I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

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Re: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux...

James Mohr

30 May 2003 30 May '03

10:26

Hi All! It is a nice coincidence that we have a headline "Indian president in favor of Linux". I have been approached by a training company in India to help develop course work for introductory Linux course (eventually advanced topics). In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are moving up from Windows to Linux. That is, they have some basic computer knowledge (at least what is necessary to run Windows), so they need Linux-specifica. There are the obvious things like differences in commands/options, dual booting, SAMBA, and so forth. However, I would really appreaciate some brain storming ideas on what I could/should include. My partner tells me that India is pretty much "Microsoft country" and there are no companies that provide Linux training. This would be a great oppotunity to show IT people the power of Linux. Any help would be greatly appreaciated. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing lists or forums are subject to reposting.

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Theo v. Werkhoven

1 Jun 1 Jun

19:20

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

* Fri, 30 May 2003, suse_mailing_list@jimmo.com:

...

Hi All!

It is a nice coincidence that we have a headline "Indian president in favor of Linux". I have been approached by a training company in India to help develop course work for introductory Linux course (eventually advanced topics). In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are moving up from Windows to Linux. That is, they have some basic computer knowledge (at least what is necessary to run Windows), so they need Linux-specifica.

There are the obvious things like differences in commands/options, dual booting, SAMBA, and so forth. However, I would really appreaciate some brain storming ideas on what I could/should include. My partner tells me that India is pretty much "Microsoft country" and there are no companies that provide Linux training. This would be a great oppotunity to show IT people the power of Linux.

Any help would be greatly appreaciated.

- single-tree file system vs trees on drives; mount & umount - difference between a real multi-user OS vs one with "multi-user" bolted on; simultaneous logins, su, sudo, remote login. - file-permission; on directory and files, umask - /dev notion; block, character, special - X vs Explorer; windowmanager, desktopmanager - Online help (man, /usr/share/doc, KDE help center etc) - notion about security; root & lusers, why so many system users - scripting; (ba)sh, awk, sed, python - textfile editting: vi/emacs/joe/... - notion about processes and memory management as seen with ps or top - some basic network notion: ifconfig/route/ip - notion about kernel versions, distro versions, OSS licenses Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 27N , 4 29 45E. SuSE 8.2 x86 Kernel k_Athlon 2.4.20-4GB See headers for PGP/GPG info.

zentara

20:44

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:20:47 +0200 "Theo v. Werkhoven" wrote:

...

* Fri, 30 May 2003, suse_mailing_list@jimmo.com:

...
Hi All! It is a nice coincidence that we have a headline "Indian president in favor of Linux". I have been approached by a training company in India to help develop course work for introductory Linux course (eventually advanced topics). In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are

Any help would be greatly appreaciated.

- single-tree file system vs trees on drives; mount & umount - difference between a real multi-user OS vs one with "multi-user" bolted on; simultaneous logins, su, sudo, remote login. - file-permission; on directory and files, umask - /dev notion; block, character, special - X vs Explorer; windowmanager, desktopmanager - Online help (man, /usr/share/doc, KDE help center etc) - notion about security; root & lusers, why so many system users - scripting; (ba)sh, awk, sed, python - textfile editting: vi/emacs/joe/... - notion about processes and memory management as seen with ps or top - some basic network notion: ifconfig/route/ip - notion about kernel versions, distro versions, OSS licenses

Theo

I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers --show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation --show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install --show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling --introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they advance. -- use Perl; #powerful programmable prestidigitation

John LeMay

21:22

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

...

I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers --show them how to use mc --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation --show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install --show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling --introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories

This sounds like an ideal "first steps" course. You could really stretch this to a full week - well, four days at least, of actual classroom training. The only thing I would add would be to include using bzip2/bunzip2 for backups. Since current Gnu versions (at least) of tar include the "j" option as well as the "z" option, this just makes sense. -- John LeMay KC2KTH Senior Enterprise Consultant NJMC | http://www.njmc.com | Phone 732-557-4848 Specializing in Microsoft and Unix based solutions

Theo v. Werkhoven

22:24

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...

On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:20:47 +0200 "Theo v. Werkhoven" wrote:

...
* Fri, 30 May 2003, suse_mailing_list@jimmo.com:

...
Hi All! It is a nice coincidence that we have a headline "Indian president in favor of Linux". I have been approached by a training company in India to help develop course work for introductory Linux course (eventually advanced topics). In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are

Any help would be greatly appreaciated.

- single-tree file system vs trees on drives; mount & umount - difference between a real multi-user OS vs one with "multi-user" bolted on; simultaneous logins, su, sudo, remote login. - file-permission; on directory and files, umask - /dev notion; block, character, special - X vs Explorer; windowmanager, desktopmanager - Online help (man, /usr/share/doc, KDE help center etc) - notion about security; root & lusers, why so many system users - scripting; (ba)sh, awk, sed, python - textfile editting: vi/emacs/joe/... - notion about processes and memory management as seen with ps or top - some basic network notion: ifconfig/route/ip - notion about kernel versions, distro versions, OSS licenses

Theo

I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers

I was under the impression that the Linux boxes would be supplies pre-installed. A user with basic Windows usage skills isn't required to know howto install Windows either, and few would know howto for that matter.

...

--show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation

No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

...

--show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install

Same comment as above.

...

--show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling

Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

...

--introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories

Backup in a network environment isn't something you leave up to a luser, you do that on the server with all the NFS mounts etc.

...

Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they advance.

You want ordinary desktop (office) users to start questions on mailinglists and usenet when they have a problem? Get real please, without a inhouse helpdesk and like I said a sysadmin they don't stand a chance to bring this to a successful outcome. I thought this was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment, you seem to want to teach them administrator skills right away. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 27N , 4 29 45E. SuSE 8.2 x86 Kernel k_Athlon 2.4.20-4GB See headers for PGP/GPG info.

Pagan

22:50

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

I would suggest two courses. 1) Basic "end user" course. Covering the needed day-to-day tasks. 2) Admininstration course. Covering system maint / upgrade / backups. Yes, an end user NEEDS to know how to compile from sources. I'd suggest you do this with an emphasis on PER USER compiles. The second day my Son deived into Linux he's asking me to help him compile an MP3-encoder from sources... See my point? More complex tasks (lib upgrades, compiler upgrades, daemon changes) can be left for administration course. I realize ya probably don't want to have 2 courses, but I feel this is the best way. Some of us users are also the admin, others are lucky enough to have friends that help them with those chores. Just my $0.02 Pagan On Sunday 01 June 2003 17:24, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:

...

* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...
On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:20:47 +0200

"Theo v. Werkhoven" wrote:

...
* Fri, 30 May 2003, suse_mailing_list@jimmo.com:

...
Hi All! It is a nice coincidence that we have a headline "Indian president in favor of Linux". I have been approached by a training company in India to help develop course work for introductory Linux course (eventually advanced topics). In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are

Any help would be greatly appreaciated.

- single-tree file system vs trees on drives; mount & umount - difference between a real multi-user OS vs one with "multi-user" bolted on; simultaneous logins, su, sudo, remote login. - file-permission; on directory and files, umask - /dev notion; block, character, special - X vs Explorer; windowmanager, desktopmanager - Online help (man, /usr/share/doc, KDE help center etc) - notion about security; root & lusers, why so many system users - scripting; (ba)sh, awk, sed, python - textfile editting: vi/emacs/joe/... - notion about processes and memory management as seen with ps or top - some basic network notion: ifconfig/route/ip - notion about kernel versions, distro versions, OSS licenses

Theo

I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers

I was under the impression that the Linux boxes would be supplies pre-installed. A user with basic Windows usage skills isn't required to know howto install Windows either, and few would know howto for that matter.

...
--show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation

No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

...
--show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install

Same comment as above.

...
--show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling

Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

...
--introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories

Backup in a network environment isn't something you leave up to a luser, you do that on the server with all the NFS mounts etc.

...
Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they advance.

You want ordinary desktop (office) users to start questions on mailinglists and usenet when they have a problem? Get real please, without a inhouse helpdesk and like I said a sysadmin they don't stand a chance to bring this to a successful outcome.

I thought this was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment, you seem to want to teach them administrator skills right away.

Theo

-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Harold AKA Pagan pagan@nordaki.net http://www.nordaki.net/~pagan (L)ICQ Number: 171264067 Distro: SuSE Linux Professional Registered Linux User:216397 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+jaC29EKgVX3zIJ4RAruoAJ4y5n3hDQvllEJUSnz1TjQE3hiSowCffBCD 5qAiHHITN6Vt79bX+T2zHyA= =xP18 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

zentara

2 Jun 2 Jun

00:24

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:24:37 +0200 "Theo v. Werkhoven" wrote:

...

* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...

...
I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers

I was under the impression that the Linux boxes would be supplies pre-installed. A user with basic Windows usage skills isn't required to know howto install Windows either, and few would know howto for that matter.

I was under the impression that they wanted to train people to use linux. To be successful, they need to be able to take it home,use it on their personal systems, and hopefully show their friends and neighbors.

...

...
--show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation

No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

I see, so a salesman or doctor "out in the field" with a linux laptop dosn't need to know what to do if there is a boot failure? C'mon , they at least have to know how to fix a system so it can boot to the command line. It's one of the most common questions on this list, and one that is easy to learn. Also, one of the most frequent questions I hear new converts from Windows ask is: "Where is autoexec.bat"?

...

...
--show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install

Same comment as above.

I don't agree. One of the most frequently seen questions is "I saw this great new app, but the rpm won't work, how do I compile it?"

...

...
--show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling

Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

......more of same...... Well I think the real benefit of linux, is empowering the user to know what is going on, and give them some control over it. Otherwise, they might as well stick with windows and let "someone else" hold their hand. What happens when the user can't get dns resolving? He at least needs to know about /etc/resolv.conf. It is not that difficult to teach the basic fundamentals in an "intuitive way", so at least the end user can figure out what is basically going on. Take a few notes, if this isn't working, check this file for this or that. The way you describe users, all they are good for is "clicking on picture icons" and responding to input requests. In my book that's a kiosk. A linux user should be aware of the files on the harddrive, and realize that they can be manipulated either from the command line or from a gui, so the gui becomes a tool , and not a "magic genie". -- use Perl; #powerful programmable prestidigitation

Jerry Feldman

12:02

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

Interesting. I have a meeting with the adult education coordinator at Newton, Ma, US. Newton is a suburb of Boston with a population of about 80,000, and is the Newton after which the Fig Newton was named. He wants to put together two courses based on Linux (and he is a SuSE 8.2 user so I did not have to talk him out of Red Hat :-). The meeting is to discuss the content of the two courses. One will be a generic course on what is an OS, leading to alternatives to Windows, specifically Linux. The other course will be more of a howto use Linux with an emphasis on things like Open Office. I'll be looking at this thread in detail before my meeting tomorrow. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

Togan Muftuoglu

13:51

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

* Jerry Feldman; on 02 Jun, 2003 wrote:

...

The meeting is to discuss the content of the two courses. One will be a generic course on what is an OS, leading to alternatives to Windows, specifically Linux. The other course will be more of a howto use Linux with an emphasis on things like Open Office.

Creative borrowing can be a good option :-) http://www.suse.de/en/business/services/training/susetrain/sl_box/user.html This can give you a good start in considering what to include. I would also suggest to use the phrase "programme" instead of "course" as with courses there are traditionally exams while AFAIK nobody likes to be examined -:) ( You can still provide quizzes/exams whatever to measure the learning) As a side note considering a participant manual to follow the programme content will enable the participants to control their learning pace while enabling the educator to refer to as an educational tool. -- Togan Muftuoglu Unofficial SuSE FAQ Maintainer http://dinamizm.ath.cx

Theo v. Werkhoven

3 Jun 3 Jun

20:13

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...

On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 00:24:37 +0200 "Theo v. Werkhoven" wrote:

...
* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...

...
No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

I see, so a salesman or doctor "out in the field" with a linux laptop dosn't need to know what to do if there is a boot failure? C'mon , they at least have to know how to fix a system so it can boot to the command line. It's one of the most common questions on this list, and one that is easy to learn.

Well no, I don't expect an end-user to do these things. Both professions have way more important things to do than screw around with /etc/inittab or bootfloppie while they're doing their business. And luckely for them Linux isn't a system that 'just' fails for no apparent reason. So they won't have to worry about such a thing because that's one of the reasons they use Linux right?

...

Also, one of the most frequent questions I hear new converts from Windows ask is: "Where is autoexec.bat"?

You're joking right? autoexec.bat isn't in use anymore since NT, if these users want to compare Win9x with Linux than they should first join us in the 21st century before they try to learn a new game.

...

...
...
--show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install

Same comment as above.

I don't agree. One of the most frequently seen questions is "I saw this great new app, but the rpm won't work, how do I compile it?"

And when you tell them to read the INSTALL file they...?

...

...
...
--show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling

Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

......more of same......

Well I think the real benefit of linux, is empowering the user to know what is going on, and give them some control over it. Otherwise, they might as well stick with windows and let "someone else" hold their hand.

That is why I and you use it, yes, but there are lots of others with completely different motives, like security (just to use it as firewall/gateway), having problems with other licence schemes or maybe just because it's what they get in the office (happens you know).

...

What happens when the user can't get dns resolving? He at least needs to know about /etc/resolv.conf.

Not with SuSE.. well.. most of the time at least. But DNS isn't reserved to Unix/Linux, people with other OSs have to put this info in place too.

...

It is not that difficult to teach the basic fundamentals in an "intuitive way", so at least the end user can figure out what is basically going on. Take a few notes, if this isn't working, check this file for this or that.

If it's not that difficult then why is the subject 'Linux' the most written about on the net according to Google?

...

The way you describe users, all they are good for is "clicking on picture icons" and responding to input requests. In my book that's a kiosk.

Then you misunderstand me, I want to make it clear that learning Linux isn't something you do in a 3 day event, or a fortnight at home, or even a year of just using it like you would Windows. If you want to use a Unix system to its full potential then it would probably take a fulltime sysadmin job for a couple of years to know all the ins and outs. IOW; learn to crawl before you start to run.

...

A linux user should be aware of the files on the harddrive, and realize that they can be manipulated either from the command line or from a gui, so the gui becomes a tool , and not a "magic genie".

Use the tool best suited for a job, sometimes pointing is easier, most of the time in my experience a shell is more versatile. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 27N , 4 29 45E. SuSE 8.2 x86 Kernel k_Athlon 2.4.20-4GB See headers for PGP/GPG info.

zentara

21:08

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:13:56 +0200 "Theo v. Werkhoven" wrote:

...

* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...

...
I see, so a salesman or doctor "out in the field" with a linux laptop dosn't need to know what to do if there is a boot failure?

...

Well no, I don't expect an end-user to do these things. Both professions have way more important things to do than screw around with /etc/inittab or bootfloppie while they're doing their business. And luckely for them Linux isn't a system that 'just' fails for no apparent reason. So they won't have to worry about such a thing because that's one of the reasons they use Linux right?

Well linux isn't quite foolproof yet........... How many times have you seen people ask how to boot their system, because the hard drive won't boot because some init script, or module load is hanging? It has happened at least once to almost everyone. So you need to know how to adjust bios settings for a floppy or cdrom boot, and start a rescue session. Of course, I've seen windows users in the same situation call their OEM's tech support, and some part-time student doing tech support tells them to reinstall from the OEM cdrom. :-) I don't think it will go over well, if you train people to use linux, then tell them, if you have a problem, leave it with the sysadmin for a few days and he'll fix it.

...

...
Also, one of the most frequent questions I hear new converts from Windows ask is: "Where is autoexec.bat"?

You're joking right? autoexec.bat isn't in use anymore since NT, if these users want to compare Win9x with Linux than they should first join us in the 21st century before they try to learn a new game.

No, I'm not joking. The last versions of windows I have bought are w95 and wME. They both have autoexec.bat. The people contemplating switching to linux , often come from these older versions. Alot of them jump ship because of the nasty new windows EULA. I'll never buy a newer version of windows. boot.local is part of the 21st century. Many times I've seen advice, "just put that line in boot.local". I have a few in their myself.

...

...
...
...
--show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install

Same comment as above.

I don't agree. One of the most frequently seen questions is "I saw this great new app, but the rpm won't work, how do I compile it?"

And when you tell them to read the INSTALL file they...?

Well that was my point. When someone first encounters a compiler, they need someone to show them a couple of times, just so they over being intimidated by it. Most programmers already know what a Makefile is, what a.out is, and what strip is. But someone new to linux, needs about a half hour of explaning how the whole shebang works, not to make them an expert, but so they are not intimidated to try it on their own; and that it won't break their machine. Making a cake is the same way. An 8 year old who watched his mother make 10 cakes, will jump in and do it himself. While a full-grown adult, with no kitchen experience, will balk at following the clear instructions on the box. Maybe they never heard of pre-heating, or whatever. A little on-the-job-instruction goes a long long way. Well, I've said enough on this. :-) It's really good that we are even discussing the possibility of the nation of India choosing linux as a standard. How they all get "linux-savvy" is out of our control. Maybe a "Computer Peace Corps ? " Have them travel around to villages holding "install fests", and giving away old copies of linux. Maybe even old pentium systems. (It would be a nice way of keeping them out of our overfilled dumps.) Probably 1 or 2 kids from each village would have the apptitude for it, and become unofficial sysadmins for everyone else. Alot of villages are being setup this way, a couple of computers which everyone shares. Linux is perfect for that. And it's within the budgets of people who make less than $2000 per year. Finally, just because someone dosn't have modern Western schooling, dosn't mean they are dumb. Quite often the opposite is true. -- use Perl; #powerful programmable prestidigitation

Theo v. Werkhoven

5 Jun 5 Jun

20:57

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

* Tue, 03 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...

On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 22:13:56 +0200 "Theo v. Werkhoven" wrote:

...
* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...
...
I see, so a salesman or doctor "out in the field" with a linux laptop dosn't need to know what to do if there is a boot failure?

...
Well no, I don't expect an end-user to do these things. Both professions have way more important things to do than screw around with /etc/inittab or bootfloppie while they're doing their business. And luckely for them Linux isn't a system that 'just' fails for no apparent reason. So they won't have to worry about such a thing because that's one of the reasons they use Linux right?

Well linux isn't quite foolproof yet........... How many times have you seen people ask how to boot their system, because the hard drive won't boot because some init script, or module load is hanging? It has happened at least once

After they've been screwing around in /etc ? Plenty of times. Have I seen a boot fail out of the blue ? Not for the last 3-4 years, and then only because of hardware failure (disk errors) or my own stupidity. Do I see a doctor or salesperson hacking in /etc ? Not really. Do I see a doctor or salesperson solve hardware problems somewhere on the road? Not really.

...

to almost everyone. So you need to know how to adjust bios settings for a floppy or cdrom boot, and start a rescue session.

Nice to know how, but a HP or IBM laptop with Linux installed is as failsafe as it gets, and I can't imagine an appliance user to ever need these tools.

...

Of course, I've seen windows users in the same situation call their OEM's tech support, and some part-time student doing tech support tells them to reinstall from the OEM cdrom. :-)

Which is al you can do if that's all you get with the PC. Not 'bad' advice, just very unsatisfying.

...

I don't think it will go over well, if you train people to use linux, then tell them, if you have a problem, leave it with the sysadmin for a few days and he'll fix it.

Desktop systems which are also used as servers probably have a different audience then appliance PCs like laptops. It's not unreasonable to expect more knowledge from these users and for them to solve most of their own problems.

...

...
...
Also, one of the most frequent questions I hear new converts from Windows ask is: "Where is autoexec.bat"?

You're joking right? autoexec.bat isn't in use anymore since NT, if these users want to compare Win9x with Linux than they should first join us in the 21st century before they try to learn a new game.

No, I'm not joking. The last versions of windows I have bought are w95 and wME. They both have autoexec.bat. The people contemplating switching to linux , often come from these older versions. Alot of them jump ship because of the nasty new windows EULA. I'll never buy a newer version of windows.

boot.local is part of the 21st century. Many times I've seen advice, "just put that line in boot.local". I have a few in their myself.

So do I, but the question about autoexec.bat comes from a misunderstanding of Linux and the boot-process in general. boot.local can't be very well compared with au*.bat imho, because boot.local is executed after the kernel is already running while au*.bat is executed before one of these DOS shells and its kernel runs.

...

...
...
I don't agree. One of the most frequently seen questions is "I saw this great new app, but the rpm won't work, how do I compile it?"

And when you tell them to read the INSTALL file they...?

Well that was my point. When someone first encounters a compiler, they need someone to show them a couple of times, just so they over being intimidated by it. Most programmers already know what a Makefile is, what a.out is, and what strip is. But someone new to linux, needs about a half hour of explaning how the whole shebang works, not to make them an expert, but so they are not intimidated to try it on their own; and that it won't break their machine.

Don't say that too loud, making your own glibc and installing it can break a system pretty hard, and there have also been some backdoors in sources of programs, which only hits people that always make their own. Still, following the INSTALL and READMEs usually produces good result, so I'm still puzzled why so many people seem to have problems with tarballs. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 27N , 4 29 45E. SuSE 8.2 x86 Kernel k_Athlon 2.4.20-4GB See headers for PGP/GPG info.

James Mohr

4 Jun 4 Jun

19:37

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Tuesday 03 June 2003 22:13, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:

...

* Sun, 01 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net: <snip>

...
I see, so a salesman or doctor "out in the field" with a linux laptop dosn't need to know what to do if there is a boot failure? C'mon , they at least have to know how to fix a system so it can boot to the command line. It's one of the most common questions on this list, and one that is easy to learn.

Well no, I don't expect an end-user to do these things. Both professions have way more important things to do than screw around with /etc/inittab or bootfloppie while they're doing their business. And luckely for them Linux isn't a system that 'just' fails for no apparent reason. So they won't have to worry about such a thing because that's one of the reasons they use Linux right?

In any beginning level course, I would generally have to agree with you. Although a certain amount of troubleshooting is necessary, what is necessary to fix the system when booting from a floppy is probably beyond most beginners. <snip>

...

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What happens when the user can't get dns resolving? He at least needs to know about /etc/resolv.conf.

Not with SuSE.. well.. most of the time at least. But DNS isn't reserved to Unix/Linux, people with other OSs have to put this info in place too.

Again, you are being unrealistic. Most Windows users will download a provider-specifc package that does all of the work for them. They simply click on an icon and the applications takes care of everything. The odds are they don't even need DNS as "everything" (email and surfing) is handled through that single application. On the other hand, these kinds of apps do not yet exist in the Linux world. Therefore, they probably at least need to know what DNS is. There are many sites that will tell you want scripts to change to get the DNS and routing configured correctly, but unless you are looking for them, you won't find them with the standard distributions.

...

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It is not that difficult to teach the basic fundamentals in an "intuitive way", so at least the end user can figure out what is basically going on. Take a few notes, if this isn't working, check this file for this or that.

If it's not that difficult then why is the subject 'Linux' the most written about on the net according to Google?

IMHO because up to know most people have written about Linux in "jargon" that only Linux people would understand. However, as more people get into Linux, they correct that problem by writting in the vernacular. Yes, you can teach people in an intuive way so that they can understand what pushing a particular button or starting a particular script does. That's what my site attempts to do.

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The way you describe users, all they are good for is "clicking on picture icons" and responding to input requests. In my book that's a kiosk.

Then you misunderstand me, I want to make it clear that learning Linux isn't something you do in a 3 day event, or a fortnight at home, or even a year of just using it like you would Windows. If you want to use a Unix system to its full potential then it would probably take a fulltime sysadmin job for a couple of years to know all the ins and outs. IOW; learn to crawl before you start to run.

Granted but that's not the point of classes like this. Rather than making them study on their own for a year, you give the the foundation to complete that same training within a couple of months.

...

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A linux user should be aware of the files on the harddrive, and realize that they can be manipulated either from the command line or from a gui, so the gui becomes a tool , and not a "magic genie".

Use the tool best suited for a job, sometimes pointing is easier, most of the time in my experience a shell is more versatile.

I agree with that 100% In fact, that is one of my most favorite arguments in favor on Linux against Windows. You have a choice with Linux, with Windows you don't. However, if someone chooses to use the GUI, then I feel it necessary to teach them what goes on behind the scenes. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing lists or forums are subject to reposting.

James Mohr

3 Jun 3 Jun

12:52

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Monday 02 June 2003 00:24, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:

...

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I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers

I was under the impression that the Linux boxes would be supplies pre-installed. A user with basic Windows usage skills isn't required to know howto install Windows either, and few would know howto for that matter.

At this point it is not clear, but I think you are both right. If the audience is a "standard" user then installation would probably be too much. However, if this a course for either advanced users or people who want to be, then installation ought to be inclidesed.

...

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--show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation

No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

Again depends on the audience. I tend to believe (at least hope) that people **wanting** to learn Linux will be receptive to more info. However, those that are *required* need to be "protected" a little.

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--show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install

Same comment as above.

I might have to agree with Pagan on this one. It is both an advantage and disadvantage that Linux software can run on so many platforms. The disadvantage is that you don't always have a binary version and if you want the program you will have to compile it. However, I could imagine that this is part of "supplemental information" that is provided with the course material and not presented in class.

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--show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling

Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

Here too we have a problem with Linux itself. In contrast to Windows, you don't always have the plug-n-play internet connections. Despite my experience, I got extremely frustrated getting my DSL connection working because drivers weren't included, there was no GUI or even a setup script and the documentation to set it up was spread across several web sites. Thank goodness for the SuSE mailing lists. So, just how do they connect to the intenet without this knowledge? On the other hand, if the audience is "standard" users, you are correct that it beyond them.

...

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--introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories

Backup in a network environment isn't something you leave up to a luser, you do that on the server with all the NFS mounts etc.

You making an assumption there that these are students who are being required by their company management to take a Linux course and that there is a IT department supporting them. All I said was "In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are moving up from Windows to Linux. " This *could* be people in a company, but it could be a home user who does not have a personal IT department.

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Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they advance.

You want ordinary desktop (office) users to start questions on mailinglists and usenet when they have a problem? Get real please, without a inhouse helpdesk and like I said a sysadmin they don't stand a chance to bring this to a successful outcome.

Maybe I am interpreting you wrong, but that is a very elitist attitude and does the exact **opposite** of what we are trying to accomplish. I see if frequently that a big complaint against Linux is the arrogant attitude that many Linux user have. "Newbies posting to our mailing list? How impertinent!" So where do the users go who are trying to setup something at home? Are they forced to pay big buck to SuSE for that support? Just like Windows?

...

I thought this was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment, you seem to want to teach them administrator skills right away.

All I said in this regard was "introductory Linux course" and not that this course "was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment". Depending on the length of the course, I tend to agree with Zentara that certain admin skills need to be taught, and I say *even if* they are "standard" users. For example, just understanding the concept of backups would save a lot of heartache. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing lists or forums are subject to reposting.

zentara

14:54

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:52:10 +0200 James Mohr wrote:

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...
...
--show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation

No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

Again depends on the audience. I tend to believe (at least hope) that people **wanting** to learn Linux will be receptive to more info. However, those that are *required* need to be "protected" a little.

Well the intended audience was India. And from what I've been seeing, Indians are beating the pants off of US students, in programming and technical skills in general. Places like MIT are filling up with Indian students, and just about all programming contracts are going to "offshore Indian programming sweatshops". I think the Indian audience can handle the details. -- use Perl; #powerful programmable prestidigitation

James Mohr

18:20

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Tuesday 03 June 2003 16:54, zentara wrote: <snip>

...

Well the intended audience was India. And from what I've been seeing, Indians are beating the pants off of US students, in programming and technical skills in general. Places like MIT are filling up with Indian students, and just about all programming contracts are going to "offshore Indian programming sweatshops".

I think the Indian audience can handle the details.

Point well made. -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing lists or forums are subject to reposting.

Theo v. Werkhoven

20:42

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

* Tue, 03 Jun 2003, zentara@zentara.net:

...

On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 14:52:10 +0200 James Mohr wrote:

...
...
...
--show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation

No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

Again depends on the audience. I tend to believe (at least hope) that people **wanting** to learn Linux will be receptive to more info. However, those that are *required* need to be "protected" a little.

Well the intended audience was India. And from what I've been seeing, Indians are beating the pants off of US students, in programming and technical skills in general. Places like MIT are filling up with Indian students, and just about all programming contracts are going to "offshore Indian programming sweatshops".

I think the Indian audience can handle the details.

I agree on this one, Indian people seem to have a special gene for IT work (or is it that they'r just very eager to get ahead?) Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 27N , 4 29 45E. SuSE 8.2 x86 Kernel k_Athlon 2.4.20-4GB See headers for PGP/GPG info.

Theo v. Werkhoven

20:40

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

* Tue, 03 Jun 2003, suse_mailing_list@jimmo.com:

...

On Monday 02 June 2003 00:24, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:

...

...
...
--show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling

Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

Here too we have a problem with Linux itself. In contrast to Windows, you don't always have the plug-n-play internet connections. Despite my experience, I got extremely frustrated getting my DSL connection working because drivers weren't included, there was no GUI or even a setup script and the documentation to set it up was spread across several web sites. Thank goodness for the SuSE mailing lists. So, just how do they connect to the intenet without this knowledge?

Be thankfull, I had to write my own PPP script from some poor written howto's and man-pages when I was playing with Slackware 2.3 in '95 Learned an awful lot in those days though, trial-and-error is a great teacher (a very expensive one too, it cost me a lot of connect "kwartjes" (quarters) before I got it right).

...

On the other hand, if the audience is "standard" users, you are correct that it beyond them.

...
...
--introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories

Backup in a network environment isn't something you leave up to a luser, you do that on the server with all the NFS mounts etc.

You making an assumption there that these are students who are being required by their company management to take a Linux course and that there is a IT department supporting them. All I said was "In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are moving up from Windows to Linux. " This *could* be people in a company, but it could be a home user who does not have a personal IT department.

Ok, that's clear now.

...

...
...
Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they advance.

You want ordinary desktop (office) users to start questions on mailinglists and usenet when they have a problem? Get real please, without a inhouse helpdesk and like I said a sysadmin they don't stand a chance to bring this to a successful outcome.

Maybe I am interpreting you wrong, but that is a very elitist attitude and does the exact **opposite** of what we are trying to accomplish. I see if frequently that a big complaint against Linux is the arrogant attitude that many Linux user have. "Newbies posting to our mailing list? How impertinent!"

Sorry, wasn't ment as such. I wanted to point out the fresh Linux tryers just do not know what the questions are that they seek an answer to, so they always seem to ask the "wrong" questions. That's not their fault probably, it's just that they have no idea where to begin with "smart" questions. You know aswell as I that this gives lots of friction on lists and newsgroups where most of the time more seasoned users gather.

...

So where do the users go who are trying to setup something at home? Are they forced to pay big buck to SuSE for that support? Just like Windows?

SuSE and others do their very best to keep them from the "source of evil" and show them the "source of knowledge", but getting new users to invest time and effort themself is increasingly difficult imho. There's nothing wrong with payed support afaic, aslong it's not forced upon.

...

...
I thought this was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment, you seem to want to teach them administrator skills right away.

All I said in this regard was "introductory Linux course" and not that this course "was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment". Depending on the length of the course, I tend to agree with Zentara that certain admin skills need to be taught, and I say *even if* they are "standard" users. For example, just understanding the concept of backups would save a lot of heartache.

It certainly helps if users grasp why it's so important to have backups. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 27N , 4 29 45E. SuSE 8.2 x86 Kernel k_Athlon 2.4.20-4GB See headers for PGP/GPG info.

James Mohr

12:30

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Sunday 01 June 2003 22:44, zentara wrote: <snip>

...

I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers --show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation --show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install --show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling --introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories

Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they advance.

Good ideas. Again how detailed it goes will depend on whether we are dealing with admins or only users. However, I am a believer that even a "normal" user should be able to accomplish many admin tasks on their own. As far as the backups to CD go, I think in general that is a good idea. Assuming that they have a CD-Writer. However, I have a script that backups all of my primary configuration files (i.e. httpd.conf, smb.conf, /etc/ppp/ and so forth). This is done to a different disk than my root FS. However, the principle is that same and it might even be worth discussing the various aspects of each. regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing lists or forums are subject to reposting.

James Mohr

12:22

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

On Sunday 01 June 2003 21:20, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote: <snip>

...

- single-tree file system vs trees on drives; mount & umount - difference between a real multi-user OS vs one with "multi-user" bolted on; simultaneous logins, su, sudo, remote login. - file-permission; on directory and files, umask - /dev notion; block, character, special - X vs Explorer; windowmanager, desktopmanager - Online help (man, /usr/share/doc, KDE help center etc) - notion about security; root & lusers, why so many system users - scripting; (ba)sh, awk, sed, python - textfile editting: vi/emacs/joe/... - notion about processes and memory management as seen with ps or top - some basic network notion: ifconfig/route/ip - notion about kernel versions, distro versions, OSS licenses

Theo

I like these ideas, particularly the " X vs Explorer". I think it would be extremely effected to address many of the issues as "Linux vs Windows". I have always found that by making comparisons you often learn three things instead of just one. First you learn the two different ways and the third thing you learn is that any particular aspect is different between the two operating systems. regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups, mailing lists or forums are subject to reposting.

Stanley Long

2 Jun 2 Jun

00:53

New subject: [SLE] I need ideas for Linux training course (OT)

James Mohr wrote:

...

Hi All!

It is a nice coincidence that we have a headline "Indian president in favor of Linux". I have been approached by a training company in India to help develop course work for introductory Linux course (eventually advanced topics). In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are moving up from Windows to Linux. That is, they have some basic computer knowledge (at least what is necessary to run Windows), so they need Linux-specifica.

James, this is "suse-linux ", so I guess I can use a specific SuSE example :-) Here in Anchorage, we have a "Friday Linux" worksession each Friday evening. No, it is NOT called installfest, but we do at least three installs a month. This is a free, low profile walk-in affair, not a formal class. Bear with me while I rant & rave ... New people need to see how easy things go. I let them put the install CD/DVD in the machine and (preferably) turn the power back on. They get to select English as the language, because we are in Alaska. They just watch things progress. Just use defaults, because they really need to see things done more than once. When YaST asks how much software should be installed, THEN I jump in and pick the "Detailed Selection" option, and go right into the games area. Yep, GAMES. I do that much for them, then give the mouse back to them. They are told to left click on the name so as to read the description. Help them SELECT one or two titles for installation. They are made to DESELECT one or two (so they have to put them back in on their own ;-) Tell them to start through the list, and WALK AWAY. In about five minutes they are at home, happy, feeling successful, and you have a new friend. If they want, you can show them something of how the menues work, but only if they want to know. Have THEM "accept" and let the YaST do the rest. If perchance, you have an intense math major, maybe then would do as well in another catagory, but those kind probably know about Linux already (and they are probably the best gamers ). At this point you will find how nice DVDs are. I have a portable one to strap on just because it helps so much. Be sure to select "Details" during the install so they have the software names scrolling past. Most people ARE curious, and they want to feel like they know what is happening. It is the illusion of being in charge, but it feels good. If it is their own machine, help them pick a root password. In any case, help them pick a username and password. Right here is where you get your licks in regarding security. Security is an attitude, and you dare not bury them with details yet. As soon as the machine boots and runs, put them into whatever application they know best. Again, position them where they can feel immediate success and get them past the fright of some unknown world. I might add, let YaST do the video card / monitor stuff on its own unless they are ready for it. That is for the curious and knowing. It is a reward and a badge of progress for the slightly advanced student. From there on, it probably doesn't matter what you do. Let them explore a LOT. The less you do the better, for that first lesson. The genius of those who replied earlier kicks in after the first intro session.

...

There are the obvious things like differences in commands/options, dual booting, SAMBA, and so forth. However, I would really appreaciate some brain storming ideas on what I could/should include. My partner tells me that India is pretty much "Microsoft country" and there are no companies that provide Linux training. This would be a great oppotunity to show IT people the power of Linux.

Remember, James, that we KNOW the power of Linux, but they are afraid. Show them that Linux is friendly. Show them that it will do what they want it to do. They will figure out the power stuff for themselves. When thet happen you really have a loyal friend. Have FUN, and keep up enough steam to stay ahead of them.

...

Any help would be greatly appreaciated.

Regards,

jimmo

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participants (8)

James Mohr
Jerry Feldman
John LeMay
Pagan
Stanley Long
Theo v. Werkhoven
Togan Muftuoglu
zentara