Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (3729 mails)
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Re: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)
- From: James Mohr <suse_mailing_list@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 21:37:17 +0200
- Message-id: <200306042137.17060.suse_mailing_list@xxxxxxxxx>
On Tuesday 03 June 2003 22:13, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:
> * Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@xxxxxxxxxxx:
<snip>
> > I see, so a salesman or doctor "out in the field" with a linux laptop
> > dosn't need to know what to do if there is a boot failure?
> > C'mon , they at least have to know how to fix a system so it
> > can boot to the command line. It's one of the most common
> > questions on this list, and one that is easy to learn.
>
> Well no, I don't expect an end-user to do these things. Both professions
> have way more important things to do than screw around with /etc/inittab
> or bootfloppie while they're doing their business.
> And luckely for them Linux isn't a system that 'just' fails for no
> apparent reason. So they won't have to worry about such a thing because
> that's one of the reasons they use Linux right?
In any beginning level course, I would generally have to agree with you.
Although a certain amount of troubleshooting is necessary, what is necessary
to fix the system when booting from a floppy is probably beyond most
beginners.
<snip>
> > What happens when the user can't get dns resolving? He at least needs
> > to know about /etc/resolv.conf.
>
> Not with SuSE.. well.. most of the time at least. But DNS isn't reserved
> to Unix/Linux, people with other OSs have to put this info in place too.
Again, you are being unrealistic. Most Windows users will download a
provider-specifc package that does all of the work for them. They simply
click on an icon and the applications takes care of everything. The odds are
they don't even need DNS as "everything" (email and surfing) is handled
through that single application. On the other hand, these kinds of apps do
not yet exist in the Linux world. Therefore, they probably at least need to
know what DNS is. There are many sites that will tell you want scripts to
change to get the DNS and routing configured correctly, but unless you are
looking for them, you won't find them with the standard distributions.
>
> > It is not that difficult to teach the basic fundamentals in an "intuitive
> > way", so at least the end user can figure out what is basically going
> > on. Take a few notes, if this isn't working, check this file for this or
> > that.
>
> If it's not that difficult then why is the subject 'Linux' the most
> written about on the net according to Google?
IMHO because up to know most people have written about Linux in "jargon" that
only Linux people would understand. However, as more people get into Linux,
they correct that problem by writting in the vernacular.
Yes, you can teach people in an intuive way so that they can understand what
pushing a particular button or starting a particular script does. That's what
my site attempts to do.
> > The way you describe users, all they are good for is "clicking on picture
> > icons" and responding to input requests. In my book that's a kiosk.
>
> Then you misunderstand me, I want to make it clear that learning Linux
> isn't something you do in a 3 day event, or a fortnight at home, or even
> a year of just using it like you would Windows.
> If you want to use a Unix system to its full potential then it would
> probably take a fulltime sysadmin job for a couple of years to know all
> the ins and outs.
> IOW; learn to crawl before you start to run.
Granted but that's not the point of classes like this. Rather than making them
study on their own for a year, you give the the foundation to complete that
same training within a couple of months.
> > A linux user should be aware of the files on the harddrive, and realize
> > that they can be manipulated either from the command line or from a gui,
> > so the gui becomes a tool , and not a "magic genie".
>
> Use the tool best suited for a job, sometimes pointing is easier, most
> of the time in my experience a shell is more versatile.
I agree with that 100% In fact, that is one of my most favorite arguments in
favor on Linux against Windows. You have a choice with Linux, with Windows
you don't. However, if someone chooses to use the GUI, then I feel it
necessary to teach them what goes on behind the scenes.
Regards,
jimmo
--
---------------------------------------
"Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your
character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others
think you are." -- John Wooden
---------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info
---------------------------------------
NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing
lists or forums are subject to reposting.
> * Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@xxxxxxxxxxx:
<snip>
> > I see, so a salesman or doctor "out in the field" with a linux laptop
> > dosn't need to know what to do if there is a boot failure?
> > C'mon , they at least have to know how to fix a system so it
> > can boot to the command line. It's one of the most common
> > questions on this list, and one that is easy to learn.
>
> Well no, I don't expect an end-user to do these things. Both professions
> have way more important things to do than screw around with /etc/inittab
> or bootfloppie while they're doing their business.
> And luckely for them Linux isn't a system that 'just' fails for no
> apparent reason. So they won't have to worry about such a thing because
> that's one of the reasons they use Linux right?
In any beginning level course, I would generally have to agree with you.
Although a certain amount of troubleshooting is necessary, what is necessary
to fix the system when booting from a floppy is probably beyond most
beginners.
<snip>
> > What happens when the user can't get dns resolving? He at least needs
> > to know about /etc/resolv.conf.
>
> Not with SuSE.. well.. most of the time at least. But DNS isn't reserved
> to Unix/Linux, people with other OSs have to put this info in place too.
Again, you are being unrealistic. Most Windows users will download a
provider-specifc package that does all of the work for them. They simply
click on an icon and the applications takes care of everything. The odds are
they don't even need DNS as "everything" (email and surfing) is handled
through that single application. On the other hand, these kinds of apps do
not yet exist in the Linux world. Therefore, they probably at least need to
know what DNS is. There are many sites that will tell you want scripts to
change to get the DNS and routing configured correctly, but unless you are
looking for them, you won't find them with the standard distributions.
>
> > It is not that difficult to teach the basic fundamentals in an "intuitive
> > way", so at least the end user can figure out what is basically going
> > on. Take a few notes, if this isn't working, check this file for this or
> > that.
>
> If it's not that difficult then why is the subject 'Linux' the most
> written about on the net according to Google?
IMHO because up to know most people have written about Linux in "jargon" that
only Linux people would understand. However, as more people get into Linux,
they correct that problem by writting in the vernacular.
Yes, you can teach people in an intuive way so that they can understand what
pushing a particular button or starting a particular script does. That's what
my site attempts to do.
> > The way you describe users, all they are good for is "clicking on picture
> > icons" and responding to input requests. In my book that's a kiosk.
>
> Then you misunderstand me, I want to make it clear that learning Linux
> isn't something you do in a 3 day event, or a fortnight at home, or even
> a year of just using it like you would Windows.
> If you want to use a Unix system to its full potential then it would
> probably take a fulltime sysadmin job for a couple of years to know all
> the ins and outs.
> IOW; learn to crawl before you start to run.
Granted but that's not the point of classes like this. Rather than making them
study on their own for a year, you give the the foundation to complete that
same training within a couple of months.
> > A linux user should be aware of the files on the harddrive, and realize
> > that they can be manipulated either from the command line or from a gui,
> > so the gui becomes a tool , and not a "magic genie".
>
> Use the tool best suited for a job, sometimes pointing is easier, most
> of the time in my experience a shell is more versatile.
I agree with that 100% In fact, that is one of my most favorite arguments in
favor on Linux against Windows. You have a choice with Linux, with Windows
you don't. However, if someone chooses to use the GUI, then I feel it
necessary to teach them what goes on behind the scenes.
Regards,
jimmo
--
---------------------------------------
"Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your
character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others
think you are." -- John Wooden
---------------------------------------
Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info
---------------------------------------
NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing
lists or forums are subject to reposting.
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