On Monday 27 February 2006 12:11, Justin Larmon wrote:

On 2/27/06, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

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* Knowing it isn't going anywhere - Now don't get me wrong, I really doubt suseforums.net and suselinuxsupport.de are going anywhere, but one of the very big things I like about an official forum is that its here to stay. Its not going to be sold off, be replaced by advertising, or forgotten about by the owner. I have recently (and not so recently) experienced this on too many forums to list here; several of which being major forums for major F/LOSS software and several being completely unrelated, but the result was the same. The site was sold, and because of the popularity, became a place for advertisers to easily get links and prominent google results, or the new owner really didn't care and was only interested in advertising revenue, and the site went downhill, etc, etc. Knowing that an official forum exists means knowing this will never happen to the official forum.

So basically, you had bad experiences elsewhere and think it might happen to the existing forums. I know suseforums.net is not going anywhere, and I highly doubt suselinuxsupport.de is either. I also don't think either forumswill be sold of, replaced by advertising or even start advertising.

I specifically said " I really doubt suseforums.net and suselinuxsupport.de are going anywhere". I said that because I don't believe this is going to happen. However, theres always the possibility that it might, and that is also evident to new users as well. One of the things many of us fail to realize is that not all Linux users are gurus, or even quite technically adept. There are a number of users out there who are technically literate (I don't mean can read, I mean have a working knowledge of basic technologies), and many of these people believe that if the application is something real, it should have its own X. X being forum, mailing list, web site, etc, etc. Not having such a thing causes the appearance of a bad setup to such users, and they don't have the same faith that they otherwise could have in the projects longevity.

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* openSUSE is the community, and an openSUSE forum shows a more linked community. - There are people who go on mailing lists, people who go on newsgroups, people who go on forums, so on, and so on. Sometimes they go on several of these. The fact is, many new users are very familiar with forums, and know that if these forums exist, they are there to support them in some way. Not having an official forum, imho, does not show us to be a contiguous community, but more of what we seem today - scattered, uncommunicative, and disinterested in cooperation.

So why start a new forum and make it more disorganized and look like the community can't communicate. Why not just start communicating better, see if that works and if not come back later to this decision.

I don't see how it makes the existing community look disorganized - I see it as centralizing communication - not to one medium, but to one portal. How would it cause the appearance of disorganization? I'm open to the discussion, I just don't see it.

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Against a Forum:

* Angering existing forum maintainers - This is the only reason I'd have against a forum, and I don't believe its a good reason either. I don't believe they should be angry honestly, because I don't think an attempt at unifying our community into a cohesive whole could possibly be something to be against.

It's not that it is angering. It is the way this is going about. It is asking for the opinions of the maintainers but no one "in charge" going to ask. It is asking Viras to start a discussion on suselinuxsupport.de but before he gets the chance, announce there will be a "technical" forum. It is everyone saying it will help unify the community and not trying to unfiy what we have already.

Except thats not what happened, and not what was said here on the list. Again, I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong), but the decision was regarding technical *capability*, not a "technical forum". And I don't see that its possible to unify what we have already by any other means - no single existing forum can be donned "official", and yet it seems (atleast, imho) there is a desire and a need for an official forum.

How an official forum would work within the existing community:

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* Act as a central place of discussion - Bugs, packaging problems, wishlist items, etc, etc all pop up all over the existing forums. If the maintainers of those forums post on the official forum about the topic, there is only one place developers, maintainers, wiki guys, etc need to look. Theres no reason to have to monitor (yes, I know its basically 2 - but there are smaller ones elsewhere) multiple forums if theres one place for these topics to be reviewed.

If I remember correctly there were a lot of people, developers and maintainers, who said even if there was an official forum they would not use it (it was in the forum discussion last month I think). If that was the case then an official forum would not matter.

And others have said that they will. No single communication medium will ever be preferred by all, but as long as a few participate in each, and there is a degree of cross-communication, I believe it to be a step in the right direction.

* Single sign-on - The current openSUSE wiki (and thus, Novell site) logins

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should be the same as the forums. By doing so, new registrants to an official openSUSE forum could be told of how they can contribute to the wiki as well. Many posters will do lengthy tutorials, complicated packaging information, etc, and all this information is extremely valuable and welcomed as documentation on the wiki.

If there is an "official" forum, then this is a great idea.

It is not that I am personally against the idea of a new official forum, I just wonder why everyone is so quick to want a new official forum instead of trying to fix the communication between the existing forums and mailing lists first. You never know, that might be all that is needed.

Imho, we need more. Again, this is only my opinion, and I'm more than open to discussion on this, as is (I believe) everyone on this list. Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin

On Monday 27 February 2006 14:11, Keith Kastorff wrote:

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In support of a forum:

* Knowing it isn't going anywhere - Now don't get me wrong, I really doubt suseforums.net and suselinuxsupport.de are going anywhere, but one of the very big things I like about an official forum is that its here to stay. Its not going to be sold off, be replaced by advertising, or forgotten about by the owner. I have recently (and not so recently) experienced this on too many forums to list here; several of which being major forums for major F/LOSS software and several being completely unrelated, but the result was the same. The site was sold, and because of the popularity, became a place for advertisers to easily get links and prominent google results, or the new owner really didn't care and was only interested in advertising revenue, and the site went downhill, etc, etc. Knowing that an official forum exists means knowing this will never happen to the official forum. <snip> I've heard Vir@s state in no uncertain terms will he allow advertising on his forums, and I share that stance. But this brings us to a new

On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 11:44 -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote: perspective...

How could we ensure the existence of the current web based communities? Certainly financial support from Novell would help ensure that. It's not outside the realm of possibility to simply engage in dialog with those who run the forums to ascertain what factors are at play in terms of commitment and financial stability for which the global SUSE community might assist? Extend and embrace...

As you mentioned Keith, and I believe you to be one of the few qualified on here to comment on this, the possibility does exist, and it will always exist. As I said, I don't foresee any reason why this would happen, but as you noted, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't. While I agree that history has shown that in this particular instance it is not the case, there are many other areas where it, in fact, most definitely was. I'm specifically referring to kde forums, qtforums, and a sportbike forum its doubtful any of you will know :). The sites were sold to someone with little interest or knowledge in the project/topic, and the sole intention of these individuals (seperately) seemed to be the cash they could get in. The quality of the site went downhill, spunoffs began - and surely many were lost in the transition. Again, I doubt either suselinuxsupport.de or suseforums.net will ever go down these roads. What I am saying is though, prevention is the name of the game. As we've gone over, there are legal gray areas which can not and would not be discussed on an official forum, and as such, these users who ask these questions would have to look elsewhere. However, should one or more of the unofficial forums not be around, (for the sake of argument in naming) forums.opensuse.org would remain a portal to new/replacement forums for those who might be displaced, and would serve as a starting ground for new users. Atleast, thats how I see it - I believe we have to focus on prevention, regardless of my personal belief as to whether or not that would ever happen. As far as financial support... I think you'd be getting into some very rough ground legally. Such support would mean Novell would be, in some way, affiliated with the legal grey areas mentioned above, and thats not going to work. That said, I'm a sneaky bastard myself, and would be happy to help either forum if they needed some ideas on bringing in revenue (for free) :)

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* openSUSE is the community, and an openSUSE forum shows a more linked community. - There are people who go on mailing lists, people who go on newsgroups, people who go on forums, so on, and so on. Sometimes they go on several of these. The fact is, many new users are very familiar with forums, and know that if these forums exist, they are there to support them in some way. Not having an official forum, imho, does not show us to be a contiguous community, but more of what we seem today - scattered, uncommunicative, and disinterested in cooperation.

I'm not sure one can assume an OpenSUSE forum "shows a more linked community". The Wiki is full of links...is the premise to eliminate those links to create a self-contained environment? Internet users today are quite used to traversing the Internet to find what they are seeking. Could this same "linked community" be enhanced by figuring out new and better ways to use opensuse.org as a central launching/searching point for SUSE information and support? I suggested a Google-like SUSE specific search function in my first post that could be a part of this "linked community". Rarely does "contiguous" in our online presence translate to "single". The idea of a first place to go is a substantial one...but being the only place to go will very likely hurt those communities not hosted in that place. Why can't we explore the idea of embracing what we have to create the first place to go, while still including remote communities as potential destinations for part of that fulfillment?

I'm intrigued by the google-like search function/portal comment, I think thats a very interesting idea. At the very least, something like that would be an *excellent* idea to incorporate, either way - there will always be other sites out there (such as Damian's) that are great sources of info. Forum aside, I like it.

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* openSUSE.org is the known hub for SUSE now - SUSE & openSUSE as a community has been all over the prominent Linux magazines as of late, and openSUSE.org is the first place people end up going. Knowing this, and knowing the desire to get new users involved in more than just downloading or just keeping the torrent up, openSUSE.org must be the place to grab their attention and maintain it. The revised main page is a start toward this, but there needs to be a variety of options for new users to communicate directly on there. Yes, there is a list of forums now, but people will tend to think "but which is the one I'm supposed to join", or "which one has the guy who maintains xyz package", etc, etc. An official forum is a first step - even if a maintainer stays over at suselinuxsupport.de, by joining the official openSUSE forum, one of the members of this list (or of the existing forums who is on both), will be able to guide the new user where they need to go. The fact is, new users are familiar with forums, and it would be good to be able to get them right into one.

When one says "openSUSE.org must be the place to grab their attention and maintain it", it begins to sound like ownership and control are primary motivating factors. I believe this is would be incompatible with the spirit of Open Source, which encourages everyone's (individual or group) participation in the solution and supports choice. "grab their attention and maintain it" sounds more like the approach of control oriented closed source commercial entities than what we expect from the Linux community.

Not ownership and control really, but giving the impression that this is one hell of a distro, here to stay, and that they should investigate further. Compare a neat distro, RIP (Recovery Is Possible)'s site: http://www.tux.org/pub/people/kent-robott/looplinux/rip/ with any major distributions page. Now, RIP is a cool project... but how would the average user know this? I have no problem with anyone wanting to check out another distro, hell I have way too many on my own workstations at any given time, but I'd hate to see someone look elsewhere for the wrong reason. I see it more as a marketing effort, its true, but because I think the average person needs to be grabbed visually, then be drawn in and see the depth of a product. Having something as great as (even in general) Linux out there, and so many people having no clue what it is/does, I think theres a problem there. SUSE is a great distro that has incredible hardware support, its easy to use (and yes, in KDE :) ), and has some very nice features. I'm sure we all agree that the "average user" needs to see that somehow, and thats what I mean by grabbing their attention and maintaining it. Giving them something that garnishes interest, and providing more and more info until their head explodes with F/LOSS goodness :)

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* The evils of DRM, patents, etc, will have more visibility - I think its beneficial to say "We can't answer that question here, because it would be illegal. Read <link> for more information. There are other forums you can find this information at." I think it will help expose (as titled) the evils of DRM, patents, HDCP, etc, etc.

Good point. We all hate DRM. I'm for anything we can do to suppress it, but surely we don't need an OpenSUSE forum to lead this effort.

No, we don't - I'm simply saying its another reason why I like the idea. I couldn't begin to express to you what kind of a hell HDCP will be for me as an AV consultant, so it holds a significant place in my heart to rip DRM and patents apart every chance I get ;)

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Against a Forum:

* Angering existing forum maintainers - This is the only reason I'd have against a forum, and I don't believe its a good reason either. I don't believe they should be angry honestly, because I don't think an attempt at unifying our community into a cohesive whole could possibly be something to be against.

I don't believe the fear of angering existing forum maintainers should drive a bad global SUSE community decision, but a strong effort to embrace and not antagonize them couldn't hurt. Could it?

Trust me, I want incorporation and not violation... What I wanted to do by opening this up again (now more importantly that you and Viras are on this list) is to try and figure out how this could be best done.

I doubt a single existing forum maintainer would be against "unifying our community into a cohesive whole". The premise you put forward here is that there is only one path to that unification, and that it involves the creation of OpenSUSE forums, which I believe to be false. There is rarely, if ever, a single solution to a problem or desired goal. If one path preserves what has already been built, and one could threaten it, doesn't it make sense to pursue the first, unless one can come up with justification the existing is flawed beyond repair?

I know they wouldn't be, I was simply saying I don't think a new forum is something you guys would be angry about - just how its done, which (as a result of last night), I felt it appropriate to bring up again. I hold no power other than my opinion, so I'll give it plenty ;) Now, I don't believe the existing forums as flawed per se, just that I believe that the perceptions the average user has will see them as being flawed. I'll take you through what I see the user doing, say someone mentioning SUSE and guiding them through a few basics: **** "So where do I go when I need help?" "On the OpenSUSE wiki, search for your problem, or go to communicate and pick a forum." "Which forum?" "Whichever one you want." "But which one has the SUSE people?" "They all do." "Ok, but which one am *I* going to want to go to." "Any of them" "Yeah, but which one is right for me for what I'm looking for?" "Any of them." "Just tell me which one" "Any of them" **** I only see the average user being frustrated. The alternative would, imho, go like this: **** "So where do I go when I need help?" "On the OpenSUSE wiki, search for your problem, or go to the openSUSE forum. If theres somewhere else you need to be, they will tell you where to go" "OK!" **** I'm sorry for the annoying dialogue, I just have this image in my head of frustrated users randomly picking forums, thinking maybe they are going to the wrong place, asking the wrong question in the wrong area, wondering if suselinuxsupport.de means its only for Germans, etc, etc. Did I get what I'm trying to say across, or did I just confuse things? :)

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How an official forum would work within the existing community:

* Act as a central place of discussion - Bugs, packaging problems, wishlist items, etc, etc all pop up all over the existing forums. If the maintainers of those forums post on the official forum about the topic, there is only one place developers, maintainers, wiki guys, etc need to look. Theres no reason to have to monitor (yes, I know its basically 2 - but there are smaller ones elsewhere) multiple forums if theres one place for these topics to be reviewed.

Again, there are alternatives to this desired communication that do not involve the creation of OpenSUSE forums. My experience is that a typical developer prefers information come to him/her, rather than them prospecting for it. In that case, the better answer would be to deliver that information to a place a developer currently frequents, in a manner that best presents that information. An existing or new mailing list could serve just as well for a place for maintainers of existing forums to post regarding an issue, and perhaps reduce the "noise" one might encounter on a web forum.

True, but lets consider this. Much like the projects, heres an additional idea. With the advent of the SUSE build service, it would be nice of those building a package, or developing their own, had a subforum for those types of projects (or dedicated, should the quantity of posts make it seem necessary). A developer would have a place to discuss the package openly, rather than respond to individual emails, which I know can be a pain in the ass if theres a bunch of the same problems. People won't check the "news" on a web site if they think emailing the developer is the way to get in direct contact with them. So, having a forum lets these guys have a place to discuss such matters openly, so they arent inundated with emails. Also, some developers, knowing where the users of whatever-they-work-on go to ask questions, they could answer quite a bit more accurately than others. Its also a way for them to get quick feedback, since many more will post a thread in a forum rather than file a bug report. Now you are right - they would need to be asked if this is something of interest to them, but I would think atleast some would appreciate the idea.

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* Another means for direct interaction and discussion - As was seen from this discussion on the list, theres a number of people out there who are very influential within the community, and will post to forums, but have little or no interest in ever being a part of a mailing list. Since we've obviously had various areas of breakdown in communication, this will provide another (while not perfect, it is quite visible) means of interaction. Discussions on the list which continue on the forums, and vice-versa, will allow messages to be easily forwarded to and from the list and the forums. Again, not a perfect solution, but quite better than what there is now. There is definitely a feeling among users not on the list that there is a small group deciding the who/what/when/where/why of openSUSE, and this could be a start to bridging that gap.

But does "another means for direct interaction and discussion" address the issue? We have paths we could have used for that today; and didn't effectively. Mailing list/web forum gateways can be implemented or created. I believe the proper answer to this need is not the creation of another tool, but better to more effectively use those tools we already have. I'm not a mailing list person by preference; I prefer forums. But I am here, and participating. Why? Because I believe it's in the best interest of the global SUSE community, and I'm trying to change my mindset. We need _that_ from all involved. Folks who prefer mailing lists need to spend time in forums, and people who prefer forums need to spend time in mailing lists, at least enough to ensure the better communication we all agree is important. IMO, it's our mindset and behavior we need to change, not our toolset.

I don't think a gateway to the existing forums is a good idea - mostly because of the legal grey areas mentioned earlier. As you mentioned, some forum people need to get on the ML, and vice versa. As you know, I do both. I visit probably 10-15 forums every day for my personal "enjoyment", and several others that are work-related. However, I don't only believe in an official forum for us, the existing members of the community, but for the newer people. Many, many more people are trying out Linux than ever before, and they are *not* going to have the same kind of desire to be involved across a variety of mediums as we are.

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* Current moderators and administrators, perhaps along with additional moderators and administrators, will cooperatively form the staff of the official forum - Obviously, there are many who are experienced within the openSUSE community who would make ideal administrators and moderators for an official forum. As part of their job with the official forum, these existing moderators and administrators responsibilities should include the management of the information across their current forum and an official forum. Cross-posting, forwarding to the list as well, etc.

I fully agree that existing community expertise would be very valuable in managing the proposed OpenSUSE forums.

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* Single sign-on - The current openSUSE wiki (and thus, Novell site) logins should be the same as the forums. By doing so, new registrants to an official openSUSE forum could be told of how they can contribute to the wiki as well. Many posters will do lengthy tutorials, complicated packaging information, etc, and all this information is extremely valuable and welcomed as documentation on the wiki.

A single login is truly effective only if it can be implemented across _all_ resources. Unless the plan is to self contain all SUSE related support and information on the Wiki to ensure this, then it would be a step forward, but wouldn't eliminate multiple logins to external sites. By itself, this wouldn't seem to be an important benefit, given the potential negatives the control and contain mechanism could entail. I love the idea of a single login...who wouldn't?

I would think that is the goal - being that the SDB has been moved to the wiki, an HCL is in motion on the wiki, the Novell login = openSUSE login, etc, etc, thats what I see as being the case. For external sites... well I do have an idea, but I doubt Novell would be interested in allowing others to use a Novell login and do an SSO service a-la-passport or sun's version (sun ONE iirc?) (though I believe Novell's eDirectory services would do this quite well... though I have no idea how its being managed now, that could be kind of cool).

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* openSUSE project integration - Forums could be dedicated to specific projects, and perhaps even limited in posting vs. visibility; ie: a member of Better Desktop, SUPER, SLICK, JackLab, etc projects can post to their specific subforum, while all members will be able to view the posts. New members could then opt to contact project maintainers and get involved in the various subprojects, allowing these to grow as well. The project participants can post updates, and start a thread in a general forum outside of their specific subforum, noting to community members of significant updates. These types of updates may then be noted on some sort of news update on the wiki (pending main page redesign).

This is outside the box thinking, and I like it. I'd like to see a solid commitment from the specific projects to use such a mechanism before it should be used to justify the creation of OpenSUSE forums. We could create something no one would use...this would require a significant mindset and time management change from these projects. There is significant merit to this if done properly. I've not seen dialog specific to this idea before...did I just miss it?

No, I probably never mentioned it - I do that sometimes. Perhaps it would be a good idea to contact the project maintainers for SUSE-specific projects and see if this is something they'd be interested in? And, as mentioned before, see if this might be something of interest to those who would make use of the build server?

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Well, I think that about sums up my position. Imho, there are scores of benefits, but I tried to list what I felt to be the major ones here. I'm not exactly sure what the precise final answer is about what was discussed about FOSDEM, but if its technical ability, I think we should discuss how the final decision will be made. If the decision was made, then I believe we should begin discussing the incorporation of the community, and what should be happening with official openSUSE forums.

At this point, I believe it's time to list the "scores of benefits", and a bit of dirty pool to imply they exist without naming them. Not everyone may have thought of them, or remember them in this context if they have been previously discussed. IMO, the stakes are too high to ignore pertinent points of discussion. Also, since "how" in the case of OpenSUSE forums may seriously impact "whether" I believe the purpose and scope of OpenSUSE forums need some definition before a final decision is made.

Sure thing, I'll try and do that on my train ride home tonight, since I have nothing but KSudoku to keep my interest on the ride back anyway :) Now, to comment on one more thing... The common reply to alot of the reasons for a forum (and this is including as well as aside from you Keith) is that a simple small alternative can fill the gap to specific comments. For example, a mailing list for a project, a gateway to the existing forums, etc. What I would like to point out here, is at what point do the large number of small additions become more of a hassle than the single addition of a forum? Sure, a mailing list for specific tasks may do the job well, but what about finding this mailing list? I believe that by thinking in such a manner, we limit ourselves to the current situation. A new mailing list will work for the existing interested users of a particular project (to continue the example), but a forum would let them not only discuss this project, but before that, would let them find out such a project exists. A project (of any kind) is only as good as its level of exposure and its user base. The more users, the more information, the more possible developers, the greater the chances of having a project thrive and go far beyond the original expectations. To be quite honest, I fail to see any negatives to be associated with a forum... does anyone? I'd be happy to discuss them, I just don't think there are any real negatives (I would like to point out that a negative is different than a non-positive. Just because its not necessarily a benefit doesn't mean that it compromises the idea.) Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin

I would like to add that when this discussion first started there was a list of existing Forums given. Even though there were technical and unforseen reason for the sudden disapearence of one forum. It left me with the opinion that these forums were vunrable to what has been being discussed. The forum did come back but there was not warning and from what I have read it was beyond their control. But having had other forums disapear and then being replaced with ... This to me is a valid concern. Also what happens if a death of the moderator/s happen. This can and does have a big effect. Especially if the resources were private. That is the one advantage of a openSUSE forum. It will be there as long as the distro. I do think there needs to be more discussion from forum users before a commitment is made to new forums. I think that bringing in the existing forums in a global community is need. How best to do this I do not know. -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 10:14:47PM +0100, Sonja Krause-Harder wrote:

- we are working on the technical part of a forum now, because experience from the wiki shows that setting up a new website feature for openSUSE.org needs time, and because there's some custom development involved (using the same login mechanism as bugzilla and the wiki). We are starting to work on this even if the discussion is still ongoing. <snip>

Thanks for the explanation. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 10:46:47PM +0100, Viras wrote:

A possible option here would be to provide a link list to existing communities on a more "exposed" place.

That is frontpage re-design and is for opensuse-wiki. ;-) Go to openSUSe.org and click on communicate. Can't be much more exposed then that. Even documentation does not have such a prominent place. ;-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau