Pascal, you've earned my complete respect with your tremendous contribution to the SUSE community, and your reasonable and thoughtful manner. We've communicated via email on a few things over the past couple of years. Things have gotten a bit out of hand, but for the most part, it's fairly clear why. On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 12:57 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:
We've been dragging this thread endlessly since weeks and weeks now, with no decision nor decisive points for the one or the other way.
I would think this is clear proof that there hasn't been presented a clear and compelling justification for creating OpenSUSE forums. Were these reasons evident to all, we'd see a natural and supported action path. Building something because there aren't good reasons _not_ to is an absurd premise, IMO. To build something of value one must have compelling justification _to_ build it.
At least now there is some kind of decision, or proposal thereof.
I'm pretty sure that we'd still be "discussing" the matter in 6 months if we kept on that way.
As a community, we must also understand that everyone can't have it his own way all the time.
There appears to be a decision without the full involvement of much of the existing SUSE web-based forum community, the very part of the SUSE community that will be most impacted by the creation of OpenSUSE forums. While to regular members of this mailing list it may seem like the discussion has gone on forever, I'm new to the dialog. Vir@s stated that some input from suselinuxsupport.de was requested, but not received, before the decision was made. My input was requested by CuCullin (thank you Joseph), and my questions largely ignored, before the decision was made. For me, my disappointment has nothing to do with a decision one way or the other, it's about the process that's been used. If this is a demonstration of the idea of "community" as interpreted by the mailing list, it doesn't bode well for our future as an extended SUSE community.
If there's a decision you don't like, well, that's where you have to show that you're really part of that community as well as your commitment, and keep working for the good of it anyway.
It's a bit like sport: it's easy to support a team that wins all the time. Real, committed supporters keep their faith and commitment to their club even when they loose.
While I'm not saying that we've "lost" anything, I like this analogy to say that even when it's a decision you don't like, please keep committed and help as you can.
This web forum topic is a perfect example of a decision where we can't have it everyone's way. At least I'm pretty sure everyone is aware from the endless discussions we've had on this that there isn't such a way.
I've already demonstrated my commitment to the SUSE community, as has Vir@s. We've spent endless hours (and our money) building web-based communities to fill a need that was not addressed formally by SUSE for a long time. We've each individually helped thousands of SUSE users with problems, and collectively tens of thousands, through the forums we support and help manage. I would hope our dedication to the SUSE community is no less up for reconsideration than yours. We've had our ups and downs...times when we wanted to quit...and faced challenges to our forums that frankly, were far worse than the subject of this dialog. But we stuck with it, and I don't anticipate that changing. At times we've _been_ the problem, but far more often, we've been part of the solution, and we stepped up in a way no one else did at the time. I have no fear of new forums...anyone is welcome to bring up a new forum at any time, for any reason they choose. But let's not pretend the process that's played out in this mailing list represents the best input of the global SUSE community. Despite it's inauspicious beginning, the process can be fixed. But it will take more dialog, not less, and more time, and better communication. The question is, is the creation of OpenSUSE forums more important than the damage a broken decision making process will do to the global SUSE community? Individual decisions made by a good process achieve greater validation and are more likely to succeed than individual decisions made in the manner we've witnessed to date. Let's fix the process, and then move on to using it to make important global SUSE community decisions.
The moderators must come from the community. While, of course, having a few people from SUSE/Novell also spend some time on moderation, they should do that as members of the openSUSE community.
Proven forum moderators _from the community_ must take on that role.
I think it's about time that we stop making this difference between Novell employees and non-Novell employees on every topic. We're all part of the openSUSE community, that's the essential idea about it. While of course on some topics it makes a difference, it doesn't with everything, and in some time it won't do at all.
I absolutely agree...Novell, SUSE, OpenSUSE...in the context of the global SUSE Linux community, these are all important parts of the _same_ whole, although each plays a different role. The comment I received in response to my first post to the mailing list that discounted the majority of my post because I referenced Novell's existing forums is an example of forcing a distinction where none really applies. We should however, clearly define the "benevolent dictator" role...the individuals that carry it, the extent of their power, and the rules by which they govern themselves, and accept or reject ideas. It helps to know whom you must convince, yea or nay, in a decision making process. In sales, one always defines the decision maker, or the sales process will break.
Anyhow, I'm a bit shocked by and sad about all those harsh words.
...the result of a broken process. It will settle down, and we'll get back to the issues at hand. There is a lot of passion here for the global SUSE community...everyone who is active here has shown a willingness to contribute, and is committed to preserving and growing SUSE Linux. When someone of Eberhard's character has extremely strong words to say, there is a message beneath the way it was expressed that is important.
Regardless of the path being chosen for the web forums, the real issue at hand is that we have to build bridges between the existing community parts.
The SUSE Linux community has been existing since years and years, but as there was lacking some central channel that could only come from SUSE/Novell, those community "parts" are rather isolated and don't talk to each other much.
I'm absolutely in agreement. We must establish a method (process) of interaction and communication that preserves the right of each segment of the global SUSE community to an opinion, and establishes a clearly communicated decision process to follow. Otherwise, the next passionate issue that crops up will illustrate the broken process again. As I've said earlier, I believe we should first look at and explore ways to embrace and preserve the existing commitments of the SUSE community before we take action to build something new. If that fails, or if out of that dialog it becomes clear a "new" solution is necessary, then so be it. But it's wrong to proceed without making the attempt.
Let me just pick one example from my own experience to illustrate it: linux-club.de hosts the largest german-speaking web forum about SUSE Linux. While everyone knows I have pretty much the largest package repository for SUSE Linux after Packman, and a lot of people are using my RPMs, I've seen several times that people were talking about issues with a package of mine or a conflict between my packages and e.g. those from Packman. But I never (and I mean *never, ever*) got any mail from anyone (except once from oc2pus) telling me like "hey, seems there's some issue with your amarok package on the forum, could you please have a look ?"
You and I have communicated on that type of issue. ;) And I was seriously impressed at your willingness to respond quickly and assist in any way you could. You are a fine example of what is best about our global SUSE community.
That's the real issue we have to address. That's what we have to work on. (not specifically about my RPMs, I mean communication in general ;))
Let's all get closer together, let's talk to each other, let's find common communication media.
Don't forget that the pieces of our puzzle are slowly moving towards each other, with things being put into place slowly but surely. We have to push those pieces so they connect as soon as possible. And the connectors are not fixed, they are *people*. It's us. You, me, everyone involved. So we can make all the parts of the puzzle connect to each other nicely, because it's just a matter of us taking the right shape (please exclude any sexual analogy ;)).
If we don't do precisely this, we will all have reason to reflect on our lost opportunity. Let's define the problems the community faces, and then come up with community supported action plans, rather than come up with an action plan, and try to figure out which problems support it.
Also, Keith, Vir@s, and other people from existing web forums who are on this list: please do *not* feel offended by the direction that is being taken at the moment. You are also invaluable to the community, and we all need you, your experience and your endless work and commitment.
As I implied earlier, I am offended by the broken process, not the decisions well-intended members of the community are trying to make.
We're all putting a lot of brain, heart and sleepless nights into this collective work so let's please play nice to each other.
If we don't, the global SUSE community will never reach it's potential. Keith -- Keith Kastorff kastorff@yahoo.com