Miller wrote:

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Larry Stotler [03-12-09 08:07]:

...

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Carlos E. R.

wrote:

...

Then leave and go there, please.

Never would I have expected that from you.

Well, you are very *supportive* and that is our purpose. Your contributive balance seems to be very much in the negative. It would make the list a little more plesant.

Patrick, your WRONG! Larry's been a LONG TIME user and has contributed, doing a lot of testing over the years, and has been helpful. He has a right to feel the way he does, as many do.

*ALL* people have the right to bitch about it, *especially* if they've paid for something. If there's little wussies who can't handle people ragging on their poor widdle OS, they need to go out and get a life in a better work environment that will toughen up their thin skin! (This wasn't directed at you, Fred. It just proves that too many on this list have turned into the exact same thing *they* bitched about of M$ worshippers and can't even see it!) -- If pro is opposite of con, then what is the opposite of progress? Congress! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu March 12 2009 11:20:42 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Then leave and go there, please.

Never would I have expected that from you.

Well, you refuse to understand why it can't be done what you want. You say they do it better... therefore, you have to use that distro, opensuse is not for you.

I'm not excluding or firing you.

Carlos, Perhaps the PulseAudio issue of dependency is not the real issue. I think Larry was trying to point out that LAZY programming practices where dependencies are made at much to high levels and bring in entire systems of often unrelated programs and subsystems that have no bearing or support for the program the library/dependency was added to with perhaps only 1 or two of the lower level subsystems included in that higher level library. A proper dependency would be to separate the lower level sub-library and make that the dependency. Of course, that takes extra work and given it only adds a megabyte or a few hundred kilobytes to do it the easy way, they just add the whole kaboodle...and don't even make a stub library AND the big 'kaboodle' library which could then be left out if someone wanted to remove the package without destroying the links you mentioned necessary for those other functions you mentioned used by KDE, Gnome or other libraries that might use the package. Now, other lazy inclusions by other packagers include (in this case) PulseAudio as a library which now can't be removed because it includes stuff that can't be removed because it includes things that depend on things it loads due to ether lazy practices which prevade todays programming. So, we end up with Dependency Hell and OpenSuSE becomes increasingly competitive with Windoze in terms of size and bloat and difficulty of maintainence or troubleshooting. Listen, I love Linux, truly think OpenSuSE is one of, if not the best distributions available, but that doesn't mean that constructive criticism from people like Larry that happen to disagree with a particular direction it is taking (and he is not alone if you read all the posts) or if he or others that simply want the extremely high standards that OpenSuSE has achieved to be maintained or advanced and NOT be compromised and reduced to the lowest common denominator of the Windoze world. That, Carlos, is why I was so suprised to see you suggest to Larry that he abandon his choice of distribution for *anything* else as opposed to supporting his call for suggesting implementing your idea of a stub library plus the existing library (if not a proper subset containing only the actual required subroutines) instead of the all or nothing dependency hell that is increasingly perpetuated by PA and others recently that Larry was complaining about. -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard Creighton wrote:

On Thu March 12 2009 11:20:42 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Then leave and go there, please. Never would I have expected that from you. Well, you refuse to understand why it can't be done what you want. You say they do it better... therefore, you have to use that distro, opensuse is not for you.

I'm not excluding or firing you.

Carlos, Perhaps the PulseAudio issue of dependency is not the real issue. I think Larry was trying to point out that LAZY programming practices where dependencies are made at much to high levels and bring in entire systems of often unrelated programs and subsystems that have no bearing or support for the program the library/dependency was added to with perhaps only 1 or two of the lower level subsystems included in that higher level library. A proper dependency would be to separate the lower level sub-library and make that the dependency. Of course, that takes extra work and given it only adds a megabyte or a few hundred kilobytes to do it the easy way, they just add the whole kaboodle...and don't even make a stub library AND the big 'kaboodle' library which could then be left out if someone wanted to remove the package without destroying the links you mentioned necessary for those other functions you mentioned used by KDE, Gnome or other libraries that might use the package.

That's precisely what I have been saying all along: pulseaudio is designed that way. There is a library you can not remove, and if you try it will remove the desktop, and there is the big rest which you can remove. In fact, if you go to YaST, Hardware, Sound configuration, then on the "Other" button there is a list, one of which items says "Pulse Audio configuration", which if selected allows you to enable or disable pulseaudio. I fact, mine is disabled. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.1-ex-factory) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm5b3YACgkQU92UU+smfQWJpQCeMmPDixfDTou+98nOAJAbc2RC Gz0AniMopqxUyuvfNH9eftUYg3Y6x5XM =bBP7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard Creighton wrote:

We are nearly on the same wavelength, I think....the difference is that it is slightly more than just 'disabling' something that is installed versus not installing something in the first place or at least minimizing the amount of stuff that is installed by removing most of the package. Simply installing the package and the libraries and then simply saying to Yast to not execute or use that code is a waste of space/memory and reduces the probability that older/smaller machines can load/run SuSE or upgrade from older versions to newer (bloated) versions that use the unwanted libraries and defaulted but unused programs that can't be removed even if disabled.

Well, today I have been told in a Bugzilla that the bug I reported in 2007 will not be solved because my hardware is old (it is a P-IV from Dec 2001). Which is to say, that openSUSE is officially tailored for newer hardware :-(

FWIW, I too disable PA, Beagle and a number of other defaulted 'features' in SuSE and prefer 3.5.10 KDE even though I devote a machine to testing 4.2 and until the other night, that machine ran also 11.1 until the factory update when it crashed and burned. When I want to DO anything, I return to 11.0 and 3.5.10, no Beagle or PA, use KMail, Firefox, VBox (when I need XP for something), read all of your, Freds, Larry's and David Rankins' posts religously (and a few others) and try to ignore the KDE4 rabble-rousers that shout so loud. Carlos, I'm not as fatalistic as you are, but usually you give good advice....but not to go elsewhere.... :(

Fatalist? Mmmm... I'll have to masticate that :-} Yes, I would prefer to being able to remove avahi, the same as I can remove PA. But I can't. I also can't update to 11.1 due to its bugs. That's life. But that will not make me think of migrating to another distro, though. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.1-ex-factory) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm5stwACgkQU92UU+smfQXSCgCeOoWRzz5zEusVstZdTSejAwXJ IxQAn1BjtpH/Qg0GnncTbI09IDhIWIN/ =ueR0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard Creighton wrote:

On Thu March 12 2009 4:24:22 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

That's precisely what I have been saying all along: pulseaudio is designed that way. There is a library you can not remove, and if you try it will remove the desktop, and there is the big rest which you can remove.

That really says that that DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT or environment(S) if there are more than one, are at fault if the DEs depend on a single audio library package so intimately that the DE will fail completely to the point of removal if PA is removed completely especially given there are alternative audio environments available in the system for any DE to use. This is not actually a problem with PA, but with the respective DE(s).

You are not understanding. You can remove ALL of PA, except a small library, libpulse0. Half a megabyte! There is no problem at all with those desktops. Sigh... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.1-ex-factory) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm5t6wACgkQU92UU+smfQUQ7wCfVuOTNMYAred3fVd8TCcpzl86 mZYAmwRZTA+M05ch1E4iCl/rKRjNmJ3n =rduu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mukul Singh wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

You are not understanding. You can remove ALL of PA, except a small library, libpulse0. Half a megabyte! There is no problem at all with those desktops.

Sigh... That has not been my experience. I removed pulse except that library and the sound won't work on my laptop unless I do rcalsasound restart. BTW, I have tried VLC as suggested by another person and that too did not work.

Obviously! First you have to configure your system to use another sound system. You can not hope to remove the current sound system that your machine is using, and hope it to work. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.1-ex-factory) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm5u5kACgkQU92UU+smfQWNJwCdEjQi3QXBf8kmTXqLIPQeVeqG gBIAnifynuRcYyVH99oiv2XRVRKI+GUR =Q+zQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-03-13 at 13:57 +1100, Mukul Singh wrote:

...

Obviously! First you have to configure your system to use another sound system. You can not hope to remove the current sound system that your machine is using, and hope it to work. That's the thing... it is a mess at teh moment. I thought after removing pulse, as suggested to me earlier, the sound should work using alsa. Anyway, thanks for the help.

Uninstalling is not always the easy way, specially if something is configured to use what you uninstall. The easy way is going to the sound configuration module in Yast and telling it to dissable pulseaudio. Once it works, then remove the no longer needed parts. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkm51FwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VAVACeKB4lSvCbEfgwOLJS9L+QdcIF rboAoIyGE1LPWSALM1WEwNVXB05NhW6G =6XzZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, March 12, 2009 12:58, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Then leave and go there, please.

Never would I have expected that from you.

What, you don't expect honesty from Carlos? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 11 March 09, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Larry Stotler [03-11-09 22:05]:

...

So, that's why when I just tried to install Pidgin, I was told I have to install network manager. WHY IS THAT ONE? (not yelling at you, just blown away). I have no need or want of networkmanager, but to run pidgin I HAVE to install it(and since I told it to ignore, it won't run at all). That's a crock of crap. 11.0/KDE3

You have to have a computer, too. Another crock?

You and Carlos, in this particular thread, sound *E-X-A-C-T-L-Y* like every single M$ defender did/do with W98 and later. Their favorite defense shout-down...'you don't have enough RAM'. You guys...'We like it, if you don't, go away'. Then, when someone calls you on your a$$holishness, you pull the 'I don't have to listen to someone tell me I'm wrong, I'll just bitbucket him. Nyaah!' I'm watching you two (and some few others) do no less than a$$holes on M$ mailing lists and forums do to push people they don't like away. You (and the few others) are as bad if not worse than most politicians - hypocrites and lairs saying you use linux because you're more open and everyone else should too...unless you don't agree with us! -- Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Larry Stotler wrote:

Linux has always been pushed as an alternative for older hardware, but now the openSUSE devs are pushing for the latest and greatest(and not all of them.

That is unfortunately true. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.1-ex-factory) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm5KMkACgkQU92UU+smfQUrEQCfVZ9KDIGdH76za7mvgGaMo9ng 7fIAoJIoGzReaen9tihCMqNrFDo6R8yZ =C5/8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 12 March 2009 10:18:08 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

The current solution is the best they have, with the available resources and knowledge.

... and current layoffs don't help to expand activity. As mentioned in another mail, user that doesn't like size or some applications, can, with little effort, create own configuration and replicate it on every consecutive installation. YaST Software Management > File > Export and Import when you want to replicate installation. If system was configured without requests to ignore dependencies, this should work fine. For instance, in VBox installation I removed patterns that are not needed and the installation was reasonably responsive. One of patterns that might be Larry's favorite for removal is Desktop Effects. If it is removed during installation nothing related to effects will be installed. Later, is more work, as removing pattern doesn't remove packages. You have to remove (uncheck) every package listed in the pattern, but even that is not holly script. This is also one area where openSUSE users can help development team. Instead of endless complains in all possible direction, export you favorite selection and offer as a sample. (I'll post this idea on opensuse-project, to see how to organize place where such configurations can be uploaded.) This will remove a lot of guesswork, what people like. Just as with screen savers, number of downloads will be the judge. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Larry Stotler [03-12-09 16:07]:

When you remove it before installing, you can and it works. When you try after, it's broken. However, I have found that when I do remove before, when I try to install other programs after installation, I get all those I removed listed as dependencies UNLESS I taboo them. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Kind of like getting a wheel bearing repack when you got a brake job, but didn't order the repack :^) The repack wasn't *necessary* (maybe), but was a "good idea". -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Kind of like getting a wheel bearing repack when you got a brake job, but didn't order the repack :^)

The repack wasn't *necessary* (maybe), but was a "good idea".

Can't agree with that one. I'd say it's more like ordering the basic model car with a manual and getting it and then taking it in and it comes out with an auto trans and power everything. The only thing missing is the bill.

I regularly use older hardware with no issues, and have no use for eye candy, and I'm not alone. But when we have complained about eyecandy, bling, and stability issues, we've been ignored or told we are wrong for not using the new stuff. That has gotten old. I know Carlos was trying to explain something. I just don't agree with the reasoning behind it. Richard Creighton's reply earlier summed it up best.

I, for one, am also against eye candy, particularly when it come at the cost of unreliablility, loss of function and poor performance. And if it's included, make sure it's easy to turn off. In a similar light, I can't stand to watch some TV shows, because the producers seem to think special effects are more important than content. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Thu, 12 Mar 2009, Larry Stotler wrote:

Dependencies will still be a problem. They have been and probably will be. My argument has always been why is something a dependency. There are too many dependencies. Like if I install KDE-PIM, it installs palm utils. Why not ask me if I have a palm, and then install the utils. How many people who use a PIM on a computer actually have a Palm?

The problem is, that if kdepim wants to support libpalm (or whatever its name is) at all, then it has to either link to the lib, and thus the lib must be installed together with kdepim or it has to dlopen the lib. The best way would be a plugin that is dlopen'd by the app, and only the plugin links to libpalm. That way, the app has no dependency on libpalm, and the palm-plugin can be in a seperate package. The same problem and possible solutions applies to libpulse. -dnh -- Get back there in front of the computer NOW. Christmas can wait. -- Linus "the Grinch" Torvalds, 24 Dec 2000 on linux-kernel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 13 March 09, Amedee Van Gasse (amedee.be) wrote:

On Thu, March 12, 2009 01:38, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 10:49 PM, Carlos E. R.

wrote:

...

If you want any distributor to remove that last dependency, they have to provide to complete set of rpms, one with, the other without pulsaudio. That's impossible.

But why? Why do the devs feel the need to force stuff on us? I'm constantly removing that crappy Bonjour service on WinDoZe machines to free up resources, and I have yet to see any advantage to something like avahi. Same with pulse audio.

Maybe you should take a look at the Gentoo distribution. You have to compile everything yourself (but that is easy&automated) and you can specify which deps you don't want with USE-flags.

Warning: Gentoo is not pointyclick oriented. ;-)

But Gentoo is <shudder> Gnome <shudder> oriented, correct? -- Those who see no difference between people legally immigrating to the US and people who come here illegally must likewise see no difference between consensual sex and rape. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 10 March 2009 09:17:42 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:16 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

Removing pulseaudio should be workaround until guys fix some problems between alsa and pulseaudio.

I'd love to know why this is the case. Still way too many stupid dependencies in openSUSE. It was getting better, but this is just stupid. I don't use pulseaudio, nor want to. Just like trying to remove avahi. Unable to without removing half of my system. Does anyone know who's in charge of actually accepting the dependencies that seem to be happening? Because I don't think they are actually looking at them.

They do. It is not that someone missed that, it's just decision to have it by default. If it would work properly, it would be great way to listen music delivered from one to any computer on the LAN.

Not trying to rant against you Rajko, but I've been debating dumping suse for a while now. The build quality has deteriorated since opensuse(with ups and down - 10.0, 10.2, 11.0 up, 10.1, 10.3, 11.1 down).

It's not against anybody Larry. You are not alone with that feeling, and there was debate on opensuse-project mail list. Everybody is invited to meeting tomorrow: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-03/msg00083.html -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote:

Unfortunately, I can't make it. "Dependency Hell" is still with us, and MUST be fixed. For example, if you install the 4 OpenOffice "extra" files for 3.09, I believe it is, and then want to update OO from the openSUSE listed OO site, you end up with a slew of dependency issues, for both 32 and 64-bit systems! This has existed now for over 3 weeks! This is the type of nonsense that WILL and DOES turn off newbies, let alone those of us who are seasoned vets.

What's the point in us testing and providing feedback and making our voices heard if we are ignored? I'm now looking to move on. 10 years of supporting SuSE for this. 11.1 is a broken piece of crap that I don't even want to look at again. If the devs don't give a crap about what we have to say, then I know when I'm not wanted. I pushed for KDE3 to remain in 11.1 only to see if get screwed up if you don't do anything but a standard install. Looks like it's time to quit wasting our time Fred. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed March 11 2009 10:41:20 pm Fred A. Miller wrote:

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Unfortunately, I can't make it. "Dependency Hell" is still with us, and MUST be fixed. For example, if you install the 4 OpenOffice "extra" files for 3.09, I believe it is, and then want to update OO from the openSUSE listed OO site, you end up with a slew of dependency issues, for both 32 and 64-bit systems! This has existed now for over 3 weeks! This is the type of nonsense that WILL and DOES turn off newbies, let alone those of us who are seasoned vets.

What's the point in us testing and providing feedback and making our voices heard if we are ignored? I'm now looking to move on. 10 years of supporting SuSE for this. 11.1 is a broken piece of crap that I don't even want to look at again. If the devs don't give a crap about what we have to say, then I know when I'm not wanted. I pushed for KDE3 to remain in 11.1 only to see if get screwed up if you don't do anything but a standard install. Looks like it's time to quit wasting our time Fred.

'Sure does look that way....UNfortunately.

Fred

-- "The fundamental premise of liberalism is the moral and rational incapacity of the American people." ~ Fred Miller

So, what do you propose? Capitulation to the ones that shout the loudest? Or, fighting for what is right? IMO, SuSE is the closest thing to the best distro available, far from perfect but worth saving. Puppy Linux is great for doing a lot with old, small systems. Ubuntu is ok for newbies but relatively inflexible when compared to SuSE, IMO. Debian is very good but I still prefer SuSE. -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu March 12 2009 3:41:28 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:

Richard Creighton wrote:

...

On Wed March 11 2009 10:41:20 pm Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Larry Stotler wrote: ...

...

What's the point in us testing and providing feedback and making our voices heard if we are ignored? I'm now looking to move on. 10 years of supporting SuSE for this. 11.1 is a broken piece of crap that I don't even want to look at again. If the devs don't give a crap about what we have to say, then I know when I'm not wanted. I pushed for KDE3 to remain in 11.1 only to see if get screwed up if you don't do anything but a standard install. Looks like it's time to quit wasting our time Fred. 'Sure does look that way....UNfortunately.

So, what do you propose? Capitulation to the ones that shout the loudest? Or, fighting for what is right?

Yep.

...

IMO, SuSE is the closest thing to the best distro available, far from perfect but worth saving. Puppy Linux is great for doing a lot with old, small systems.

Not so small/old.

I have an old machine, that currently "runs" SuSE 7.3, with only 32 MiB. This will not run Puppy Linux, or so I read. For example, on the wikipedia:

] When the operating system boots, everything in the Puppy package ] uncompresses into a RAM area, the "ramdisk". The PC needs to have at ] least 128 MB of RAM (with no more than 8 MB shared video) for all of ] Puppy to load into the ramdisk. However, it is possible for it to ] run on a PC with only about 48 MB of RAM because part of the system ] can be kept on the hard drive, or in the worst case, left on the CD. ]

So I can not run the installer. Maybe version 1 of puppy.

...

Ubuntu is ok for newbies but relatively inflexible when compared to SuSE, IMO. Debian is very good but I still prefer SuSE.

And I have been told today that a Bugzilla I reported will not be solved because they consider my machine (P-IV, circa 2001) too old. So, Linux no longer supports old hardware :-(

Carlos, I think you actually make my point.....SuSE is worth saving, it used to work, it is becoming bloated, it is largely becoming bloated because of poor programming practices such as including everything by default in the initial installation and by including libraries that are actually systems that contain too many unrelated subsystems that become incorporated in other libraries that become inturn dependant and therefore contribute to the bloat and inability to support the older/smaller systems. The idea of MODULES in the kernel to support the newer features and abilities of the new hardware and modules with the ability to support the existing/older legacy hardware is being bastardized/usurped by the dependency hell library mess we get by building too many 'default' layers of installed programs and features. One way that might be solved would be to have a minimal installation with a mostly 'naked' system that loads a bare system that utilizes whatever hardware it can detect (eg network, monitor, sound, etc) and then OFFERS a post installation session where the installation can be completed 'as is', 'Business office oriented', 'Multimedia oriented','experimental', ...etc where people can add the stuff like Beagle, Pulse audio (for those that want to experiment), the latest version of Gnome or KDE as opposed to the stable and proven version of 3.5.x or whatever beta/alpha versions the devs would like to push for testing. The idea is that you don't make a release that contains a big glob of defaults that are 'bleeding edge' or untried packages and certainly not packages that replace well tried and stable versions as a default. Such bleeding edge packages should go into the postinstallation session if the user wishes to install them. I liked your idea of any packages that *are* made defaults are made so by incorporating a STUB library AND whatever additional library or libraries needed to support the package. That way, only the stub need be retained in the distro, all others can be removed because all other dependencies go through the stub....kinda like an API. So, SuSE was worth saving....still should be, don't you think? -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

And I have been told today that a Bugzilla I reported will not be solved because they consider my machine (P-IV, circa 2001) too old. So, Linux no longer supports old hardware :-(

Didn't know that. Knew they don't want to support G3's and P3's, which makes no sense because they are good machines if you remove all the crap. And crap removal is the problem. When you have unnecessary dependcies, you can't remove what you need to. I ran SuSE 5.3 on a 32MB RAM system. By 7.3 I had 192 IIRC. I have 8.1 install on a Thinkpad with a Pentium 233 and 96MB and it runs great. Now, you have to have 256 to just install it and 512 to use it reasonably on a stock install. I don't expect low end systems to last forever, but when you remove what you don't need, you can do a lot with a low ram system. I have a server with 128MB, dual P3/500, but it's not running a GUI, so it can get away with less RAM. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 13 March 09, Amedee Van Gasse (amedee.be) wrote:

On Thu, March 12, 2009 01:51, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:51 AM, Fred A. Miller

wrote:

...

Unfortunately, I can't make it. "Dependency Hell" is still with us, and MUST be fixed. For example, if you install the 4 OpenOffice "extra" files for 3.09, I believe it is, and then want to update OO from the openSUSE listed OO site, you end up with a slew of dependency issues, for both 32 and 64-bit systems! This has existed now for over 3 weeks! This is the type of nonsense that WILL and DOES turn off newbies, let alone those of us who are seasoned vets.

What's the point in us testing and providing feedback and making our voices heard if we are ignored? I'm now looking to move on. 10 years of supporting SuSE for this. 11.1 is a broken piece of crap that I don't even want to look at again. If the devs don't give a crap about what we have to say, then I know when I'm not wanted. I pushed for KDE3 to remain in 11.1 only to see if get screwed up if you don't do anything but a standard install. Looks like it's time to quit wasting our time Fred.

Hello, I am new to opensuse. What should I think of this discussion? It's always the same on this list, every week the same kind of discussions over and over.

I think Opensuse is a bad distro. Not because of the software, but because of the mailing list. There are hardly any "technical" topics left, only rants. And now I'm doing it too...

And now I will do what *you* always do... Go away if you don't like it. How's it feel? -- Stupidity should be unbearably painful! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-03-13 at 10:02 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:

Amedee Van Gasse (amedee.be) wrote:

...

I think Opensuse is a bad distro. Not because of the software, but because of the mailing list. There are hardly any "technical" topics left, only rants. And now I'm doing it too...

You know - that's actually an insanely great compliment to the openSUSE team and Novell.

Think about it - were we actually having massive problems, we'd ether be asking about it or not using openSUSE.

ROTFL! X-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkm6xMgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U9RQCfXXRL99u33VKv4Xo3oFJtoNg6 HmIAnAyEcDqgtzE6wXucstzyV+j/UbE5 =r7fN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Amedee Van Gasse (amedee.be) wrote:

Hello, I am new to opensuse. What should I think of this discussion? It's always the same on this list, every week the same  kind of discussions over and over.

Yeah, it does get to be like a broken record around her sometimes.

I think Opensuse is a bad distro. Not because of the software, but because of the mailing list. There are hardly any "technical" topics left, only rants. And now I'm doing it too...

Well, thanx for joining the club! Always good to add a new member.... :-) It's been my stance that the devs seem to forget the people don't make use of these lists and they don't communicate changes to the userbase very well(like the 1 click upgrade for KDE4.2). My question to you is how long have you been using openSUSE? That will help me gauge how long others are using the distro before they try to join the community. And, as always - Good luck! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Frans de Boer wrote: to the wrong mailing lists.

BTW: no single Linux distro is really ready for the average consumer who is used to use Windows only.

I disagree. I have personally seen many people who have moved to Linux with nothing but windows experience and become immediately productive without the need of any hand holding beyond the first hour. DELL (and others) are selling Linux on various machines these days. The integration of linux on my wife's last Dell was phenomenally well done. Everything worked out of the box. Most of the people I have seen switch end up with new machines and some flavor of Ubuntu because thats what's commercially available. No reason it couldn't have been SLED, but Novell didn't appear to want to make much of an effort. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Frans de Boer wrote:

On Fri, 2009-03-13 at 17:11 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

Frans de Boer wrote: to the wrong mailing lists.

...

BTW: no single Linux distro is really ready for the average consumer who is used to use Windows only. I disagree.

So both of us have different experiences.

I was NOT talking about normal productivity, but rather the lack of support for Peripheral devices like USB devices and the like. For example: I have yet to find a proper tool who can really support my Windows Mobile 3 PDA device like ActiveSync can.

Ah, the shifting goal post... Joe Average Consumer does not have a Windows Mobile 3 PDA. (As a matter of fact I don't know anyone else that does). But those who do usually are somewhat more advanced then average. Most average users want Email, Web, IM, Word Processing and probably some multi-media. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

mukul wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

Frans de Boer wrote:

...

On Fri, 2009-03-13 at 17:11 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

Frans de Boer wrote: to the wrong mailing lists.

...

BTW: no single Linux distro is really ready for the average consumer who is used to use Windows only.

I disagree.

So both of us have different experiences.

I was NOT talking about normal productivity, but rather the lack of support for Peripheral devices like USB devices and the like. For example: I have yet to find a proper tool who can really support my Windows Mobile 3 PDA device like ActiveSync can.

Ah, the shifting goal post...

Joe Average Consumer does not have a Windows Mobile 3 PDA. (As a matter of fact I don't know anyone else that does). But those who do usually are somewhat more advanced then average.

Most average users want Email, Web, IM, Word Processing and probably some multi-media.

and multimedia seems to be a problem.

FWIW, I've been on openSUSE for over 10 years - and - will not go back to Windoze. What in multimedia seems to be the problem ? (The only problems I've run into is hardware that is for Windows ONLY - so as such, I've dumped that hardware a long time ago) So here is my list: - KDE - VLC - gramps (genealogy) - k9copy (copy dvd's) - devede (build dvd's) - mandvd (build dvd's) - k3b - Quasar Accounting (for my business) - Postbooks (testing) - Audacity (audio) - musescore (sheet music editor) - LightScribe (etch on cd/dvd) - gftp - gimp - avidemux - digikam - xsane - tvtime - thunderbird - firefox - open office - VirtualBox (Windows XP - tax software) What else does a normal user need ? --- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

On Saturday 14 March 2009 02:24:23 Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

...

- VirtualBox (Windows XP - tax software)

You might look into taxact.com or other internet-based tax software. They generally work well in Firefox. I've been a happy user of taxact.com for 3-4 years. Depending on the level of service you pay for, you may even be able to upload your old records and have them converted to an open format.

I already use taxact however I don't like the web version because you are using their servers to store your private data. -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 02:40 -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

On Saturday 14 March 2009 02:24:23 Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

...

- VirtualBox (Windows XP - tax software)

You might look into taxact.com or other internet-based tax software. They generally work well in Firefox. I've been a happy user of taxact.com for 3-4 years. Depending on the level of service you pay for, you may even be able to upload your old records and have them converted to an open format.

Frankly I would be quite leery of giving anyone else kind of information, no matter what their guarantees are. I've seen too many instances of financial institutions having lost or had their files open to outsiders for my comfort. Curious, for web based tax software, where and how is the info stored? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-03-14 at 22:05 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:

I do ask every year, however, if any of the tax services work in Linux. So far, I've been told, "no."

That is my one of my reasons for keeping a windows partition. Or a virtual windows (vmware). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkm9BoIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V52gCfdJgYFHhF0XlPlHcOjU8u6I9V IOoAn2AKxgMz4zwicmgw6dcB64SLRfhL =nYdm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Steve Jeppesen wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 02:24:23 -0500 Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

...

So here is my list: - KDE - VLC - gramps (genealogy) - k9copy (copy dvd's) - devede (build dvd's) - mandvd (build dvd's) - k3b - Quasar Accounting (for my business) - Postbooks (testing) - Audacity (audio) - musescore (sheet music editor) - LightScribe (etch on cd/dvd) - gftp - gimp - avidemux - digikam - xsane - tvtime - thunderbird - firefox - open office - VirtualBox (Windows XP - tax software)

What else does a normal user need ?

mainstream CAD, ie, Autodesk products. I know there are others, but I am talking specifically Autodesk products.

You must have missed the word "normal" user. Just a quick glance at their website, it appears Linux is a supported platform. -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Steve Jeppesen wrote:

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:31:24 -0500 Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

...

Steve Jeppesen wrote:

...

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 02:24:23 -0500 Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

...

...

...

What else does a normal user need ?

mainstream CAD, ie, Autodesk products. I know there are others, but I am talking specifically Autodesk products.

You must have missed the word "normal" user. Just a quick glance at their website, it appears Linux is a supported platform.

Got me there, would rather be with norml than with normal people.

Wait a minute please: Is someone implying that Autodesk products run on linux? I sometimes run AutoCAD Inventor on Virtual Box/Windows XP, but certainly not directly on linux. There is no indication anywhere on the Autodesk site that I can see implying anything but Windows for Autodesk. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Wait a minute please: Is someone implying that Autodesk products run on linux? I sometimes run AutoCAD Inventor on Virtual Box/Windows XP, but certainly not directly on linux. There is no indication anywhere on the Autodesk site that I can see implying anything but Windows for Autodesk.

Not sure if this is everything you want but here is a link:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/usearch/results?la=en&nh=10&siteID=123112&y=0&col=wacjprd&col=usuppprd&catID=123155&st=1&id=2088334&qt=linux&x=0

They may have some products which run under Linux, but their bread-and-butter is AutoCAD, which only runs on Wintendo. (As it is, the UI is horrendous and I can't imagine anyone wanting to learn it, but that's a different story.) You can export AutoCAD files to a format that programs like QCad can use - http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/SAB031_01_acad2000.dxf - that is an autocad file I exported a few years back while working on a (windows only) facilities management program (Archibus) implementation. -- kai www.perfectreign.com | www.ecmplace.com www.twitter.com/PerfectReign -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday March 15 2009, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote: ...

LinuxCAD now represents a complete computer aided design program for Linux ... it is a complete replacement for AutoCAD. For any practical purpose, it implements all major features of AutoCAD in such a way that experienced AutoCAD users do not need additional training to start working with LinuxCAD

And you're really supposed to mail a $100 check to some guy in Kansas to acquire this software??

-- Duaine Hechler

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Sunday March 15 2009, Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

...

Kai Ponte wrote: ...

LinuxCAD now represents a complete computer aided design program for Linux ... it is a complete replacement for AutoCAD. For any practical purpose, it implements all major features of AutoCAD in such a way that experienced AutoCAD users do not need additional training to start working with LinuxCAD

And you're really supposed to mail a $100 check to some guy in Kansas to acquire this software??

Yeah, that's not exactly a professionally designed site, nor is the business looking like a quality product. Not to say it isn't but just that one can't tell from the site. How about openSUSECAD? :P -- kai www.perfectreign.com | www.ecmplace.com www.twitter.com/PerfectReign -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 22:18 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:

Duaine & Laura Hechler wrote:

...

Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Wait a minute please: Is someone implying that Autodesk products run on linux? I sometimes run AutoCAD Inventor on Virtual Box/Windows XP, but certainly not directly on linux. There is no indication anywhere on the Autodesk site that I can see implying anything but Windows for Autodesk.

Not sure if this is everything you want but here is a link:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/usearch/results?la=en&nh=10&siteID=123112&y=0&col=wacjprd&col=usuppprd&catID=123155&st=1&id=2088334&qt=linux&x=0

They may have some products which run under Linux, but their bread-and-butter is AutoCAD, which only runs on Wintendo. (As it is, the UI is horrendous and I can't imagine anyone wanting to learn it, but that's a different story.)

I thought that they had a UNIX version out, many CAD programs do. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

They do. It is not that someone missed that, it's just decision to have it by default. If it would work properly, it would be great way to listen music delivered from one to any computer on the LAN.

Yeah. KDE4 is THE FUTURE, so let's push it out before it's ready. When I used to instal for Dish Network, I'd get requests for info on becoming a beta tester. I'd tell the customer that they were beta testing. Dish's stuff was solid, but they were always breaking things in the quest to kepp up with the Jones......

It's not against anybody Larry. You are not alone with that feeling, and there was debate on opensuse-project mail list. Everybody is invited to meeting tomorrow: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-03/msg00083.html

I couldn't make the meeting either, but I put some of my concerns on the list. No idea if they were discussed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 11 March 2009 07:48:21 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

You are not alone with that feeling, and there was debate on opensuse-project mail list. Everybody is invited to meeting tomorrow: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-03/msg00083.html

Here was my question:

Is there any way we can fix a lot of the dependency problems I am running into? Like pulseaudio evidently being a requirement for kdebase4 and trying to remove avahi breaking 1/2 the installation. Some of us don't want/need things like beagle(or ANY search), avahi, xine, pulseaudio, amarok, etc. -- Larry Stotler

Well, I got my answer:

<metalgod> of course features like "disable pulseaudio" are unacceptable :)

What a polite way to tell me to f*** off.

His opinion. He's not much different then anybody else. He would like to have more of his toys.

They totally ignored this one:

# Status of getting KPersonalizer or something similar for those of us who don't want/need eye candy?(The biggest reason I don't use KDE4 - takes too long to turn all that crap off) -- Larry Stotler

Well, I thought that meeting was better prepared, but very soon all boiled down to few fixable problems. Besides meeting was too long.

Nice to be a part of the community. Who's Metal God so I can ask him WHY pulseaudio is so frickin important?

It is important for him. The channel is open to anybody that wants to use it. **** On my last installation in VirtualBox pulse audio, beagle, compiz, kde desktop effects, and few other toys were removed without complains, right during installation and VBox run acceptably fast on current machine that is some 1.5 GHz. They are not real dependencies, With a bit of effort you can create your optimal installation, export list of installed software on USB stick, and import after every consecutive installation. YaST will happly remove all that you don't want, and add what you would like to have. I didn't check during installation, but it can be possible. Also, there is something called autoyast. Though, I'm not sure how it works. The guess is, it is for multiple machines with same hardware. Not necessarily identical, but that require same drivers. So, there are solutions, that can make your life easier, while other, that enjoy to have shine, can have it by default. Sincerely, it's always easier to remove something that you know it exist, than to find hidden features. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 12. März 2009 16:34:43 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

Nice to be a part of the community. Who's Metal God so I can ask him WHY pulseaudio is so frickin important?

Removing pulseaudio has been discussed at length on the factory mail list. A vote was proposed.

https://features.opensuse.org/305888 ?! Regards Michael

Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 09 March 2009 05:41:46 pm Mukul Singh wrote:

...

Hi,

Just thought I would let you know my experience of installing Opensuse on my new laptop...

Installed Opensuse 11.1 (x86 32 bit) with KDE 4.1 and then updated to KDE 4.2 Factory via one click install. The fact that KDE 4.1 is not usable is a separate issue in itself.

As my laptop has a NVIDIA 9200 M card, I thought that installing the NVIDIA drivers "easy way", as indicated on opensuse website should be enough. Did that, but no luck. Anyway, I managed to do it via the "hard way". The drivers were installed successfully and things were looking up.

The current problems on my system are :

1. Every time I boot my machine, the sound does not work unless I do alsasound restart.

Hi Mukul,

It might be PulseAudio.

zypper se pulse

Remove all you can see installed except libpulse0 . The kdebase4 depends on it, so simple 'zypper rm pulseaudio' can have unwanted consequence of deinstalling half of KDE.

Removing pulseaudio should be workaround until guys fix some problems between alsa and pulseaudio.

Hi Rajko, Thanks for the suggestion. I did remove everything to do with pulseaudio except libpulse0. I am still getting the same error where mplayer is saying that the audio resource is busy... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- AVI file format detected. [aviheader] Video stream found, -vid 0 [aviheader] Audio stream found, -aid 1 VIDEO: [DX50] 676x278 12bpp 25.000 fps 852.6 kbps (104.1 kbyte/s) Clip info: Software: VirtualDubMod 1.5.10.1 (build 2366/release) ========================================================================== Opening video decoder: [ffmpeg] FFmpeg's libavcodec codec family Selected video codec: [ffodivx] vfm: ffmpeg (FFmpeg MPEG-4) ========================================================================== ========================================================================== Opening audio decoder: [mp3lib] MPEG layer-2, layer-3 AUDIO: 48000 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 128.0 kbit/8.33% (ratio: 16000->192000) Selected audio codec: [mp3] afm: mp3lib (mp3lib MPEG layer-2, layer-3) ========================================================================== [AO OSS] audio_setup: Can't open audio device /dev/dsp: Device or resource busy [AO_ALSA] alsa-lib: conf.c:3009:(snd_config_update_r) Cannot access file /etc/alsa-pulse.conf [AO_ALSA] alsa-lib: pcm.c:2205:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM default [AO_ALSA] Playback open error: No such file or directory [AO ESD] esd_open_sound failed: Connection timed out AO: [pulse] Init failed: Connection refused [JACK] cannot open server [AO SDL] Samplerate: 48000Hz Channels: Stereo Format s16le E: context.c: waitpid(): No child processes [AO SDL] Unable to open audio: No available audio device DVB card number must be between 1 and 4 AO: [null] 48000Hz 2ch s16le (2 bytes per sample) Starting playback... VDec: vo config request - 676 x 278 (preferred colorspace: Planar YV12) -------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

2. Kpowersave does not display the battery status properly. -1% charged is what I get all the time. It also does not recognise whether the system is running on a battery or on mains.

Seems also known problem. I found one bug, but I've seen discussion on that topic somewhere. You can help if you add your experience, including laptop model: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182389

I will add to it.

...

3. The plasma widgets misbehave every now and then, but I can live with that.

A bit more details, please. Not all widgets are of the same quality ie. development status, so being particular in this case is important. Which widget and what it does that you don't expect, or want.

Will provide the details in a day or two. Thanks once again for taking time to help. Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 11 March 2009 08:09:50 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Wednesday, 2009-03-11 at 22:15 +1100, mukul wrote:

...

Thanks for the suggestion. I did remove everything to do with pulseaudio except libpulse0. I am still getting the same error where mplayer is saying that the audio resource is busy...

I'm not familiar with mplayer (I use xine), but perhaps you have to (re)configure mplayer to use alsa instead of pulse.

It seems more like old driver has its hand on device. rcalsarestart or rebooting?

...

[AO OSS] audio_setup: Can't open audio device /dev/dsp: Device or resource busy [AO_ALSA] alsa-lib: conf.c:3009:(snd_config_update_r) Cannot access file /etc/alsa-pulse.conf

It is looking for pulse, it seems :-?

I have everything working after removing pulse audio in 11.1. Though, I turn computer of every night. I'm sure that Kaffeine and vlc player work. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* mukul [03-11-09 15:51]:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

It seems more like old driver has its hand on device. rcalsarestart

That is what I do now. However, it is just annoying.

so take the "annoying" away, include rcalsarestart in /etc/init.d/after.local and it will automagically take away your "annoying". -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mukul Singh wrote:

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* mukul [03-11-09 15:51]:

...

Rajko M. wrote:

...

It seems more like old driver has its hand on device. rcalsarestart

That is what I do now. However, it is just annoying.

so take the "annoying" away, include rcalsarestart in /etc/init.d/after.local

and it will automagically take away your "annoying".

Wish it was that easy. The problem is not putting it in a startup script. The problem is that after I finish playing one avi file in mplayer and try playing another, I still get the same error and no sound (of course).

Further to this, the problems occurring on my system are just one of the many issues faced by the users as is evident from this mailing list. How would you expect someone who he not a 'techo' to get a system up and running? A friend of mine has been asking me install Linux on his laptop, I guess he will have to wait. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mukul Singh wrote:

Mukul Singh wrote:

...

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* mukul [03-11-09 15:51]:

...

Rajko M. wrote:

...

It seems more like old driver has its hand on device. rcalsarestart

That is what I do now. However, it is just annoying.

so take the "annoying" away, include rcalsarestart in /etc/init.d/after.local

and it will automagically take away your "annoying".

Wish it was that easy. The problem is not putting it in a startup script. The problem is that after I finish playing one avi file in mplayer and try playing another, I still get the same error and no sound (of course).

Further to this, the problems occurring on my system are just one of the many issues faced by the users as is evident from this mailing list. How would you expect someone who he not a 'techo' to get a system up and running? A friend of mine has been asking me install Linux on his laptop, I guess he will have to wait.

Just use VLC and be done with it ! -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 11 March 2009 02:50:45 pm mukul wrote: ...

Kaffeine is even more interesting...

It comes up with a popup saying: Loading of player part 'XinePart' failed. All audio drivers failed to initialize.

In the terminal window I get: HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device

It seems that you have bad sectors on a hard disk. Please run as root smartctl -a Paste content from console window to http://pastebin.ca and post link, that pastebin will give you, here. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 12 March 2009 05:19:37 pm David Haller wrote:

Hello,

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Wednesday 11 March 2009 02:50:45 pm mukul wrote:

...

In the terminal window I get: HDIO_GET_DMA failed: Inappropriate ioctl for device

It seems that you have bad sectors on a hard disk.

I don't think so, that's should be just a hdparm or some such on a CD-ROM / DVD-Drive, which naturally does not support that ioctl, as it has no geometry.

You can simpley ignore that message.

I mixed that with other messages, but this still doesn't completely exclude hardware problem. Though, that might be indication where to look for a problem. Something is generating that message when Kaffeine is used. tail -f /var/log/messages and start Kaffeine, should give more information. Besides, running smartctl would not hurt. Mukul is using console anyway. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse (amedee.be) wrote:

On Mon, March 9, 2009 23:41, Mukul Singh wrote:

RE Subject: Opensuse still not ready for consumers...

Opensuse is not ready? Or Linux in general is not ready? Are you pointing the finger at something general Linux, or something Opensuse distro specific?

It could well be that Linux is not ready. For me, linux is Opensuse. If I was trying other distributions then I would be able to know that the sound issue with my laptop is Opensuse distro specific or not.

Sometimes I get the impression that some opensusians think they live on an island...

What do you expect a normal Joe Blow like me to do? Have all the distributions on my laptop and keep trying everything instead of getting on with my life? I think that you need to take a boat and leave that island of yours. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org