Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (3729 mails)

[James Mohr <suse_mailing_list@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Monday 02 June 2003 00:24, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:
> > I would say get them basic skills first:
> > --have them install a system which boots to the commandline
> > --have them setup the X server with different window managers
>
> I was under the impression that the Linux boxes would be supplies
> pre-installed.  A user with basic Windows usage skills isn't required to
> know howto install Windows either, and few would know howto for that
> matter.

At this point it is not clear, but I think you are both right. If the audience 
is a "standard" user then installation would probably be too much. However, 
if this a course for either advanced users or people who want to be, then 
installation ought to be inclidesed.

> > --show them how to use mc  :-)
> > --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl
> >         -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat
> > correlation
>
> No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have
> to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume
> that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs,
> otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

Again depends on the audience. I tend to believe (at least hope) that people 
**wanting** to learn Linux will be receptive to more info. However, those 
that are *required* need to be "protected" a little.

>
> > --show them the basic routine for compiling c source:
> >         -> configure, make, make install
>
> Same comment as above.

I might have to agree with Pagan on this one. It is both an advantage and 
disadvantage that Linux software can run on so many platforms. The 
disadvantage is that you don't always have a binary version and if you want 
the program you will have to compile it.  However, I could imagine that this 
is part of "supplemental information" that is provided with the course 
material and not presented in class.

> > --show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling
>
> Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

Here too we have a problem with Linux itself. In contrast to Windows, you 
don't always have the plug-n-play internet connections. Despite my 
experience, I got extremely frustrated getting my DSL connection working 
because drivers weren't included, there was no GUI or even a setup script and 
the documentation to set it up was spread across several web sites. Thank 
goodness for the SuSE mailing lists. So, just how do they connect to the 
intenet without this knowledge?

On the other hand, if the audience is "standard" users, you are correct that 
it beyond them.

> > --introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it)
> >        -> show them the correlation between  tgz  and zip, let them
> >              tgz and untgz directories
>
> Backup in a network environment isn't something you leave up to a luser,
> you do that on the server with all the NFS mounts etc.

You making an assumption there that these are students who are being required 
by their company management to take a Linux course and that there is a IT 
department supporting them. All I said was "In the first stage we will be 
developing a course for people who are moving up from Windows to Linux. " 
This *could* be people in a company, but it could be a home user who does not 
have a personal IT department.
>
> > Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough
> > to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they
> > advance.
>
> You want ordinary desktop (office) users to start questions on mailinglists
> and usenet when they have a problem? Get real please, without a inhouse
> helpdesk and like I said a sysadmin they don't stand a chance to bring this
> to a successful outcome.

Maybe I am interpreting you wrong, but that is a very elitist attitude and 
does the exact **opposite** of what we are trying to accomplish. I see if 
frequently that a big complaint against Linux is the arrogant attitude that 
many Linux user have. "Newbies posting to our mailing list? How impertinent!"

So where do the users go who are trying to setup something at home? Are they 
forced to pay big buck to SuSE for that support? Just like Windows?

> I thought this was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux
> environment, you seem to want to teach them administrator skills right
> away.

All I said in this regard was "introductory Linux course" and not that this 
course "was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment".  
Depending on the length of the course, I tend to agree with Zentara that 
certain admin skills need to be taught, and I say *even if* they are 
"standard" users. For example, just understanding the concept of backups 
would save a lot of heartache. 

Regards,

jimmo
-- 
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