Mandag 26 februar 2007 10:03 skrev John Andersen:

On Sunday 25 February 2007, Morten Bjørnsvik wrote:

...

Not even plain servers worked. Mostly because they use the cheapest of the cheapest components, without assuring linux compliance.

Thats not been my experience.

I've put SLES on a couple different classes of Dell Poweredge servers and I thought they were very will built machines. Everything worked. The SLES was purchased from Dell along with the machines.

But laptops or desktops pre-installed with Linux are what this article deals with, not so much servers.

I just installed 10.2 for an engineering firm with dual 20inch Flat panels onto a Dimension 9200 with a high-end core 2 duo processor. Its an awesome machine, and it all works just fine. In fact it drives the 20 inch monitors better than XP does. Of course I had been thru the ATI knothole a few times.

This is the one thing that will get ATI to clean up its act. Linux users can bitch all day long, and still amount to 1% of the market, but when Mike Dell calls up AMD and tells them he has to have working Linux drivers that will install cleanly under linux you can bet he will get them/

-- _____________________________________ John Andersen

I've installed quite a few DELL PowerEdge 2800 with various SuSE/Linux sw. All have been very easy and works very well. I actually prefer(ed) DELL to IBM due to IBM's lack (!!) of Linux support. I never received the correct drivers for RAIDs and so, all IBM Linux seemed to be ancient RedHat7 (!!!) stuff. I gave up and ordered DELL. FYI: nowadays I use SUN Xfire 2100/2200/4200 boxes with SuSE10.2. Works like a charm. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Verner Kjærsgaard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 February 2007 02:05:58 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_d520?c=us&l= en&s=bsd&cs=04

I tried very hard to select the same components: CPU, memory, graphics card, hard drive, DVD.

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box. I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

I seem to recall there being some argument for this a while back. The pre-loaded machines actually cost the clone manufacturers less, simply because all the drivers are pre-loaded on some sort of image, whereas they need to spend more labor hours on these machines. I'm not sure how valid it is with the PC clone manufactures such as Dell or HP these days, though. All the same, those prices are not unreasonable. I'm still happy with the Monarch Systems I bought for my mom and a few friends. They were very SUSE-friendly. -- kai Free Compean and Ramos http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote: <snip>

...

There's a Canadian company that sells notebook computers with Linux or no OS for less than they charge for the same hardware with Windows.

http://www.angelcomputer.com

Thanks! -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd James Knott:

There's a Canadian company that sells notebook computers with Linux or no OS for less than they charge for the same hardware with Windows.

http://www.angelcomputer.com

Ditto Transtec in the UK: http://www.transtec.co.uk/GB/E/products/personal_computer/notebooks.html Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 February 2007 05:32:39 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

...

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box. I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

I seem to recall there being some argument for this a while back. The pre-loaded machines actually cost the clone manufacturers less, simply because all the drivers are pre-loaded on some sort of image, whereas they need to spend more labor hours on these machines.

I don't understand. Why is there any software labor on a box with no installed operating system?

The articles I had read - which all delt with why Linux doesn't come pre-installed on mass-market systems - had to do with certifying all hardware works when there is no OS loaded. Now, when I used to mass-market white-box systems in the '90s, I pretty much just ran a DOS-based test floppy on all systems to make sure they worked. I used to burn in all systems for at least 24 hours. I don't know if PC makers still do this. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com www.filesite.org || www.donutmonster.com closing the doors that surround me so no one will ever penetrate complete my retreat just to wait for the day that never comes so i will laugh alone -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 February 2007 9:46:19 pm Kai Ponte wrote:

The articles I had read - which all delt with why Linux doesn't come pre-installed on mass-market systems - had to do with certifying all hardware works when there is no OS loaded.

Now, when I used to mass-market white-box systems in the '90s, I pretty much just ran a DOS-based test floppy on all systems to make sure they worked. I used to burn in all systems for at least 24 hours.

I don't know if PC makers still do this.

MOST don't. Fred -- Remember, a consumer is a customer with no choice. DRM 'manages access' in the same way that jail 'manages freedom.' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 February 2007 5:05:58 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

I tried very hard to select the same components: CPU, memory, graphics card, hard drive, DVD.

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box.  I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

No.....hasn't started yet. But, you're correct.....they've got to get their heads out of the sand. Fred -- Remember, a consumer is a customer with no choice. DRM 'manages access' in the same way that jail 'manages freedom.' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sunny wrote:

On 2/27/07, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

On Monday 26 February 2007 5:05:58 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

I tried very hard to select the same components: CPU, memory, graphics card, hard drive, DVD.

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box. I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

No.....hasn't started yet. But, you're correct.....they've got to get their heads out of the sand.

Fred

Actually, the Win machines come with lower price because they are "subsidized" by the crap load of preinstalled trial versions of Norton, McAfee, AOL, etc. These companies pay Dell to include their trial versions in their windows install. This brings the price down.

Well, I learn something every day. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 27 February 2007 18:08, Doug McGarrett wrote:

This does not hold up, I think--XP goes for $200 or more, Linux goes for about $100, maybe a buck or two less-

I think your estimates are high on both sides..... XP might go for $200 to the end user who buys it in a store but an OEM probably pays $25 or less. And Linux can probably had for free.... I've never paid that high for a boxed version and an OEM doesn't buy a boxed version. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Joachim Schrod wrote:

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

It might be that they have to have more technical expertise to make sure that Linux actually runs on the machine, and they have to cover the research and development costs. Also, the help desk for the new Linux owners.

I think that's more the issue. Any change in processes costs. And that cost must be amortized over the amount of sold systems. Since we will probably have fewer Linux systems, the price per unit is higher. (Remember that Dell has one of the best logistic systems in the world; they surely track costs and their amortization.)

True there are some costs, but its not as much as you might imagine. 1)Dell has long had an internal forum for dell employees using linux. This forum is often found using google when looking for a problem. So they have the expertise in house, if not for every distro, certainly for the ones they sell Suse/Redhat. 2) They already load two different OS's on machines, and have just about always been doing so, except for brief periods of time when say, only XP was sold. They have the images ready to pre-load onto drives, and they knwo what images are required for each machine. They can load drives even before the machine is built since it will all be the same. Aside: (I wonder if this "eats" one of the allowed Vista moves?) 3) The problem is not so much in system construction but in system support. And HERE is where I would expect a mixed bag. As more people start using linux, some will realized that their windows skills only get them so far in the linux world, and will get on the telephone for help. This will cost dell money.. This may be offset by a tendency for more technically astute people to order linux, and Ma and Pa Polyester sticking with windows. This will save Dell money. Dell needs something like SLED, because they do not want to deal with all of their linux users updating every 8 months (or what ever opensuse's current release cycle is). The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Jan Tiggy wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

[SNIP]

...

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Well, if Novell ain't that stupid, then they will offer a competitive fixed price for all 5 years, at least for non business consumers.

Well I would hope so. After all, we here in opensuse land wring the bugs out of that codebase for them. Then they turn around and shrink wrap it with the same support options you get on the web for free. I do see that they appear to be planning to license multimedia for SLED: Quote: SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop supports the following audio file formats (pending licenses): MPEG Apple Audio Codec (aac) Ogg Vorbis (ogg) RealAudio (ram) -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 01:03 -0900, John Andersen wrote:

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Jan Tiggy wrote:

...

John Andersen wrote:

[SNIP]

...

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Well, if Novell ain't that stupid, then they will offer a competitive fixed price for all 5 years, at least for non business consumers.

Well I would hope so. After all, we here in opensuse land wring the bugs out of that codebase for them. Then they turn around and shrink wrap it with the same support options you get on the web for free.

I was under the (mis)impression that SLED10 patches were only good for the time that you are paying support.

I do see that they appear to be planning to license multimedia for SLED: Quote: SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop supports the following audio file formats (pending licenses): MPEG Apple Audio Codec (aac) Ogg Vorbis (ogg) RealAudio (ram)

Well I'd be tempted to buy a copy for that, and it's polish, but I'm not sure about patches. :/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Mike McMullin wrote:

...

...

Well I would hope so. After all, we here in opensuse land wring the bugs out of that codebase for them. Then they turn around and shrink wrap it with the same support options you get on the web for free.

I was under the (mis)impression that SLED10 patches were only good for the time that you are paying support.

Thats exactly what I meant to say. You get the same patches that are free for opensuse, but you only get them for sled if you pay.

After the second or third year, sled is way more expensive than XP.

I guess you've never worked in computer support in the corporate world. Companies often buy IT support. The question becomes what do they get for that money? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 07:11 -0500, James Knott wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Mike McMullin wrote:

...

...

Well I would hope so. After all, we here in opensuse land wring the bugs out of that codebase for them. Then they turn around and shrink wrap it with the same support options you get on the web for free.

I was under the (mis)impression that SLED10 patches were only good for the time that you are paying support.

Thats exactly what I meant to say. You get the same patches that are free for opensuse, but you only get them for sled if you pay.

After the second or third year, sled is way more expensive than XP.

I guess you've never worked in computer support in the corporate world. Companies often buy IT support. The question becomes what do they get for that money?

Unfortunately where Sled10 is concerned it's not a non-business proposition. I wonder if Novell would consider a "home" edition that you buy to use for personal use only and it has patches till end of life. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I'd be very surprised if Novell charged at all. The market cap increase of Novell stock (if this Dell thing proves fruitful, and other spin off), will negate any need to charge Dell (for OS), especially if Dell does most support, all setup and all distribution. They might make some deal to charge some amount up the road, 10$ a copy? etc. But I would really be surprised if Dell ever gives Novell even a dime for any SLED copies sold on a Dell, hell it would even be in Novell's best interest in the beginning to give Dell $$$. Now the extra cost to support SLED via Dell, that could be huge. Somehow Dell has to make a strong statement to a potential Dell/Linux buyer, that there are many peripherals, particularly ones from small companies, with small sales volume, i.e. some no-name mp3 player, gum-pack sized camera, also things like cell phones (that have integration software) that might not work. As for the Dell/Windows package getting subsidy payments for trial software that comes with that setup .... perhaps Fluendo, StarOffice, Win4Lin, Idruna's Photogenics, C'N'R, etc, could do this in the Dell/Linux world to bring price down. -tl On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 00:24 -0900, John Andersen wrote:

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

-- _____________________________________ John Andersen

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jan Tiggy wrote:

tleslie wrote:

...

I'd be very surprised if Novell charged at all. The market cap increase of Novell stock (if this Dell thing proves fruitful, and other spin off), will negate any need to charge Dell (for OS), especially if Dell does most support, all setup and all distribution.

Why should Dell do the support? I think that Novell should do it. In that case there will be no need to charge Dell for anything.

Who do you think does the Windows support on for a Dell? It certainly isn't MS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 28 February 2007 01:24, John Andersen wrote:

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Nonsense, John. Windows Vista costs far more to buy and to use than SuSE SLED. First, SLED will run on most anything that's reasonably current. For Vista, you're going to need a new DirectX 9-compliant 3D 128-MB video card that supports Pixel Shader 2.0 in hardware and WDDM (Windows Device Driver Model) driver. You'll do a lot better, though, with 256MB of RAM. And Vista is turning into a real memory hog, with many reports suggesting you need up to 2GB of ram just to get it to run decently. Any box with 512 MB of ram is going to run SLED just fine. Microsoft does supply its own antivirus and anti-spam software, Windows Live OneCare. But, it will cost your company $50 a desktop per year. SuSE SLED, on the other hand, comes with Clam AV for free. If you want to buy Microsoft Vista, you're going to fork out $299 for the suggested retail price for Windows Vista Business. Even if you get the upgrade version it'll cost you $199. And don't forget you can get a three year subscription to SLED for $125. Cost for Vista over three years? Extra Ram and Upgraded video card $300 AntiVirus and Antispam subscription $150 Microsoft Vista Business Edition $299 Total $749 Cost for SuSE SLED for three years $125 And we haven't even started to compare the costs of the other proprietary software Microsoft wants to sell you, like Microsoft Office. Even if your existing computer has the horsepower to run Vista, which will be doubtful, and you ignore everything except the cost of the operating system, Vista is still twice as expensive as SLED. Bob Smits bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert Smits schrieb:

...

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Nonsense, John. Windows Vista costs far more to buy and to use than SuSE SLED.

First of all he wrote XP not VISTA. - - Windows XP, OEM price 100$ incl. support till 2014. - - SLED 10, price 250 $ incl. support 5 years. Same Hardware! So please feel free to explain a not-versed computer user why he/she should buy SLED! Now concerning Vista. Do you really think that KDE 4 with compiz or a full featured Beryl will run efficient on a average Laptop e.g. Acer Aspire 3003 WLMI? IMO you compare apples and oranges. But that's not the point. The point is that SLED is way to expensive for the consumer market. But has the stability which SUSE lacks. thx Jan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF5wAUN8oPNJi4M6IRAkTzAJ43P1c/EieGgSlNJLWii9m4m8RAIgCdEqZF x4Zbt0dsr6pxflT54ZQA4QA= =KRWX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 March 2007 08:32, Jan Tiggy wrote:

Robert Smits schrieb:

...

...

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Nonsense, John. Windows Vista costs far more to buy and to use than SuSE SLED.

First of all he wrote XP not VISTA.

- Windows XP, OEM price 100$ incl. support till 2014.

For which you get nothing but the OS and a few very rudimentary application programs. Start adding in all the commercial applications you will use before coming up with a total cost of acquisition.

- SLED 10, price 250 $ incl. support 5 years.

Includes a huge portfolio of high-quality applications. I know that not every application area is covered by FOSS software, but all the common, business-oriented "productivity" applications are there plus a formidable range of niche applications.

Same Hardware!

So please feel free to explain a not-versed computer user why he/she should buy SLED!

Total cost of acquisition and ownership are far less for the large majority of users. That and the usual superior security and performance characteristics exhibited by Linux and its application base.

Now concerning Vista. Do you really think that KDE 4 with compiz or a full featured Beryl will run efficient on a average Laptop e.g. Acer Aspire 3003 WLMI?

IMO you compare apples and oranges.

And you, as well.

But that's not the point. The point is that SLED is way to expensive for the consumer market. But has the stability which SUSE lacks.

SLED clearly is not meant for "consumer" (meaning non-business, home users, I gather) uses. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 March 2007 12:52, John Andersen wrote:

On Thursday 01 March 2007, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

I know that not every application area is covered by FOSS software, but all the common, business-oriented "productivity" applications are there plus a formidable range of niche applications.

Not good enough for a large percentage of the market unfortunately.

...

But that's not what I was refuting. Naturally, if Windows is the only platform that supports the applications you run, then talk of alternatives or comparative costs is moot. I was answering the claim about the cost of SLED vs. Windows. For the sizeable population of users for whom both operating systems are technically viable options (i.e., they both could support the work for which the system is to be used), the Windows system is going to cost more. A single productivity app alone--say, DreamWeaver vs. Nvu, Photoshop vs. Gimp, MS Office (or even just Word) vs. OpenOffice.org, etc.--will tip the cost advantage towards the Linux solution. The only real point I was making is that to compare the cost of a bare Windows license with the cost of a SLED support license is not a valid comparison because it ignores the larger cost to Windows users of the applications they'll have to purchase to make their computer useful. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu 01 Mar 2007 20:52, John Andersen wrote:

have customers who run $5000 autocad software inside of vmware on a linux host, but he's a bit of a techno-nerd anyway.

- seems to me, that the moment the specialist program gets running on VMware . . . it becomes wonderfully 'portable' - cloning is a smooth operation : all that is needed is to copy ones vmware directory [ say, /opt/vmware ] to another Drive or Computer - this can be done quickly without needing to enter Serial Numbers, Passwords & such-like . . . it is also handy to be able to take quick 'snapshots' of whole VMware machine. { as a non-techie, it seems to me better to run Windows on a Virtual Machine } friendly greetings -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Randall R Schulz schrieb: Dude you can't be saved. People like do more damage to Linux than Bill Gates had ever done.

SLED clearly is not meant for "consumer" (meaning non-business, home users, I gather) uses.

That's the problem. W/o consumers no drivers and no important apps, w/o that Linux keeps being niche on Desktops. And everybody (beside some admins) working in most of companies will oppose Linux then. Why? Coz they don't KNOW it and thus will give a damn about its security and its so well proclaimed superiority. Btw what do you think? Dell will provide SLED for business clients only? Makes no sense! They sure ain't that stupid! So dude, plz be little bit more realistic. Those yours arguments might work in some business areas but only in some. thx Jan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF52JqN8oPNJi4M6IRAuBNAJ9xMpCtTRwtwaUPTuE+2FTosCOQzgCfY4j0 NqJBsLzX+geJ82bcli6LZGE= =DfEE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 March 2007 17:32, Jan Tiggy wrote:

Robert Smits schrieb:

...

...

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Nonsense, John. Windows Vista costs far more to buy and to use than SuSE SLED.

First of all he wrote XP not VISTA.

- Windows XP, OEM price 100$ incl. support till 2014. - SLED 10, price 250 $ incl. support 5 years.

7 years But then SLED isn't marketed for the home user (yet). If there are OEM deals, who knows what that will do to the price -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Our acquainted friend 'Joachim Schrod' enlightened us thusly:

I think that's more the issue. Any change in processes costs. And that cost must be amortized over the amount of sold systems. Since we will probably have fewer Linux systems, the price per unit is higher.

Well, IMO the problem is more complicated than this. Please keep in mind that the Microsoft licenses are bought by Dell on bulk basis. This means that all agreements do not depend on the amount of actual sold units but the one fixed in such agreement. Thus according to the accounting standards those costs might be taken into account as either fix or variable. Depending on such costs strategy the prise for windows units would have to rise or be kept unchanged. I think the first one is more probable. Finally IMO we'll be lucky if we get the Linux units at the same price as the units delivered with Vista. But for my part I'd pay the price if the hardware suits my needs. thx Jan - -- /NoCTRL (GNU/)Linux registered user # 437835 (goto: http://counter.li.org/) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF5UyGN8oPNJi4M6IRAo0WAJ9zL/x224BLexiAZ/3FZzQ5UZZAqwCdH12O imq6CJNi6RdFGvK4/KXLnfQ= =m7v5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org