|From: Fred A. Miller |Subject: [opensuse] Pre-Installed Linux On Dells Coming!! | |When Michael Dell took back the reins of he company he |founded, one of the first things he did was to launch the |feedback site Dell Idea Storm. |Following up on the recent Slashdot discussion of the early |results of this experiment - an overwhelming expressed desire |for pre-loaded Linux - Dell reports on what it plans to do |with this feedback. Quoting: "[W]e are working with Novell to |certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our |OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision |workstations. [On the question of which distro to choose:] |"[T]here is no single customer preference for a distribution |of Linux... |We want users to have the opportunity to help define the |market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition |to working with Novell, we are also working with other |distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional |certifications across our product line." Dell uses to ship boxes preinstalled with RedHat. License and everything. The problem where they just cloned hd images. So in most cases it just coredumped when you tried to boot it because hardware were to new or not compliant. Not even plain servers worked. Mostly because they use the cheapest of the cheapest components, without assuring linux compliance. -- MortenB -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mandag 26 februar 2007 10:03 skrev John Andersen:

On Sunday 25 February 2007, Morten Bjørnsvik wrote:

...

Not even plain servers worked. Mostly because they use the cheapest of the cheapest components, without assuring linux compliance.

Thats not been my experience.

I've put SLES on a couple different classes of Dell Poweredge servers and I thought they were very will built machines. Everything worked. The SLES was purchased from Dell along with the machines.

But laptops or desktops pre-installed with Linux are what this article deals with, not so much servers.

I just installed 10.2 for an engineering firm with dual 20inch Flat panels onto a Dimension 9200 with a high-end core 2 duo processor. Its an awesome machine, and it all works just fine. In fact it drives the 20 inch monitors better than XP does. Of course I had been thru the ATI knothole a few times.

This is the one thing that will get ATI to clean up its act. Linux users can bitch all day long, and still amount to 1% of the market, but when Mike Dell calls up AMD and tells them he has to have working Linux drivers that will install cleanly under linux you can bet he will get them/

-- _____________________________________ John Andersen

I've installed quite a few DELL PowerEdge 2800 with various SuSE/Linux sw. All have been very easy and works very well. I actually prefer(ed) DELL to IBM due to IBM's lack (!!) of Linux support. I never received the correct drivers for RAIDs and so, all IBM Linux seemed to be ancient RedHat7 (!!!) stuff. I gave up and ordered DELL. FYI: nowadays I use SUN Xfire 2100/2200/4200 boxes with SuSE10.2. Works like a charm. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Verner Kjærsgaard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 February 2007 02:05:58 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_d520?c=us&l= en&s=bsd&cs=04

I tried very hard to select the same components: CPU, memory, graphics card, hard drive, DVD.

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box. I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

I seem to recall there being some argument for this a while back. The pre-loaded machines actually cost the clone manufacturers less, simply because all the drivers are pre-loaded on some sort of image, whereas they need to spend more labor hours on these machines. I'm not sure how valid it is with the PC clone manufactures such as Dell or HP these days, though. All the same, those prices are not unreasonable. I'm still happy with the Monarch Systems I bought for my mom and a few friends. They were very SUSE-friendly. -- kai Free Compean and Ramos http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Monday 26 February 2007 02:05:58 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/latit_d520?c=us&l= en&s=bsd&cs=04

I tried very hard to select the same components: CPU, memory, graphics card, hard drive, DVD.

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box. I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

I seem to recall there being some argument for this a while back. The pre-loaded machines actually cost the clone manufacturers less, simply because all the drivers are pre-loaded on some sort of image, whereas they need to spend more labor hours on these machines.

I don't understand. Why is there any software labor on a box with no installed operating system? -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 James Knott schrieb:

There's a Canadian company that sells notebook computers with Linux or no OS for less than they charge for the same hardware with Windows.

http://www.angelcomputer.com

But those are crap. My old Acer costs the half and is way beter than those. Beside w-lan which needs ndiswrapper, everything in the Acer works out of the box with SUSE 10.1. I need a state-of-the-art laptop working with Linux, core2duo, nvidia 7900, 4 GB RAM, 17", 19xx resolution, Firewire, etc. So I hope Mike will offer some good laptops in the future. I'd even pay more for it than he charges for the same mashines bundled with the Vista-Crap. But IMO it's to early for christmas. ;) thx Jan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF44q8N8oPNJi4M6IRAh3/AJ9hRRwc4OTf9CrIzQvcexB8u0NoIgCfQYo1 0YX8AKZbmgl59Of9g7BFTaQ= =8/lf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 February 2007 20:46, Kai Ponte wrote:

On Monday 26 February 2007 05:32:39 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

...

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box. I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

I seem to recall there being some argument for this a while back. The pre-loaded machines actually cost the clone manufacturers less, simply because all the drivers are pre-loaded on some sort of image, whereas they need to spend more labor hours on these machines.

I don't understand. Why is there any software labor on a box with no installed operating system?

There is no, but hardware for windows is often cheaper as it is using main CPU to run driver instead of built in one. Example is winmodem. It has only signal processor, no CPU.

The articles I had read - which all delt with why Linux doesn't come pre-installed on mass-market systems - had to do with certifying all hardware works when there is no OS loaded.

Now, when I used to mass-market white-box systems in the '90s, I pretty much just ran a DOS-based test floppy on all systems to make sure they worked. I used to burn in all systems for at least 24 hours.

I don't know if PC makers still do this.

No. It is cheaper to replace failed system, as nowadays not many will fail. Apropos cloning, it doesn't matter what is on hard disk when you clone image to disk. You connect it to cloner and after few minutes drive is ready to go. It has more to do with preparation of images for particular hardware, but if they want then distributions will gladly run that job for them. All distro needs is hardware to configure original hard disk for imaging. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 February 2007 9:46:19 pm Kai Ponte wrote:

The articles I had read - which all delt with why Linux doesn't come pre-installed on mass-market systems - had to do with certifying all hardware works when there is no OS loaded.

Now, when I used to mass-market white-box systems in the '90s, I pretty much just ran a DOS-based test floppy on all systems to make sure they worked. I used to burn in all systems for at least 24 hours.

I don't know if PC makers still do this.

MOST don't. Fred -- Remember, a consumer is a customer with no choice. DRM 'manages access' in the same way that jail 'manages freedom.' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2/27/07, Fred A. Miller wrote:

On Monday 26 February 2007 5:05:58 pm Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

I tried very hard to select the same components: CPU, memory, graphics card, hard drive, DVD.

It would cost me a hundred bucks less for the Vista box. I don't think Dell has quite got this worked out yet.

No.....hasn't started yet. But, you're correct.....they've got to get their heads out of the sand.

Fred

Actually, the Win machines come with lower price because they are "subsidized" by the crap load of preinstalled trial versions of Norton, McAfee, AOL, etc. These companies pay Dell to include their trial versions in their windows install. This brings the price down. -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ysgrifennodd James Knott:

There's a Canadian company that sells notebook computers with Linux or no OS for less than they charge for the same hardware with Windows.

http://www.angelcomputer.com

Ditto Transtec in the UK: http://www.transtec.co.uk/GB/E/products/personal_computer/notebooks.html Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 27 February 2007 18:08, Doug McGarrett wrote:

This does not hold up, I think--XP goes for $200 or more, Linux goes for about $100, maybe a buck or two less-

I think your estimates are high on both sides..... XP might go for $200 to the end user who buys it in a store but an OEM probably pays $25 or less. And Linux can probably had for free.... I've never paid that high for a boxed version and an OEM doesn't buy a boxed version. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Joachim Schrod wrote:

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

It might be that they have to have more technical expertise to make sure that Linux actually runs on the machine, and they have to cover the research and development costs. Also, the help desk for the new Linux owners.

I think that's more the issue. Any change in processes costs. And that cost must be amortized over the amount of sold systems. Since we will probably have fewer Linux systems, the price per unit is higher. (Remember that Dell has one of the best logistic systems in the world; they surely track costs and their amortization.)

True there are some costs, but its not as much as you might imagine. 1)Dell has long had an internal forum for dell employees using linux. This forum is often found using google when looking for a problem. So they have the expertise in house, if not for every distro, certainly for the ones they sell Suse/Redhat. 2) They already load two different OS's on machines, and have just about always been doing so, except for brief periods of time when say, only XP was sold. They have the images ready to pre-load onto drives, and they knwo what images are required for each machine. They can load drives even before the machine is built since it will all be the same. Aside: (I wonder if this "eats" one of the allowed Vista moves?) 3) The problem is not so much in system construction but in system support. And HERE is where I would expect a mixed bag. As more people start using linux, some will realized that their windows skills only get them so far in the linux world, and will get on the telephone for help. This will cost dell money.. This may be offset by a tendency for more technically astute people to order linux, and Ma and Pa Polyester sticking with windows. This will save Dell money. Dell needs something like SLED, because they do not want to deal with all of their linux users updating every 8 months (or what ever opensuse's current release cycle is). The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Andersen wrote: [SNIP]

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Well, if Novell ain't that stupid, then they will offer a competitive fixed price for all 5 years, at least for non business consumers. thx Jan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF5U7bN8oPNJi4M6IRAqxJAJ4mitSjQPVSAkaLpEvIKto4q46WjwCeNMjO aeNQD+eXAyZ5znOgFAaeVsw= =zeS2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I'd be very surprised if Novell charged at all. The market cap increase of Novell stock (if this Dell thing proves fruitful, and other spin off), will negate any need to charge Dell (for OS), especially if Dell does most support, all setup and all distribution. They might make some deal to charge some amount up the road, 10$ a copy? etc. But I would really be surprised if Dell ever gives Novell even a dime for any SLED copies sold on a Dell, hell it would even be in Novell's best interest in the beginning to give Dell $$$. Now the extra cost to support SLED via Dell, that could be huge. Somehow Dell has to make a strong statement to a potential Dell/Linux buyer, that there are many peripherals, particularly ones from small companies, with small sales volume, i.e. some no-name mp3 player, gum-pack sized camera, also things like cell phones (that have integration software) that might not work. As for the Dell/Windows package getting subsidy payments for trial software that comes with that setup .... perhaps Fluendo, StarOffice, Win4Lin, Idruna's Photogenics, C'N'R, etc, could do this in the Dell/Linux world to bring price down. -tl On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 00:24 -0900, John Andersen wrote:

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

-- _____________________________________ John Andersen

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jan Tiggy wrote:

tleslie wrote:

...

I'd be very surprised if Novell charged at all. The market cap increase of Novell stock (if this Dell thing proves fruitful, and other spin off), will negate any need to charge Dell (for OS), especially if Dell does most support, all setup and all distribution.

Why should Dell do the support? I think that Novell should do it. In that case there will be no need to charge Dell for anything.

Who do you think does the Windows support on for a Dell? It certainly isn't MS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 01:03 -0900, John Andersen wrote:

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Jan Tiggy wrote:

...

John Andersen wrote:

[SNIP]

...

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Well, if Novell ain't that stupid, then they will offer a competitive fixed price for all 5 years, at least for non business consumers.

Well I would hope so. After all, we here in opensuse land wring the bugs out of that codebase for them. Then they turn around and shrink wrap it with the same support options you get on the web for free.

I was under the (mis)impression that SLED10 patches were only good for the time that you are paying support.

I do see that they appear to be planning to license multimedia for SLED: Quote: SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop supports the following audio file formats (pending licenses): MPEG Apple Audio Codec (aac) Ogg Vorbis (ogg) RealAudio (ram)

Well I'd be tempted to buy a copy for that, and it's polish, but I'm not sure about patches. :/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, tleslie wrote:

The market cap increase of Novell stock (if this Dell thing proves fruitful, and other spin off), will negate any need to charge Dell

Market cap has nothing to do with Novell paying the bill or keeping a revenue stream working. Market Cap is simply stock price times number of shares outstanding, and a raise in the price of shares does nothing for the companies ability to pay its bills. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Robert Smits wrote:

...

The down side of that is SLED with a $50/year price tag will quickly outpace the cost of XP.

Nonsense, John. Windows Vista costs far more to buy and to use than SuSE SLED.

Whoa... Back up there big fella. What were the last two letters of my post that you quoted? -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Thursday 01 March 2007 04:11:18 am James Knott wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Mike McMullin wrote:

...

...

Well I would hope so. After all, we here in opensuse land wring the bugs out of that codebase for them. Then they turn around and shrink wrap it with the same support options you get on the web for free.

I was under the (mis)impression that SLED10 patches were only good for the time that you are paying support.

Thats exactly what I meant to say. You get the same patches that are free for opensuse, but you only get them for sled if you pay.

After the second or third year, sled is way more expensive than XP.

I guess you've never worked in computer support in the corporate world. Companies often buy IT support. The question becomes what do they get for that money?

Jack. We get Jack. I just finished my budget modifications for the '07/08 fiscal year (starting July 1, 2007) and i have $1,305,400 in software maintenance costs. None of it is for OS support and only $50,000 is going to Microsoft for MSDN subscriptions. I am trying to think of more than one vendor on my list who actually provides anything worthwhile for that maintenance and I can't. Unfortunately, the powers that be require me to spend the money. I had to laugh the other day. I heard another departmen is going to the board (bosses) for another $3M for next year for a vendor-developed system that has been five years in the making and isn't even fully operational yet. I did my system in house, which has far more functionality, took just a little over five years from inception to production, and it only cost $950,000. Oh, and I'm now directing my staff to start testing release 9 since January 2, when we turned it on. On topic, however, our Dell and Gateway "servers" are having an issue right now. We've got three of them "down" because of some virus that "keeps reinstalling itself." These are mixed Windows 2000 and 2003 workstations. I simply laughed to the management guys over in the server group and told them to upgrade to SLES. :) -- kai Free Compean and Ramos http://www.grassfire.org/142/petition.asp http://www.perfectreign.com/?q=node/46 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 3/1/07, Jan Tiggy wrote:

But that's not the point. The point is that SLED is way to expensive for the consumer market. But has the stability which SUSE lacks.

yeah, I strongly agree with that ... SLED is too expensive. I doubt that many who use it would pay "retail price" of $50 / year, though. And, if it were bundled by Dell or some other OEM, it *hopefully* would include the multi-media licenses and STILL be quite a bit cheaper than $50/year to the OEM. I wonder if SUSE would require end-users to have personal logins to the update site? Or, perhaps the OEM would have special system-logins, perhaps keyed by mac address, or something? But from my perspective, even with corp accounts, SLED is too expensive ... expecially given that software is not kept up-to-date for the duration of the support period. The software that COMES WITH IT is security updated ... and sometimes feature updates get slipped in. But, there are no version upgrades at all. So, the verison of firefox and OOo and ... everything else would have to be sufficient for 5 years, unless you are willing to use "unsupported" versions (meaning, if there are issues and you call and are willing to pay support, they will not help) Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 March 2007 05:04, John Andersen wrote:

On Wednesday 28 February 2007, Mike McMullin wrote:

...

...

Well I would hope so.  After all, we here in opensuse land wring the bugs out of that codebase for them.  Then they turn around and shrink wrap it with the same support options you get on the web for free.

  I was under the (mis)impression that SLED10 patches were only good for the time that you are paying support.

Thats exactly what I meant to say. You get the same patches that are free for opensuse,

That isn't true. With SLED (and SLES) you get more. For one thing you get support for functionality bugs (in openSUSE you only get security fixes, you have to track factory for other, non-critical problems). And of course in the support there is more than just patches -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 March 2007, Randall R Schulz wrote:

I know that not every application area is covered by FOSS software, but all the common, business-oriented "productivity" applications are there plus a formidable range of niche applications.

Not good enough for a large percentage of the market unfortunately. I don't know of a single business in my customer base that could survive on "common business-oriented productivity applications" included in SLED or opensuse. Maybe its just the customers I choose, but all of them have custom, industry specific software that has to run on windows or you get no warranty or support from the authors. Even if you can get it to run on wine or CrossOver office, support will hang up on you the first time that linux mentioned. I deal with Doctors, Engineers, Insurance, State Government, and Retail sales businesses. All of them are locked into windows by these custom applications. I have customers who run $5000 autocad software inside of vmware on a linux host, but he's a bit of a techno-nerd anyway. Most won't do that. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Thursday 01 March 2007 12:52, John Andersen wrote:

On Thursday 01 March 2007, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

I know that not every application area is covered by FOSS software, but all the common, business-oriented "productivity" applications are there plus a formidable range of niche applications.

Not good enough for a large percentage of the market unfortunately.

...

But that's not what I was refuting. Naturally, if Windows is the only platform that supports the applications you run, then talk of alternatives or comparative costs is moot. I was answering the claim about the cost of SLED vs. Windows. For the sizeable population of users for whom both operating systems are technically viable options (i.e., they both could support the work for which the system is to be used), the Windows system is going to cost more. A single productivity app alone--say, DreamWeaver vs. Nvu, Photoshop vs. Gimp, MS Office (or even just Word) vs. OpenOffice.org, etc.--will tip the cost advantage towards the Linux solution. The only real point I was making is that to compare the cost of a bare Windows license with the cost of a SLED support license is not a valid comparison because it ignores the larger cost to Windows users of the applications they'll have to purchase to make their computer useful. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 March 2007, riccardo35@gmail.com wrote:

On Thu 01 Mar 2007 20:52, John Andersen wrote:

...

have customers who run $5000 autocad software inside of vmware on a linux host, but he's a bit of a techno-nerd anyway.

_____________

- seems to me, that the moment the specialist program gets running on VMware . . . it becomes wonderfully 'portable'

- cloning is a smooth operation : all that is needed is to copy ones vmware directory [ say, /opt/vmware ] to another Drive or Computer

- this can be done quickly without needing to enter Serial Numbers, Passwords & such-like

. . . it is also handy to be able to take quick 'snapshots' of whole VMware machine.

{ as a non-techie, it seems to me better to run Windows on a Virtual Machine }

friendly greetings

Well, that is certainly possible, but in doing that you violate 3 licenses, (at the very minimum). Vmware, Windows, and Autocad. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Randall R Schulz schrieb: Dude you can't be saved. People like do more damage to Linux than Bill Gates had ever done.

SLED clearly is not meant for "consumer" (meaning non-business, home users, I gather) uses.

That's the problem. W/o consumers no drivers and no important apps, w/o that Linux keeps being niche on Desktops. And everybody (beside some admins) working in most of companies will oppose Linux then. Why? Coz they don't KNOW it and thus will give a damn about its security and its so well proclaimed superiority. Btw what do you think? Dell will provide SLED for business clients only? Makes no sense! They sure ain't that stupid! So dude, plz be little bit more realistic. Those yours arguments might work in some business areas but only in some. thx Jan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF52JqN8oPNJi4M6IRAuBNAJ9xMpCtTRwtwaUPTuE+2FTosCOQzgCfY4j0 NqJBsLzX+geJ82bcli6LZGE= =DfEE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 March 2007, Jan Tiggy wrote:

Btw what do you think? Dell will provide SLED for business clients only? Makes no sense! They sure ain't that stupid!

I tend to think Dell will provide Kubuntu for home use. For home users it does every thing you need, its easier to manage (at least with the current updater technology) and you never have to tell the user the root password. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen