Hi, On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Viras wrote:

Am Sonntag, 26. Februar 2006 23:58 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:

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On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Wolfgang Koller wrote:

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As maybe some of you I was at the FOSDEM too. I hade the pleasure to meet the openSUSE staff and can just say that they are at least as friendly as they are over IRC :). But now enough of the honey, here are some conclusions to the things I heard at the FOSDEM:

.) Forums: The never ending story. At the FOSDEM it was announced that there will be an official forum (I hope I can say that here, but as you said it in public at the FOSDEM I assume it is ready to be heard by anyone).

Did "they"? Who did it? The future official full-time moderators, or some of our childs which still have to learn thinking by walking and falling onto the nose?

Well they said that they of course want the community to be part of it. Actually I'm glad that there is finally a decision, and we will see how it works out. It is more important that we all work together on bringing our communities closer together than arguing about who has the best community or who hasn't.

Let's see what "officially" will get stated here. Unfortunately I can't find the audio recordings of the FOSDEM sessions yet, and I guess the openSUSE team members which were at FOSDEM will need more than one night to get rid of the bad consequences of drinking belgian so-called beer.

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Although I'm not too happy with that decision I can somehow understand it, at least it will bring the discussion to a rest (and IMO there wouldn't have been a solution everyone is happy with anyway). The only thing I do not really like is that you told us to host a discussion at our board (suselinuxsupport.de) but then suddenly decided that there will be web-forums - next time maybe tell us straight-forward what is planned :). Anyway that's it from me on topic forums.

I was not involved in such a decision, and I have always tried to clearly state that it would not be in my sense. We will find out what it is in essence once the core team members have cured theitr belgian-so-called-beer ease, and if it proofs to be a coup of a minority, each single member of this minority has to take the burdon he has voted for. If they fail (I'm sure they will), the future role of the existing forums will gain more importance within openSUSE.

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I bet this was a lonely coup of some of our fellows who think that they are 100% able to configure a forum software. Maybe we should really throw them into the cold water they have filled in - if they have.

I don't think it was like an easy decision for them, during the talks with them I had the feeling that it wasn't that easy for them either. I mean I see their point that they want something like a more close web-community, but on the other hand I see the point that they can't "bless" one community to be the official one. And of course I also see the point that no existing community want to give up their work.

Let's see what these ominous deciders are worth if their bodies get exposed to the real world to fulfill themselves what they have voted for. I bet they won't even stand their own picture. Belgian beer is an evil drug, you know.

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.) Houghi's XML-Yast repository idea: Unfortunately you weren't there today in the evening when I wanted to talk with you. I think this is actually a great idea, and even though the openSUSE staff is a bit worried about legal issues I think this could be easily done using a YaST module (yes I heard the YaST module tutorial too :)). I think the best way to make this easy to distribute is to let a community member do it and then just include it. The argument that it might be abused for including repositories with illegal content is nonsene IMO - just because it CAN be abused it isn't illegal, because else you wouldn't be able to include webbrowser too, since those can be used for downloading illegal software too :). For those who weren't there at the FOSDEM and have no clue what I'm talking about - don't worry houghi will setup a wiki page soon :).

One should not expose his kitchen knifes to the children, but keep the children out of the kitchen. ;-))

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.) Build-Service: I think the build service is definately a great idea . I was really impressed by what it can do so far - but yet there is more to come :). For me as a software developer this will definately help to provide more up to date RPMs for various distributions. Here is my only comment: keep up the great work and gimme an account to start producing RPMs :).

As I understand it, it will be only a build service, not a hosting service. Hosting happens at ftp.gwdg.de currently, and that shall continue and grow.

I see - well then I will just constantly bother you for hosting my packages :).

Come on, let's start tonight. ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/suser-viras/ http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/suser-viras/ rsync://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/misc/suser-viras/ is created; just give me an rsync access to fill it. ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 00:55 +0100, houghi wrote:

However there is at this moment no real arguement against having the forums. That can still change.

I'm still waiting for really good reasons _to_ have OpenSUSE forums. I'm not against it, as some people incorrectly assume given my current role in the SUSE community, or at this moment a proponent of it, but I think we should have better justification and a more complete definition of purpose and scope before proceeding. Keith -- Keith Kastorff kastorff@yahoo.com

On 2/27/06, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

They do not have horses, they just want to ride them. So let's watch them fall onto their noses.

Are you using reverse psychology? Saying that they will fail, so that they will be more determined to succeed? :-) Let me just say that I am always wary of people who say that their way is the right one and that all others are wrong. Even more so, 'doomsayers', that say all other ways are doomed. Although maybe I have just misunderstood all your translated proverbs...:-) Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin.

Hi, Sorry, Peter Flodin has prepared his mail so that pine does fail to distinguish quotes and new sentences. As heat has grown, I insist in right quoting: On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Peter Flodin wrote:

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On 2/27/06, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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They do not have horses, they just want to ride them. So let's watch them fall onto their noses.

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Are you using reverse psychology? Saying that they will fail, so that they will be more determined to succeed? :-)

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Let me just say that I am always wary of people who say that their way is the right one and that all others are wrong. Even more so, 'doomsayers', that say all other ways are doomed.

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Although maybe I have just misunderstood all your translated proverbs...:-)

I am really upset about the message "at FOSDEM, the openSUSE team declared to create a new official web forum".

I can't believe it to be true, so I can't really find a target for my gun.

So I currently can only argue "straight forward" in my line without knowing the path of my opposites.

If you can give some guidance, please do. If you can't, shut your dirty mouth.

This is really annoying: who of you would have concluded our discussion as "yes, we need a new official openSUSE forum"? Noone. So it is an at least surprising - but in fact: annoying - act. No discusssion. BAD. WORSE.

Maybe we really should take a vote, to find back to the existing reality. Because the virtual reality we are confronted with will not stand the next rain shower, I guess.

Peter, you seem to have an opinion which is opposite to mine. Please, give a standalone statement here - because "shooting against" is not enough to help the others to understand in this situation.

And I can state you: I am upset about your answer. So please hurry to clear your position and tell it here.

Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

On Sunday 26 February 2006 21:16, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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Sorry, Peter Flodin has prepared his mail so that pine does fail to distinguish quotes and new sentences. As heat has grown, I insist in right quoting:

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Peter Flodin wrote:

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On 2/27/06, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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They do not have horses, they just want to ride them. So let's watch them fall onto their noses.

Are you using reverse psychology? Saying that they will fail, so that they will be more determined to succeed? :-)

Let me just say that I am always wary of people who say that their way is the right one and that all others are wrong. Even more so, 'doomsayers', that say all other ways are doomed. Although maybe I have just misunderstood all your translated

...

proverbs...:-)

I am really upset about the message "at FOSDEM, the openSUSE team declared to create a new official web forum".

I can't believe it to be true, so I can't really find a target for my gun.

So I currently can only argue "straight forward" in my line without knowing the path of my opposites.

If you can give some guidance, please do. If you can't, shut your dirty mouth.

This is really annoying: who of you would have concluded our discussion as "yes, we need a new official openSUSE forum"? Noone. So it is an at least surprising - but in fact: annoying - act. No discusssion. BAD. WORSE.

Maybe we really should take a vote, to find back to the existing reality. Because the virtual reality we are confronted with will not stand the next rain shower, I guess.

Peter, you seem to have an opinion which is opposite to mine. Please, give a standalone statement here - because "shooting against" is not enough to help the others to understand in this situation.

And I can state you: I am upset about your answer. So please hurry to clear your position and tell it here.

Wow. I just got home, and see all this being fired back and forth.

I think everyone is aware that I support the idea of an official forum, and probably why - however, I'm not going into that now because its already been said.

Eberhard, I think you need to calm yourself.

Good idea. But what I am seeing here...

As both Keith and Viras see, with proper justification (and I'm not saying there is, though I believe so) its a worthwhile element to be added. Considering Keith and Viras, both of the two major forums out there are open to the discussion, I'm shocked that you, Eberhard, have lashed out and taken things out of proportion so quickly.

It must have been a very much "central" decision, at least not meeting the democracy principles here. Who did ever speak for it here? Only some of our well-tolerated long-speaking childs, but noone who had qualifyed as a potential moderator. No moderator, no forum. Anyone here who did not understand this yet? Sign up, but hurry. But I guess even more worse: there are some people pushing the idea of the "official" forum which are not able to maintain it.

houghi has already stated that the decision was only about the techncial ability should the decision be made to go ahead.

Let's hope it is "only" that. But you know what the pure politicians are able to do.

How about we hold off, give the people who just went to FOSDEM a break, and get the full summary tomorrow (or whenever it is the audio and summaries come up).

Yes, I give them 24 hours due to the known bad influences of so-called belgian beer. But that does not influence my position, only their answer. An official statement which is in contrast to the community counting is a destroying action, not only a disharmonic one. So take out your guns and shoot at any movement you see, if it is true that the openSUSE team has decided against the community. If it is not true, let's wait 24 hours until they got rid of the bad consequences of drinking so-called belgian beer. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

On Sunday 26 February 2006 22:50, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

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On Sunday 26 February 2006 21:16, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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Sorry, Peter Flodin has prepared his mail so that pine does fail to distinguish quotes and new sentences.

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As heat has grown, I insist in right quoting:

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Peter Flodin wrote:

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On 2/27/06, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote: > They do not have horses, they just want to ride them. > So let's watch them fall onto their noses.

Are you using reverse psychology? Saying that they will fail, so that they will be more determined to succeed? :-)

Let me just say that I am always wary of people who say that their way is the right one and that all others are wrong. Even more so, 'doomsayers', that say all other ways are doomed.

Although maybe I have just misunderstood all your translated

proverbs...:-)

I am really upset about the message "at FOSDEM, the openSUSE team declared to create a new official web forum".

I can't believe it to be true, so I can't really find a target for my gun.

So I currently can only argue "straight forward" in my line without knowing the path of my opposites.

If you can give some guidance, please do. If you can't, shut your dirty mouth.

This is really annoying: who of you would have concluded our discussion as "yes, we need a new official openSUSE forum"? Noone. So it is an at least surprising - but in fact: annoying - act. No discusssion. BAD. WORSE.

Maybe we really should take a vote, to find back to the existing reality. Because the virtual reality we are confronted with will not stand the next rain shower, I guess.

Peter, you seem to have an opinion which is opposite to mine. Please, give a standalone statement here - because "shooting against" is not enough to help the others to understand in this situation.

And I can state you: I am upset about your answer. So please hurry to clear your position and tell it here.

Wow. I just got home, and see all this being fired back and forth.

I think everyone is aware that I support the idea of an official forum, and probably why - however, I'm not going into that now because its already been said.

Eberhard, I think you need to calm yourself.

Good idea. But what I am seeing here...

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As both Keith and Viras see, with proper justification (and I'm not saying there is, though I believe so) its a worthwhile element to be added. Considering Keith and Viras, both of the two major forums out there are open to the discussion, I'm shocked that you, Eberhard, have lashed out and taken things out of proportion so quickly.

It must have been a very much "central" decision, at least not meeting the democracy principles here. Who did ever speak for it here? Only some of our well-tolerated long-speaking childs, but noone who had qualifyed as a potential moderator. No moderator, no forum. Anyone here who did not understand this yet? Sign up, but hurry.

Who says who is a good mod and who is not? What makes you think you know any better than anyone else? What makes *you* think anything based on an UNOFFICIAL SUMMARY.

Surely, it is not impossible that a child gets a good forum moderator once. Maybe even the step from child to moderator may happen instantly, but are you even dreaming of it, knowing our "pro" individuals? But don't you have enough human experience to accord, or do you think your human experience should enforce you to withdraw here?

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But I guess even more worse: there are some people pushing the idea of the "official" forum which are not able to maintain it.

And you know that they are not able to maintain it, even though *it isn't an issue yet*?

No; I just suspect they are too stupid/unconcious to fulfill the task. I use these hard words in hope to wake them up in time; if it does not work, we will see some prominent opensuse community members (yes, exactlty those...) divert into eternal darkness... Not any task, but a task the openSUSE community (even stronger: the openSUSE core team) has to stand for if announced.

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houghi has already stated that the decision was only about the techncial ability should the decision be made to go ahead.

Let's hope it is "only" that. But you know what the pure politicians are able to do.

What? What are they able to do?

Force any plan, regardless of the community meaning.

You've been doing nothing but tossing aimless blame and loathsome remarks, but I have yet to see a single point from you tonight.

Right; I need an "official" response first before I will shoot my magazine. Please understand that I need a more relevant statement than the bad guy houghi was able to give.

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How about we hold off, give the people who just went to FOSDEM a break, and get the full summary tomorrow (or whenever it is the audio and summaries come up).

Yes, I give them 24 hours due to the known bad influences of so-called belgian beer. But that does not influence my position, only their answer.

An official statement which is in contrast to the community counting is a destroying action, not only a disharmonic one. So take out your guns and shoot at any movement you see, if it is true that the openSUSE team has decided against the community. If it is not true, let's wait 24 hours until they got rid of the bad consequences of drinking so-called belgian beer.

How have they "decided against the community"? As I said, Keith and Viras are open to the discussion and the idea, and regardless, will continue to work towards the improvement of SUSE, no matter what the outcome. So how in the hell is anything against the community?

In my opinion, such a decision did not reflect the discussion at the opensuse mailing list. And you can be sure: it is not only "my opinion" which does not meet. So it is a higher-level thingy: are there some individuals manipulating our conciousness? Hey, if you are such a bad individual, show up here. I want to shoot at you, and get a point for it. if you are not, please convince us that you do not want to destroy the upcoming openSUSE community before it destroys itself.

Seriously, I'm sick of the completely pointless posts, the harassing comments, and the altogether useless remarks - and it took less than an hour. I'm done with this aspect of the thread for now.

Don't forget we have to build the tomorrow, or the tomorrow will build us. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi. On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

On Monday 27 February 2006 00:04, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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So it is a higher-level thingy: are there some individuals manipulating our conciousness? Hey, if you are such a bad individual, show up here. I want to shoot at you, and get a point for it.

What in the hell are you talking about?

Have you read anything at all?

Apparently, the ONLY decision that was made was to be prepared - if a decision is made, they are going to be prepared to fulfill. Considering... and I'm sorry to everyone, but I need to try and get this across...

NO DECISION HAS BEEN MADE AS TO THE EXISTENCE OF AN OFFICIAL FORUM.

IF THERE WERE, AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE.

Read that as many times as it takes for you to get it already. You're making this gigantic, ridiculous, and to be flat out honest, completely fucking stupid argument AGAINST NOTHING!

Go to bed and get some rest, have a drink, have a smoke - whatever the hell it takes, I hope tomorrow you're somewhere near normal again.

Ok. I will enter the bed now and seek the rest; but I will be back tomorrow looking for the one I have to shoot. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 03:08:49AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

I am really upset about the message "at FOSDEM, the openSUSE team declared to create a new official web forum".

As I understood it, they are creating a forum in a technical way, so that launchdate is not to far away from the aproval date.

I can't believe it to be true, so I can't really find a target for my gun.

The OP.

This is really annoying: who of you would have concluded our discussion as "yes, we need a new official openSUSE forum"? Noone. So it is an at least surprising - but in fact: annoying - act. No discusssion. BAD. WORSE.

I did.

And I can state you: I am upset about your answer. So please hurry to clear your position and tell it here.

It seems that today you are angry about a lot of things. Twice naming Belgian beer in anegative way. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 03:50:42AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

If you say "yes" for a new "official" openSUSE web forum, you have to qualify as a potential moderator first.

Why? I realy do not understand your negative atitude here. Please try to have a adult conversation. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 04:12:36AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

But with this answer, you have stated that you are an unconcious child only, so shut up now to help the grown-ups to find a common sense.

I womder why you now also suddenly decide to use namecalling. I thought better of you. Pitty. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Am Montag, 27. Februar 2006 05:02 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:

Hi,

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, houghi wrote:

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On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 04:12:36AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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But with this answer, you have stated that you are an unconcious child only, so shut up now to help the grown-ups to find a common sense.

I womder why you now also suddenly decide to use namecalling. I thought better of you. Pitty.

You better come back to the theme.

I am really upset by these (I assume "your") undemocratical activities, and regardless if you are the bad guy or not, I will shoot all my magazines against the enemy. So declare your position, or I will void munition. But be aware: my power will not end before yours.

Cheers -e

Sounds like somebody has been playing too much Counter Strike lately :-( Take a deep breath and think about what you are writing, not much of it is making sense at the moment. You are flying off the handle at everyone and calling them childish, yet it is you who unfortunately come over as the child. If you keep jumping down peoples throats when they try and write a reply, we are just going to degenerate the thread into name-calling flames and any clarification will probably disappear under a couple of hundred tons of flames :-( If you can't produce civil reply when you read an answer, go take a walk or do something else until you have calmed down and can think rationally. Dave -- "I got to go figure," the tenant said. "We all got to figure. There's some way to stop this. It's not like lightning or earthquakes. We've got a bad thing made by men, and by God that's something we can change." - The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck

Marcus Meissner wrote:

Novell is the "benevolent dictator" according to this lecture.

of course, if not we could not be here anyway :-) but we need to accord ourselves :-) see other thread jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Am Montag, 27. Februar 2006 14:34 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:

Hi,

On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, David Wright wrote:

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Am Montag, 27. Februar 2006 05:02 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:

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On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, houghi wrote:

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On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 04:12:36AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

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But with this answer, you have stated that you are an unconcious child only, so shut up now to help the grown-ups to find a common sense.

I womder why you now also suddenly decide to use namecalling. I thought better of you. Pitty.

You better come back to the theme.

I am really upset by these (I assume "your") undemocratical activities, and regardless if you are the bad guy or not, I will shoot all my magazines against the enemy. So declare your position, or I will void munition. But be aware: my power will not end before yours.

Cheers -e

Sounds like somebody has been playing too much Counter Strike lately :-(

Take a deep breath and think about what you are writing, not much of it is making sense at the moment. You are flying off the handle at everyone and calling them childish, yet it is you who unfortunately come over as the child.

If you keep jumping down peoples throats when they try and write a reply, we are just going to degenerate the thread into name-calling flames and any clarification will probably disappear under a couple of hundred tons of flames :-(

If you can't produce civil reply when you read an answer, go take a walk or do something else until you have calmed down and can think rationally.

How can one "decide" to create a forum whilst saying at the same moment "I will not play the part of a moderator"...

In this manner, I could decide you do my job. But I earn the money. And you should not protest please, because we are an openSOMETHING community, and we had an open discussion before my decision...

<schuttlet Kopf> Have you read what I wrote? I hadn't even got into your flaming or trolling, just asking you to calm down and be civil... And have you actually read what the others have written? So far it looks like they are doing a "proof of concept" of setting up a forum, which won't be opened, just "tested" to make sure the forum functionality works... Just in case the decision is finally agreed upon, so that it can then be rolled out without delay. Nobody has said that the community is going to open the forum now, without agreement. Dave -- "I got to go figure," the tenant said. "We all got to figure. There's some way to stop this. It's not like lightning or earthquakes. We've got a bad thing made by men, and by God that's something we can change." - The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck

On Feb 27, 06 01:55:22 +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

When will the audio cuts be online, and where?

Wow. In all that mess, I spotted a question that I could answer. The tapes made it to Nuernberg. Looks like more than 10 hours of material. I'll set up the encoders tonight. I cannot estimate yet how fast it goes in. ttyl, cheers, Jw. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8

Hi, On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

On Sun, Feb 26, 2006 at 11:58:13PM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Did "they"? Who did it? The future official full-time moderators, or some of our childs which still have to learn thinking by walking and falling onto the nose?

I'm not sure into which category you'd put me ;-) - but: I did. See the recording of the talk from me and Michael Loeffler once it's through post-production (which will take a few days).

This is the first official statement. So please tell us which amount of budget is included in your decision to hire good forum moderators. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Viras wrote:

Well I think they just wanted a decision - maybe they made it a bit to quick but I can somehow understand it. As I said I'm not too happy with it either but we will see how it works out. The openSUSE staff is really nice and actually cares about what we have to say, but at some point there had to be a decision made. We will see how it works :).

_IF_ it works. If it works. It is not a matter of decision, but a matter of making. And as I have followed the discussion here, I see no moderator quality amongst the pro voters yet. Maybe a consequence is: Novell/SUSE has to hire (and pay!) some good moderators from the existing forums now - lacking their own. This I would call a positive side effect of a negative decision, and it could some up the whole thing as positive. ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Pascal, you've earned my complete respect with your tremendous contribution to the SUSE community, and your reasonable and thoughtful manner. We've communicated via email on a few things over the past couple of years. Things have gotten a bit out of hand, but for the most part, it's fairly clear why. On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 12:57 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:

We've been dragging this thread endlessly since weeks and weeks now, with no decision nor decisive points for the one or the other way.

I would think this is clear proof that there hasn't been presented a clear and compelling justification for creating OpenSUSE forums. Were these reasons evident to all, we'd see a natural and supported action path. Building something because there aren't good reasons _not_ to is an absurd premise, IMO. To build something of value one must have compelling justification _to_ build it.

At least now there is some kind of decision, or proposal thereof.

I'm pretty sure that we'd still be "discussing" the matter in 6 months if we kept on that way.

As a community, we must also understand that everyone can't have it his own way all the time.

There appears to be a decision without the full involvement of much of the existing SUSE web-based forum community, the very part of the SUSE community that will be most impacted by the creation of OpenSUSE forums. While to regular members of this mailing list it may seem like the discussion has gone on forever, I'm new to the dialog. Vir@s stated that some input from suselinuxsupport.de was requested, but not received, before the decision was made. My input was requested by CuCullin (thank you Joseph), and my questions largely ignored, before the decision was made. For me, my disappointment has nothing to do with a decision one way or the other, it's about the process that's been used. If this is a demonstration of the idea of "community" as interpreted by the mailing list, it doesn't bode well for our future as an extended SUSE community.

If there's a decision you don't like, well, that's where you have to show that you're really part of that community as well as your commitment, and keep working for the good of it anyway.

It's a bit like sport: it's easy to support a team that wins all the time. Real, committed supporters keep their faith and commitment to their club even when they loose.

While I'm not saying that we've "lost" anything, I like this analogy to say that even when it's a decision you don't like, please keep committed and help as you can.

This web forum topic is a perfect example of a decision where we can't have it everyone's way. At least I'm pretty sure everyone is aware from the endless discussions we've had on this that there isn't such a way.

I've already demonstrated my commitment to the SUSE community, as has Vir@s. We've spent endless hours (and our money) building web-based communities to fill a need that was not addressed formally by SUSE for a long time. We've each individually helped thousands of SUSE users with problems, and collectively tens of thousands, through the forums we support and help manage. I would hope our dedication to the SUSE community is no less up for reconsideration than yours. We've had our ups and downs...times when we wanted to quit...and faced challenges to our forums that frankly, were far worse than the subject of this dialog. But we stuck with it, and I don't anticipate that changing. At times we've _been_ the problem, but far more often, we've been part of the solution, and we stepped up in a way no one else did at the time. I have no fear of new forums...anyone is welcome to bring up a new forum at any time, for any reason they choose. But let's not pretend the process that's played out in this mailing list represents the best input of the global SUSE community. Despite it's inauspicious beginning, the process can be fixed. But it will take more dialog, not less, and more time, and better communication. The question is, is the creation of OpenSUSE forums more important than the damage a broken decision making process will do to the global SUSE community? Individual decisions made by a good process achieve greater validation and are more likely to succeed than individual decisions made in the manner we've witnessed to date. Let's fix the process, and then move on to using it to make important global SUSE community decisions.

The moderators must come from the community. While, of course, having a few people from SUSE/Novell also spend some time on moderation, they should do that as members of the openSUSE community.

Proven forum moderators _from the community_ must take on that role.

I think it's about time that we stop making this difference between Novell employees and non-Novell employees on every topic. We're all part of the openSUSE community, that's the essential idea about it. While of course on some topics it makes a difference, it doesn't with everything, and in some time it won't do at all.

I absolutely agree...Novell, SUSE, OpenSUSE...in the context of the global SUSE Linux community, these are all important parts of the _same_ whole, although each plays a different role. The comment I received in response to my first post to the mailing list that discounted the majority of my post because I referenced Novell's existing forums is an example of forcing a distinction where none really applies. We should however, clearly define the "benevolent dictator" role...the individuals that carry it, the extent of their power, and the rules by which they govern themselves, and accept or reject ideas. It helps to know whom you must convince, yea or nay, in a decision making process. In sales, one always defines the decision maker, or the sales process will break.

Anyhow, I'm a bit shocked by and sad about all those harsh words.

...the result of a broken process. It will settle down, and we'll get back to the issues at hand. There is a lot of passion here for the global SUSE community...everyone who is active here has shown a willingness to contribute, and is committed to preserving and growing SUSE Linux. When someone of Eberhard's character has extremely strong words to say, there is a message beneath the way it was expressed that is important.

Regardless of the path being chosen for the web forums, the real issue at hand is that we have to build bridges between the existing community parts.

The SUSE Linux community has been existing since years and years, but as there was lacking some central channel that could only come from SUSE/Novell, those community "parts" are rather isolated and don't talk to each other much.

I'm absolutely in agreement. We must establish a method (process) of interaction and communication that preserves the right of each segment of the global SUSE community to an opinion, and establishes a clearly communicated decision process to follow. Otherwise, the next passionate issue that crops up will illustrate the broken process again. As I've said earlier, I believe we should first look at and explore ways to embrace and preserve the existing commitments of the SUSE community before we take action to build something new. If that fails, or if out of that dialog it becomes clear a "new" solution is necessary, then so be it. But it's wrong to proceed without making the attempt.

Let me just pick one example from my own experience to illustrate it: linux-club.de hosts the largest german-speaking web forum about SUSE Linux. While everyone knows I have pretty much the largest package repository for SUSE Linux after Packman, and a lot of people are using my RPMs, I've seen several times that people were talking about issues with a package of mine or a conflict between my packages and e.g. those from Packman. But I never (and I mean *never, ever*) got any mail from anyone (except once from oc2pus) telling me like "hey, seems there's some issue with your amarok package on the forum, could you please have a look ?"

You and I have communicated on that type of issue. ;) And I was seriously impressed at your willingness to respond quickly and assist in any way you could. You are a fine example of what is best about our global SUSE community.

That's the real issue we have to address. That's what we have to work on. (not specifically about my RPMs, I mean communication in general ;))

Let's all get closer together, let's talk to each other, let's find common communication media.

Don't forget that the pieces of our puzzle are slowly moving towards each other, with things being put into place slowly but surely. We have to push those pieces so they connect as soon as possible. And the connectors are not fixed, they are *people*. It's us. You, me, everyone involved. So we can make all the parts of the puzzle connect to each other nicely, because it's just a matter of us taking the right shape (please exclude any sexual analogy ;)).

If we don't do precisely this, we will all have reason to reflect on our lost opportunity. Let's define the problems the community faces, and then come up with community supported action plans, rather than come up with an action plan, and try to figure out which problems support it.

Also, Keith, Vir@s, and other people from existing web forums who are on this list: please do *not* feel offended by the direction that is being taken at the moment. You are also invaluable to the community, and we all need you, your experience and your endless work and commitment.

As I implied earlier, I am offended by the broken process, not the decisions well-intended members of the community are trying to make.

We're all putting a lot of brain, heart and sleepless nights into this collective work so let's please play nice to each other.

If we don't, the global SUSE community will never reach it's potential. Keith -- Keith Kastorff kastorff@yahoo.com

Keith Kastorff wrote:

We should however, clearly define the "benevolent dictator" role...the individuals that carry it, the extent of their power, and the rules by which they govern themselves, and accept or reject ideas. It helps to know whom you must convince, yea or nay, in a decision making process. In sales, one always defines the decision maker, or the sales process will break.

sorry to cut off your very intersting post, but this part seems essential. let us wait to know what was said on this subject at FOSDEM by Sonja A matter of fact often denied here is that Novell folks are _not_ at the same place as are the other members of the community. * they have advantages: to know who is who and where are the true decision paths, to have the admin rights to create. They are the right hand of the Dictator :-) * they have disadvantages: if ever one of them make an error in his writing or posting, he may be fired :-( (hope this wont happen!), they must obey they boss... they are somewhere between the tree and the bark... * thay have also similar place, when working over week end and out of usual desk hours (thanks to them) So they have a place, a great place in the community, an essential place :-) but they can't say as any of us: is I don't like this I can leave... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Hi, On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Keith Kastorff wrote:

On Sun, 2006-02-26 at 23:20 +0100, Wolfgang Koller wrote:

...

.) Forums: The never ending story. At the FOSDEM it was announced that there will be an official forum (I hope I can say that here, but as you said it in public at the FOSDEM I assume it is ready to be heard by anyone). Although I'm not too happy with that decision I can somehow understand it, at least it will bring the discussion to a rest (and IMO there wouldn't have been a solution everyone is happy with anyway). The only thing I do not really like is that you told us to host a discussion at our board (suselinuxsupport.de) but then suddenly decided that there will be web-forums - next time maybe tell us straight-forward what is planned :). Anyway that's it from me on topic forums.

So in the end, our input wasn't really wanted. It was mentioned as being needed over and over, but in the aftermath of a decision, it's clear this wasn't sincere. The truth is there was an opportunity to strengthen the community that was lost.

Wait. If there was such a decision, the deciders have to proof their qualification next. We had a wide discussion here, and in no way was the general conclusion to create a new official openSUSE forum now. So if that got stated at FOSDEM, the staters have to proof their competence next. Not in configuring a forum software, but in guiding a forum community. My guess is: if the deciders manage it to be good forum moderators, we will get one more forum with new members (I guess no current forum member will leave his "community" just because there seems to come up something new). If it proofs that the deciders are not able to do the job they just have voted for, we have two consequences: 1. it shows that the current forums have to gain a higher acceptance within the openSUSE project. 2. it shows that the current openSUSE steering was influenced too much by some childs who themselves should search for assistance in real-word orientation in future. Maybe the existing forums can help in this case. ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, houghi wrote:

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 12:40:45AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Wait. If there was such a decision, the deciders have to proof their qualification next. <snip>

And people thought I was kidding when I said this subject will go on forever. :-(

I did not. I know that one always has to watch and guide the kids as long as they are kids, so I knew you were not kidding thinking of kids. ;-)) Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 12:19 +0100, Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

In such a situation somebody has to decide for something, and it is impossible to make everybody happy.

Agreed. However, in the absence of a clearly defined process that ensures the participation of those most impacted, _who_ one makes unhappy can be significant. If I were the decision maker, I'd personally have had a dialog with those most impacted, and made sure they were aware a decision was pending. It's being a good community citizen/leader, IMO. It's another sign of a broken process... Keith -- Keith Kastorff kastorff@yahoo.com

Am Montag, 27. Februar 2006 00:49 schrieb houghi:

On Sun, Feb 26, 2006 at 11:20:56PM +0100, Wolfgang Koller wrote:

...

.) Forums: The never ending story. At the FOSDEM it was announced that there will be an official forum (I hope I can say that here, but as you said it in public at the FOSDEM I assume it is ready to be heard by anyone).

No. I asked for clarification during the presentation and it was clearly stated that this was the technical stuff. What they are gfoing to do is to start TECHNICAL implementation so that _*/IF/*_ (Enough enphasis?) theres is a yes, then it won't take another 6 months or so to launch it. A very reasonable thought when you have worked in a larger orgaisation. Imagine how e would react if there would be an OK in say june on what and how, e.g. only talks about opnSUSE and no technical support.

Sorry but that's not correct, I had some private talks with them and there it was cleary stated for me that they are going to do a forum UNLESS there are some really good reasons to NOT do it.

Then the the anouncement, OK, we will have it done by october. Not a good way to do things.

...

.) Houghi's XML-Yast repository idea: Unfortunately you weren't there today in the evening when I wanted to talk with you.

Sorry, I had to do some other thing and planned on coming back for at least the Q&A, but did not make it. :-(

Don't worry, there will be a next time :).

<snip>

...

I think the best way to make this easy to distribute is to let a community member do it and then just include it.

There is a lot of overlapping stuff going on with YaST, the mirroring and the buld server, so most likely an implementation will be made already on a YaST level.

Well that's what I'm talking about anyway - by simply writing a YaST module you could easily add it to yast :). Mfg, Wolfi

<snip fill ACK>

houghi

-- Nothing than Linux counts http://wiki.suselinuxsupport.de/ http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/

Well my point was, if we create a own YaST module that is provided by the community (so not SuSE / Novell itself) they would avoid any legal conflicts they may fear. But if you have other plans, it's your baby :) Mfg, Wolfi Am Montag, 27. Februar 2006 10:13 schrieb houghi:

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 08:46:32AM +0100, Viras wrote:

...

Sorry but that's not correct, I had some private talks with them and there it was cleary stated for me that they are going to do a forum UNLESS there are some really good reasons to NOT do it.

For me that means that the decision is not yet final.

...

...

There is a lot of overlapping stuff going on with YaST, the mirroring and the buld server, so most likely an implementation will be made already on a YaST level.

Well that's what I'm talking about anyway - by simply writing a YaST module you could easily add it to yast :).

Uhm. As I see it, no need to write a YaST module, because it might be implemented in an existing one (that will exist at THAT moment).

I will start writing the promised pages now.

houghi

-- Nothing than Linux counts http://wiki.suselinuxsupport.de/ http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/

houghi schrieb:

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 05:18:57PM +0100, Viras wrote:

...

Well my point was, if we create a own YaST module that is provided by the community (so not SuSE / Novell itself) they would avoid any legal conflicts they may fear.

This is just about making an XML file. The content of this XML file can be legal or illegal, not the layout itself. So a XML with e.g. official mirrors and repositories (e.g. NVidea or the build server) can be placed on openSUSE.

Whatever I place in an XML file on my site or what you place on your site is not up to the legal department of Novell.

The question is, if they may link to a page or not. So, what Viras wanted to say (I hope I got him right) is to introduce a level which is not illegal per se (and can be linked therefore). As I don't know what you presented at FOSDEM, I'm puzzled, what functions your XML method will add to yast. Ciao Siegbert