October 2020 - openSUSE Web - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-web] Re: [opensuse-doc] Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Refreshing the openSUSE learning experience
by adathor 16 Oct '20

16 Oct '20

Have to fully agree with Adrien, but just to clarify our intentions: We wish to sort the wiki in a way that is easier to find information on given matters for users who are struggling with a problem or just generally wish to find information on a topic or on openSUSE. This project is not about excluding other platforms where contribution is currently happening. This project is not about gatekeeping. This project is not about control or setting limitations on contributors. This project is not about "questioning openSUSE's guiding principles". This project is purely about knowledge sharing and encouraging new users to openSUSE to learn, find out more about openSUSE and maybe later down the road contribute to the project in some form if they feel like it. > So if you read 3 minutes into the backlog you'll see that "Protect" in > the context has nothing to do with dogma or exclusion or control, but > on the contrary was about propagating up-to-date information and > empirically tested good practices. We've already established with Adrien a point in our list which calls for "Collectors" who are collecting issues and materials from all the places where discussions happening what we can work with. This assumes that we can map these places successfully. So if you're a contributor who is documenting on X platform that's fine. Nobody will force you into doing anything that you don't want to or using a platform or format you don't feel comfortable with. Drop a link to your documentation(s) so we can include it in form of a link at least. Life goes on, business as usual. Furthermore, what we settled on during our first meeting with Lana and Frank is to turn doc.opensuse.org into a hub from where the current documentations will be accessible in their current format and will link to certain topics - like FAQ - on en.opensuse.org. We're more than happy to hear other suggestions, however, considering that the Welcome app is pointing to doc.opensuse.org seems like a reasonable decision. The goal is simple: lower the barrier of entry, make documentations easier to find by making them available on en.opensuse.org in collaboration with the maintainers/contributors. A. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Friday, October 16, 2020 7:06 AM, Adrien Glauser <adrien.glauser(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I have to agree with Lars on this topic. > > "Protect" sounds to me like > > And that's where the discussion went bankrupt, where the topic was > shifted to how someone felt about a word when instead there was a > precise definition of what the word meant, and a concrete context > against which that definition was illustrated. Perhaps I am the one to > fault for this as I've been quite long winded on this topic. > > So if you read 3 minutes into the backlog you'll see that "Protect" in > the context has nothing to do with dogma or exclusion or control, but > on the contrary was about propagating up-to-date information and > empirically tested good practices. > > Anyway, I have little interest in building a theory of learning in the > FOSS environment, let alone defending it on this ML. Just wanted to > keep people in the loop. I will continue to do so, but at the end of > the day, only concrete results matter. Anyone here will have plenty of > time to make constructive criticisms of every aspect and detail of the > results, and I have no reason to doubt that we will try our best to > honour them. > > See ya later > > the team wants to artifically limit me (as > > > a contributor) on which platforms I can use to engage with other > > openSUSE contributors and define exactly where I must go if I wish to > > provide information to openSUSE users. > > I assure you, if that is the case, then I will cease contributing to > > any "official" openSUSE documentation platform and only provide > > information via platforms of my own control. > > Like Lars says, we're a diverse bunch, and respecting that diversity is > > a key value of the openSUSE's guiding principles. > > I do hope I have misunderstood what you mean by "Protect", but if I > > have not, then I hope I make it very clear where I stand on the matter. > > > > > Le mercredi 14 octobre 2020 à 16:22 +0200, Lars Vogdt a écrit : > > > > > > > Am 2020-10-14 15:11, schrieb Adrien Glauser: > > > > > > > > > My beef with it is that it kinda assumes that we want to > > > > > accept the status quo with the current level fragmentation in > > > > > support > > > > > material, while this "refreshing the learning experience" is > > > > > about > > > > > challenging the status quo. To be clear, we are talking about two > > > > > strategies: > > > > > (Repair) Bite the bullet about fragmentation, make or customize a > > > > > search engine able to fight fragmentation after the facts, so > > > > > that > > > > > support material is dynamically aggregated. > > > > > (Protect) Refuse to bite the bullet, prevent fragmentation in the > > > > > first > > > > > place by collecting information into a static (yet easy to > > > > > maintain) > > > > > single "source of truth & best practices", and then hope it > > > > > irrigates > > > > > all platforms. > > > > > > > > I have to admit that I really like your enthusiasm and wish your > > > > project > > > > all the best! > > > > I just fear that "Repair" is the only realistic option, especially > > > > long > > > > term. > > > > Why? We are an open source project with a lot of individuals trying > > > > to > > > > work on their areas of interest. Often enough these areas produce > > > > very > > > > interesting and useful stuff, but the results could - at least in > > > > the > > > > beginning - not be integrated under your "protect" umbrella > > > > (mostly > > > > because of resource or time restrictions). You can decide to loose > > > > some > > > > of these projects because of your restrictions, but I'm not sure if > > > > this > > > > is a good idea. > > > > We are diverse. Everyone has different opinions and different > > > > favorite > > > > tools. Trying to press everyone into the same tooling will not help > > > > to > > > > get more volunteers. I even tend to say that people who provided > > > > content in "their" tool in the past will neither spent their > > > > current > > > > time to migrate their content nor will they update their parts in > > > > the > > > > new setup later. > > > > I have seen this in the past with the "wiki migration". A lot of > > > > people > > > > stopped their voluntary contributions once others decided that > > > > they > > > > have to move and refresh their provided content in the new wiki > > > > pages. > > > > Since than, for me, it's clear that forcing volunteers to re-do > > > > their > > > > former work is a way to push good contributors out of the system. > > > > And as I said before: so far I see the reason behind each tool that > > > > we > > > > (as openSUSE community) provide to our "customers". What I miss on > > > > the > > > > other side is kind of a portal (page) that helps people to > > > > identify > > > > these tools and ways to collaborate and contribute. And I miss - > > > > like > > > > you - volunteers that review the existing content. > > > > > > > > > About your other point about the tools that the openSUSE > > > > > platforms > > > > > provide, is there an up-to-date list of every single tool hosted > > > > > by > > > > > openSUSE? Yes I am being lazy, but better being lazy than risking > > > > > overlooking things. > > > > > > > > For projects hosted and maintained in the openSUSE universe (this > > > > includes infrastructure provided by the heroes as well as SUSE > > > > powered > > > > stuff) I suggest to look at: > > > > https://status.opensuse.org/ > > > > ...and if you click on the icon in the upper right corner of that > > > > page, > > > > you should get a cool overview of all currently known openSUSE > > > > related > > > > stuff. > > > > With kind regards, > > > > Lars > > > > -- > > Richard Brown > > Linux Distribution Engineer - Future Technology Team > > Phone +4991174053-361 > > SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 > > Nuernberg > > (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) > > Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-doc+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-doc+owner(a)opensuse.org </adrien.glauser(a)gmail.com> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-web+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-web+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-web] Re: [opensuse-project] Refreshing the openSUSE learning experience
by Sergio Lindo 13 Oct '20

13 Oct '20

Hi Carlos, > El 13 oct 2020, a las 17:41, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas(a)telefonica.net> escribió: > On 13/10/2020 14.59, Adrien Glauser wrote: >> >> - r/openSUSE > > Er... what is the meaning of the 'r/' above? That is a slang for a Reddit section. >> - https://t.me/openSUSE_group bridged with the Freenode IRC and the >> Discord ("chat" channel) > > No idea what t.me is, either. :-? This is the URL shortener from Telegram and points usually to a telegram chat/channel. Kind regards -- Sergio Lindo Mansilla Software developer with DevOps tendencies Portfolio: http://binary-sequence.github.com/

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[opensuse-web] Re: [opensuse-project] Refreshing the openSUSE learning experience
by Carlos E. R. 13 Oct '20

13 Oct '20

On 13/10/2020 14.59, Adrien Glauser wrote: > Hey Lubos, > > Thanks, hope we won't be losing steam during the journey, but at least > we're off onto something! > > Support for openSUSE is indeed quite fragmented: > - r/openSUSE Er... what is the meaning of the 'r/' above? I'm sorry, but I'm lost as to what may it mean. I suppose it is obvious to others, but to me it is new. > - https://t.me/openSUSE_group bridged with the Freenode IRC and the > Discord ("chat" channel) No idea what t.me is, either. :-? > - "support" channel on Discord bridged with the Freenode IRC > - mailing lists > - https://forums.opensuse.org > - all the non-English forums > > Now even though I don't see fragmentation as a problem in itself, there > are two kinds of fragmentation that do hurt: > > 1) The Problem of Good Answers Take Luck > When a question needs more than just descriptive material, and ought to > be answered by something like a recommendation or a short deliberation > where pros and cons have to be weighed against each other (i.e. should > I install NVIDIA proprietary drivers or openSUSE NVIDIA package or just > use Nouveau?); in this case, depending where you ask you will get > different answers, not all equally good > > 2) The Problem of Good Answers Evaporate > When a question has been met by a very good answer, which unfortunately > is not conveniently discoverable by web search engines. Heh. > And now to your remark: I don't think that r/openSUSE is an issue > because in my experience -- perhaps other experiences will tell > differently -- it avoids both Problems above, and I don't see another > Problem it'd run into. > > For me the issue is more with the instant messaging services. I use > them all the time and they are super good for coordination, but run > into both issues full throttle. There is no magic cure I can think of > right now. > > My only hope is that if we consolidate and update all documentation > material *while also offering recommendations over and above mere > descriptive material* we will be able to have a "source of truth" > useful enough to knock down the two Problems, at least as far as new > users are concerned. > > Just my opinion though. > > Cheers, > > Adrien > Ok :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

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[opensuse-web] Kanban access for doc team
by adathor 12 Oct '20

12 Oct '20

Hi, We're currently using Trello for organizing our tasks around the docs and wiki. Would it be possible to provide us with access to the openSUSE Kanban mentioned here: https://en.opensuse.org/Help:Kanban Maybe we could also help each other with some overlapping issues. -- Br, A.

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