On Friday 08 November 2002 08:29, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
* Anders Johansson;
on 08 Nov, 2002 wrote: If Richard Bos doesn't stop advocating alpha-grade software for use by newbies I'm going to get seriously pissed off
I think it is a two way road. ( maybe more) First off all let's assume it is not alpha grade.
a) On a production system ( ie that you are using daily basis) I would not even think to stay on the edge for any software including the kernel)
b) On a production system I would only use tools that are made by SuSE for SuSE so I would not create problems while maintaining the system ( note maintaining is used as security updates not developing edge)
Well, not to disagree with one of the gurus of the list, but I have run into considerable grief by just running a YOU on the wrong day. The archives of this list are littered with the bones of other people who have encountered the same. In fact, my approach to YOU (now, anyway) is to watch the list and see if a few days go past *without* people complaining that "I just did a YOU update and all my WXYZ stopped working!" Then, I cross my fingers and activate YOU, and hope that I'm in the middle of a "stable" period between dangerous/flaky YOU passes. That's for my office laptop. At home, it's my personal-stuff and "fun" machine. On that one, I tried apt-get and synaptic. I'm still trying to dig myself out of that hole... maybe I'll have some time this weekend.
Now since apt-get is not a specific SuSE tool any software installed with it has the potential of creating problems with future SuSE updates, upgrades. (that is how I see it)
For newcomers here is my dumb question if you are still trying to figure out the internals of SuSE Linux
a) why do you want to play with something SuSE does not support b) If you prefer to have apt-get either use Debian or Connectiva (which was the first to have apt-4rpm )
I guess because, from my perspective at the bottom of the heap, all the knowledgeable people look alike (well, some are friendlier and more detailed than others, but it's not possible to judge their relative credibility), so when two or ten of them suggest something like apt-get as a solution for a) a problem that I have (or one that sounds like it) or b) a problem that I'm going to have soon, because I've decided to install/configure something and people have been talking about their experiences with it... then, I tend to take them seriously.
But the best of all if apt-get users can have a separete mailinglist so if there are problems they solve it there. This providing the possibility of the new comers never hearing of apt-rpm ( I know this is not good for marketing Richard) but we may minimize the impact of the possible problems
Well, it would probably solve a lot of problems if Richard would include a regular sig like: "Kids: Do not try this at home! If you are not ANSWERING more questions than you are ASKING on the list, then you are not qualified to use this software without adult supervision."
I have been monitoring this list in detail ( that is since SuSEFAQ started I stop deleting threads I don't like) the majority of the problems are arising from installing the developing edge applications and this is sad.
Well, this is such a difficult area -- what is a developing-edge application? That may sound like a dumb question, to which the answer is a simple: "anything that has a version number less than 1.0". However, look at OpenOffice.org. That one was released at 1.0.0 less than a year ago. So it must have been edgy, developmental software up until that time, right? Well, no. The same basic code is used for StarOffice 6.0. Now, StarOffice went through a period of "point" releases before it ever hit 1.0, and then it's had several years to go through the full integers from 1 through to 6. Please don't tell me that *that* is a risky, developmental software. Meanwhile, there are common utilities and apps that have been in widespread use, and are considered basics for everybody's toolbox, and they have yet to achieve 0.9 release, even though they've been having point-dot-point releases for several years.
My understanding is use the system as it is designed to maximize outcome
Well, that sounds good, too, except that my experience with (say) YaST is that it does many things quite well, but it hides many things and does not give the possibility of optional approaches within its interface. I've had several such experiences, one of which is the printer setup. It seems obvious to me that many people need to access printers that are not on the same subnet or segment as their PC, but the YaST print configuration searches only within the local subnet, and doesn't give an option to type in the base address of neighboring subnets, so as to widen the search and include more printers/servers. So, immediately I must exit YaST2 and go into a succession of config files... which sorta defeats the purpose of using YaST2, doesn't it? Just one example. So, the point here is that if a tool comes along that seems to offer similar updating/installing capabilities, but with a bit more transparency, us newbies (real) and newbies (perennial slow learners) take it out for a spin. Thus, the tool itself should have perhaps a novice and an expert mode, with various nags and expository text files (maybe even links to some of the recent threads on this list? :-) for the newbies, which could be turned off for the advanced user. For example, when we see that a whole s**t-load of packages are going to be uninstalled, we remember YOU doing that on a regular basis... after which it re-installs same-or-newer versions to keep the rest of the system working, while permanently removing only the one app/package (in a dependency jungle) that was actually desired to uninstall. So, then it's a surprise when apt-get uninstalls a bunch of stuff to get one program uninstalled, but then doesn't bother to put back all the other connected ones that the user wants to keep. A big, red, flashing message: "Hey, Bozo. Half of your system is going to go away if you continue! Reconsider!" would have been appropriate right about there... Actually, I'm still not sure... if I want to use lprng, I get nasty messages that says "This application conflicts with CUPS". In YaST, there was no way (at least not obvious) to "just disable what's appropriate to make lprng work, without killing half of KDE". Is it true, then, that if you are running a full implementation of KDE, then your printing is done via CUPS/KUPS and you are not allowed other options? If you want to install JUST a printing capability that is not CUPS, then you are required to sacrifice most-of/all-of KDE due to dependencies and conflicts? This is the impression I'm gathering from recent postings along with my experience when I installed 8.0 last year. Either it's true, but was never really explained anywhere, or it's false, but I've been getting some wrong messages lately to make me think that way. Anyway, that's the perspective from down here in the Linux/SuSE gutter. /kevin