* Stephan Kulow [Oct 07. 2009 19:48]:

Am Mi 07 Okt 2009 13:39:27 CEST schrieb Michael Andres :

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On Wednesday 07 October 2009 11:58:48 Stephan Kulow wrote:

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- of this package, check all provides with namespace weakremover (I'm open for suggestions on a better name :)

beloved_junk

On the way home I thought "markdrop" would be a good fit for what we want to express.

One takeaway from the RPM summit was the difficulties people have with new names, e.g. our weak dependencies. So I'd strongly suggest to use well-known operations like 'erase' (rpm), 'remove' (yum), or 'obsolete' (rpm). Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

* Stephan Kulow [Oct 07. 2009 22:02]:

On Wednesday 07 October 2009 21:02:03 Klaus Kaempf wrote:

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* Stephan Kulow [Oct 07. 2009 19:48]:

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Am Mi 07 Okt 2009 13:39:27 CEST schrieb Michael Andres :

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On Wednesday 07 October 2009 11:58:48 Stephan Kulow wrote:

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- of this package, check all provides with namespace weakremover (I'm open for suggestions on a better name :)

beloved_junk

On the way home I thought "markdrop" would be a good fit for what we want to express.

One takeaway from the RPM summit was the difficulties people have with new names, e.g. our weak dependencies.

So I'd strongly suggest to use well-known operations like 'erase' (rpm), 'remove' (yum), or 'obsolete' (rpm).

Do you understand the problem? rpm isn't doing the distribution upgrade.

Coolo, its about people trying to grasp the semantics of your invented names. 'weakremover' is acceptable since it picks up the 'remove' name from yum, but people will have a hard time with 'markdrop'. Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag 09 Oktober 2009 schrieb Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett:

On Wednesday 07 October 2009 23:14:19 Bart Whiteley wrote:

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On 10/07/2009 03:58 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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As we support now zypper dup as official distribution upgrade,

I've never had the courage to run 'zypper dup', as it frightens me. After installing 11.2m8, 'zypper dup' reports that it needs to reinstall 169 packages. These are in addition to a few upgrades and downgrades.

Why the need to reinstall 169 packages?

Because the packages got rebuilt and they are not "the same" [1]

But if they are rebuilt, they get new release and are "updated" and not "reinstalled" Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:26:09AM -0600, Bart Whiteley wrote:

On 10/12/2009 04:01 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am Freitag 09 Oktober 2009 schrieb Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett:

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On Wednesday 07 October 2009 23:14:19 Bart Whiteley wrote:

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Why the need to reinstall 169 packages?

Because the packages got rebuilt and they are not "the same" [1]

But if they are rebuilt, they get new release and are "updated" and not "reinstalled"

Exactly. So the question remains, why are they being "reinstalled"?

I don't know why, but I know how: If you answer "d"etails to the Continue prompt of zypper, it will show that the version+release does not change (-> reinstall, not update) but the vendor does. -- Martin Vidner, YaST developer http://en.opensuse.org/User:Mvidner Kuracke oddeleni v restauraci je jako fekalni oddeleni v bazenu -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 15 October 2009 18:55:09 Bart Whiteley wrote:

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If you answer "d"etails to the Continue prompt of zypper, it will show that the version+release does not change (-> reinstall, not update) but the vendor does.

I'm not seeing that. The vendor is "openSUSE" for the packages already installed, as well as the packages in the repo that zypper wants to reinstall.

On a fresh 11.2 rc1 system, 'zypper dup' wants to reinstall 172 packages. I did notice that they are all noarch packages.

For it's classification zypper does not explicitly look at the buildtime. Zypper calls it reinstall, if the edition stays the same. But the solver would not have selected the package if nothing had changed (arch, vendor, repo, buildtime). -- cu, Michael Andres +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Key fingerprint = 2DFA 5D73 18B1 E7EF A862 27AC 3FB8 9E3A 27C6 B0E4 +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Michael Andres YaST Development ma@novell.com SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) Maxfeldstrasse 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany, ++49 (0)911 - 740 53-0 +------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag 15 Oktober 2009 schrieb Bart Whiteley:

On 10/15/2009 11:34 AM, Michael Andres wrote:

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On Thursday 15 October 2009 18:55:09 Bart Whiteley wrote:

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If you answer "d"etails to the Continue prompt of zypper, it will show that the version+release does not change (-> reinstall, not update) but the vendor does.

I'm not seeing that. The vendor is "openSUSE" for the packages already installed, as well as the packages in the repo that zypper wants to reinstall.

On a fresh 11.2 rc1 system, 'zypper dup' wants to reinstall 172 packages. I did notice that they are all noarch packages.

For it's classification zypper does not explicitly look at the buildtime. Zypper calls it reinstall, if the edition stays the same. But the solver would not have selected the package if nothing had changed (arch, vendor, repo, buildtime).

The build time and build host differ.

The problem with noarch packages is they exist twice: once built "for x86_64" and once built "for i586". The repo generation is supposed to prefer one over the other to avoid such problems, but it doesn't always work - it seems to me. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag 16 Oktober 2009 schrieb Michael Schroeder:

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 11:48:11AM +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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The problem with noarch packages is they exist twice: once built "for x86_64" and once built "for i586". The repo generation is supposed to prefer one over the other to avoid such problems, but it doesn't always work - it seems to me.

It can't work if you install the x86_64 LiveCD.

That's a fair point and I see no solution for that ;( At least the problem is understood now, so we can document it. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 29 October 2009 18:42:27 Bart Whiteley wrote:

I just installed 11.2 rc2 from gnome liveCD, then immediately ran 'zypper dup'. It installed over 1GB of new software, including 184MB worth of OpenOffice.org help files in six languages I don't speak.

Why doesn't 'zypper dup' stick to distribution upgrades? Instead it seems to install the union of the favorite packages of every SUSE developer, or some such.

Because the livecd distribution is not as complete as it can be. OpenOffice package recommends things and zypper upgrades your distribution to complete it. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 30 October 2009 05:34:21 Michael Matz wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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On Thursday 29 October 2009 18:42:27 Bart Whiteley wrote:

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I just installed 11.2 rc2 from gnome liveCD, then immediately ran 'zypper dup'. It installed over 1GB of new software, including 184MB worth of OpenOffice.org help files in six languages I don't speak.

Why doesn't 'zypper dup' stick to distribution upgrades? Instead it seems to install the union of the favorite packages of every SUSE developer, or some such.

Because the livecd distribution is not as complete as it can be. OpenOffice package recommends things and zypper upgrades your distribution to complete it.

That is something that can and should be mentioned somewhere, release notes, websites, whatever is "hip" currently. For some people it might be good news ("I'll get fantastic new languages I never dreamed of") that make a difference of choice, for some others it guides the expectations they have towards first online updates from a CD/liveCD/DVD.

"Note that due to space limitations we can't put everything onto a physical medium like a DVD. We try to strive for a good balance but sometimes we have to leave out even recommended packages. So don't be surprised if the first online update you do tries to install some additional packages."

Actually in older releases I softlocked the packages that would be installed to avoid this suprise. But this information is not displayed anywhere, so it's pretty complicated to "break". But I will still do that, see e.g. bug#550875 - these "recommendations" just have too many suprises. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

2009/10/30 Bart Whiteley :

On 10/30/2009 12:26 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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On Friday 30 October 2009 05:34:21 Michael Matz wrote:

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Hi,

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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On Thursday 29 October 2009 18:42:27 Bart Whiteley wrote:

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I just installed 11.2 rc2 from gnome liveCD, then immediately ran 'zypper dup'.  It installed over 1GB of new software, including 184MB worth of OpenOffice.org help files in six languages I don't speak.

Why doesn't 'zypper dup' stick to distribution upgrades?  Instead it seems to install the union of the favorite packages of every SUSE developer, or some such.

Because the livecd distribution is not as complete as it can be. OpenOffice package recommends things and zypper upgrades your distribution to complete it.

That is something that can and should be mentioned somewhere, release notes, websites, whatever is "hip" currently.  For some people it might be good news ("I'll get fantastic new languages I never dreamed of") that make a difference of choice, for some others it guides the expectations they have towards first online updates from a CD/liveCD/DVD.

"Note that due to space limitations we can't put everything onto a physical medium like a DVD.  We try to strive for a good balance but sometimes we have to leave out even recommended packages.  So don't be surprised if the first online update you do tries to install some additional packages."

Actually in older releases I softlocked the packages that would be installed to avoid this suprise. But this information is not displayed anywhere, so it's pretty complicated to "break". But I will still do that, see e.g. bug#550875 - these "recommendations" just have too many suprises.

Multiple languages of help files is clearly a bug.  Beyond that though, I believe this whole way of thinking is flawed.  Back in the day where the install was performed mainly by DVD or multiple CDs, and there were no online repositories, it made sense to install everything that most users might someday need up front.  Otherwise, installing things later was painful ("now where did I put that DVD?").  Now, with ubiquitous broadband, great online repos, and a great tool (zypper), we don't need to do this anymore.  Rather than immediately bring a liveCD install in sync with a DVD install, just let the user install things as she discovers that they are missing.

I watched 'zypper dup' run for about an hour, and nearly everything it pulled down are things I don't want.  I would rather use that disk space for something else.  If I am missing something, it is easy to fetch.  In fact, I've been running 11.2 since m7, and the first time I ran 'zypper dup' was with rc2.  I never noticed anything missing prior to running 'zypper dup'.

If some people do want to immediately bring a liveCD install in sync with a DVD install, make it a different zypper command.  Don't combine it with upgrade.  'zypper dup' should only be concerned with upgrade. Make a different command: 'zypper install_a_bunch_of_recommended_junk'

We have a problem here. I use KDE, but since I saw this I installed the x86-64 Gnome liveCD and: - zypper dup and zypper inr behavior differs. zypper inr tries to install a lot of -32bit packages. What is worst, the GTK and Qt YaST software installation modules have the same behavior than zypper inr. Right now I installed all the packages from "zypper up", since there were updates related to the software management stack, but the behavior is the same. With only repo-oss and repo-update enabled: zypper dup tries to install 212 new packages (ok), zypper dup --no-recommends says there is nothing to do (ok), zypper inr tries to install 364 packages, with a lot of -32bit (WTF!?!). There is a bug in zypper inr... - As Bart said I get OpenOffice_org-help in french, german and italian (and others) when my /var/lib/zypp/RequestedLocales file just list es_ES and en_US (and was the same without es_ES). In general there isn't an easy way of knowing why a package was trigerred for installation. Perhaps it "supplements" something, in this case it can be easy. Buf if another package "recommends" it... how do you know which package is doing the recommendation? I needed to install the Qt version (with libqdialogsolver1) to know which package was doing the recommendation. One of the few cases where a GUI app has functionality missing in the CLI version... So, why OpenOffice_org-help-de is triggered for installation? ...because the liveCD installs OpenOffice_org-l10n-de and OpenOffice_org-help-de supplements it. I always install from the DVD so I never had this problem. But I understand that the liveCD only copies an image and so the installed packages can't be selected. So the question is: it really makes sense to put french, italian and german translations in the liveCD image??? I'm the Catalan guy... I have two mother tongues and neither of them is English. But I would have no problem with the liveCD being English only, with the translations automatically selected for install from Internet (or the Addon-Lang CD) after installation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 October 2009 20:12:20 Stephan Kulow wrote:

I guess I can do that. Even though I would prefer %docdir/openSUSE- release/droplist.

You're right. -- cu, Michael Andres +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Key fingerprint = 2DFA 5D73 18B1 E7EF A862 27AC 3FB8 9E3A 27C6 B0E4 +------------------------------------------------------------------+ Michael Andres YaST Development ma@novell.com SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) Maxfeldstrasse 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany, ++49 (0)911 - 740 53-0 +------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Michael Andres wrote:

Done in libzypp-6.18.1. zypp.conf also provides a new option to be able to turn off this behaviour:

       +##        +## Valid values:       Boolean        +## Default value:      true        +##        +# solver.upgradeRemoveDropedPackages = true

Just in case someone prefers no/manual cleanup.

I hope you mean "solver.upgradeRemoveDroppedPackages" (two 'p'' in Dropped). -- Jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: zypp-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: zypp-devel+help@opensuse.org