[opensuse] zeitgeist

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[opensuse] 12.1 install: activated...

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[opensuse] WT*---isn't this a bit...

Carlos E. R.

24 Jun 2012 24 Jun '12

23:16

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 A recent 12.1 update wants to install this. The description says: +++··················· zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the Zeitgeist backend engine. ···················++- Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux? And why now? I have also seen threads in Ubuntu asking about it: http://askubuntu.com/questions/45548/disabling-zeitgeist - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk/nn7oACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XP/QCglSkZSYBeNQA4qGkKD53x6g0a KEkAn3aRV7UQTedh5b3zStqKt/X0tPix =5QKI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Malcolm

24 Jun 24 Jun

23:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.

The description says:

+++··················· zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine

Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the Zeitgeist backend engine. ···················++-

Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

And why now?

I have also seen threads in Ubuntu asking about it:

http://askubuntu.com/questions/45548/disabling-zeitgeist

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Hi You must have installed something that needs it.....? https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.1 (x86_64) Kernel 3.1.10-1.13-desktop up 8:52, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.07, 0.05 CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:47

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 01:25, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...
A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.

...

You must have installed something that needs it.....?

No, I removed it in the YOU screen that had selected it, and nothing complained that it was a dependency.

...

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist

That page says nothing, only development links. But it contains a link to https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist which says: +++················· Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events (files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people, etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and usage patterns. ·················++- This is intrusive to me, dangerous to have it stored centrally and accessible by software. And, perhaps, may be used by this one: +++················· GNOME Activity Journal (formerly known as GNOME Zeitgeist) is a tool for easily browsing and finding files on your computer. It keeps a chronological journal of all file activity and supports tagging and establishing relationships between groups of files. ·················++-

...

I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.

watch out... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/npwwACgkQIvFNjefEBxodsACeOGQ+KuXmahk01rqCbEgu2QlZ sucAn2kIs69le+5qDpXJh26HnKOeO19g =41Z0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Peter Maffter

25 Jun 25 Jun

08:13

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

...

Von: Malcolm

...

An: opensuse@opensuse.org CC: Gesendet: 1:25 Montag, 25.Juni 2012 Betreff: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." wrote: ...

...
zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine

Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the Zeitgeist backend engine. ···················++-

Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux? ... You must have installed something that needs it.....?

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist

I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.

There are dependencies in my case libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case. So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson

11:11

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Monday 25 June 2012 09:13:50 Peter Maffter wrote:

...

There are dependencies in my case libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ?

We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself. Will -- Will Stephenson | openSUSE Board, openSUSE Boosters Team, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Peter Maffter

11:37

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

...

Von: Will Stephenson An: opensuse@opensuse.org CC: Gesendet: 13:11 Montag, 25.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: Re: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Monday 25 June 2012 09:13:50 Peter Maffter wrote:

...
There are dependencies in my case libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ?

We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself.

Thank you. Please review the whole Zeitgeist stuff. It should be installed only if the user explicitly says so (with the corresponding explanations and warnings). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:51

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 13:11, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself.

Thank you :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/oUNIACgkQIvFNjefEBxo7UQCgvG0sqZ3LudQ+a7IU7FBT1wC+ aDEAnRrGc3fehi76ryM0ezxaPj8+GjPG =V8rX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

26 Jun 26 Jun

12:11

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

Will Stephenson wrote:

...

On Monday 25 June 2012 09:13:50 Peter Maffter wrote:

...
There are dependencies in my case libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ?

We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself.

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist/UseCases "Here follows a list of user interactions that User Interfaces, using Zeitgeist and other software projects (Tracker, Teamgeist, etc) could provide." 1. John Hacker can't remember what he worked on the previous day. He opens the Journal and looks at the files in the Development section, to find out he didn't work at all because it was Sunday and he was tired. John needs to see a doctor if he can't remember facts like these. He may have vascular dementia if he's lucky (it's less aggressive than Alzheimers). But the use case is equally well answered by: (a) John opens his laptop and the resumed session shows him exactly where he stopped work. (b) John switches to his work desktop to see what he was working on (c) John starts his IDE and looks at the mostly recently edited file (or uses the uparrow in the shell, whatever floats your boat) 2. Sara is writing a book and has some files she uses all the time (the office file she's editing, a couple important PDFs with information about the city the book is based in, etc). Thanks to Zeitgeist she can easily find those most used files and open them with a click. (a) Sara uses the recently accessed documents list of those applications. (b) Sara uses Zotero in her browser 3. Tim and Joe are doing research on dinosaurs for a school project. They both set their browser activities to shared and always know what pages the other one is looking at. Using IM they can easily talk about them without having to exchange links. *So zeitgeist is local and user-private is it? Apparently it has options that could be exploited by browser script malware to break both those restrictions.* (a) Tim and Joe use Zotero. 4. Leonor downloaded a file to her desktop. Now she needs some additional information from the website she downloaded it from, but she forgot where that was. She can find the URL using Tracker, but unfortunately the website doesn't have the information she needed anymore. She then looks at the Journal to find out what day she downloaded it, and can easily look up the previous version of the website in the Internet Archive. (a) Leonor uses Zotero (IIRC) 5. Mark starts a conversation with one of his clients. He is surprised to find a collection of resources (files, websites, contacts, etc.) related to the job, and uses it to quickly find information his client asks him for. I don't understand exactly what's meant by this one. But it sounds like a number of already-existing business applications. 6. Prof. Togepi is doing a research on computer usage patterns. He uses Zeitgeist to easily collect data from his test persons. **again, any pretence of local, user-private data goes out the window** Zeitgeist increases the target surface for attacks. 7. Daniel was at a conference a week ago and wants to remember what computer resources (files, websites, contacts, etc.) he used there. He opens the Journal, sets up a location filter and thanks to geolocation data gets a list of everything he wants. Sounds good. I'll buy this one. 8. Evan's boss wants monthly reports of what he has been doing. Writing achievements to a notebook each time they are completed is more worry than doing everything at once when the report is due. Now that he has the Journal he can do this much more easily. (a) find . -mtime -30 9. Mundungus is tired of working and decides he'll finish what he's working on next Monday. He opens the Journal and creates an "activity group" in the area for Monday and uses the "Save currently open resources" option to place everything he's currently using there; he also drags some additional resources (files, websites, contacts, etc.) he used earlier this day into the group box. Once that's done, he can close everything he's doing and focus on watching his favorite lolcat pictures, without worrying about not finding his resources again. Nice idea. Sounds simpler than what I do, which is drop everything into a private wiki. But it also doesn't work for me since I have multiple independent tasks open most of the time, so I don't want to drop all open documents in a single "activity group". I want to drop just those documents that are related to that activity. I guess the zeitgeist folks are single-tasking males :) 10. Bonnie Ughunter wants to document every Ubuntu bug she touched each day on her blog. In stead of doing it manually each time throughout the day, she sets up Zeitgeist to tag each web history item beginning with "bugs.launchpad.net" as "bugs", so she can easily copy them to her blog at the end of the day. There's gotta be a Firefox addin that does this, hasn't there? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David Haller

16:40

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

Hello, On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Will Stephenson wrote:

...
On Monday 25 June 2012 09:13:50 Peter Maffter wrote:

...
There are dependencies in my case libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ?

We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself.

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist/UseCases [..]

I haven't read it all, my uptime's to high now (~22h), but that jumps my face like a starved, crazed 600lb Siberian Tiger on meth and/or crack as utter bullshit(-bingo). "Uhhh, we gotta be cool, too, no?" *GAH*! People who cannot remember what they did last day, can't keep a simple text TODO list, cannot use the "recent files"/"favourites" of their editor or browser should not use linux anyway. Or any computer besides an i<gadget>. Probably not even that. More detailed comments may follow. Oh, and for starting off where you left: there's been "Sessions" and "Suspend/Resume" for a lot of years. Even in mere Windowmanagers like WindowMaker (ok, that restores only the apps, not the files that you had open in those apps, but, hey, that's what recent file lists are for, are they? You might not carry on exactly from where you left off. I'd think it sloppy, to need that feature (ok, notebooks is special there, but that's what suspend/resume is for)). -dnh PS: my (not only TODO) list I use for stuff to "note" is a mere $ wc $file 28825 50746 1549632 *hrhrhr* (there's a few other, specialized or old files ;) And of what I don't take note (or do and forget) and don't remember and don't get reminded of? Well: couldn'a been that important after all, eh? BTW: That's why the *suse.* people here keep saying "file a bug and put ... in as a CC". That way, they get reminded (they get CC'd on everything that changes on that bug). Even I, a mere longtime user like that. -- Photons have mass!!?? I didn't even know they were Catholic... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

j debert

27 Jun 27 Jun

03:35

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 06/26/2012 05:11 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Will Stephenson wrote:

...
On Monday 25 June 2012 09:13:50 Peter Maffter wrote:

...
There are dependencies in my case libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ?

We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself.

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist/UseCases

"Here follows a list of user interactions that User Interfaces, using Zeitgeist and other software projects (Tracker, Teamgeist, etc) could provide."

1. John Hacker can't remember what he worked on the previous day. He opens the Journal and looks at the files in the Development section, to find out he didn't work at all because it was Sunday and he was tired.

[rest of sales pitch & rebuttal redacted.] Ah. So *this* is why no one can live and function without zeitgeist. And this is why it *must* always be installed and running. Isn't it nice to know that someone else cares so much to decide for us what we need and must use. Kind of Big Brother-ish but we all need someone to look after us, guide us, hold our hands, etc., think for us, don't we? Right? Right? Seriously, this is just one of the latest in a line of paternalistic apps that get installed and run by default because we are too stupid to know that we absolutely, desperately need them, too stupid to be on our own, too stupid to know how to manage our own business. And being so stupid, we certainly don't need to approve of installing and using them let alone know of them - someone else will take care of all that for us. But good intentions, however misguided or sincere (or not), can include ulterior motives, hidden agendas. And people wonder why some are suspicious of such things? Isn't anyone tired of this yet? jd -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Mike

14:04

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Tuesday, June 26, 2012 09:35:11 PM j debert wrote:

...

On 06/26/2012 05:11 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:

...
Will Stephenson wrote:

...
On Monday 25 June 2012 09:13:50 Peter Maffter wrote:

...
There are dependencies in my case

libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of

other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ?

We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself.

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist/UseCases

"Here follows a list of user interactions that User Interfaces, using Zeitgeist and other software projects (Tracker, Teamgeist, etc) could provide."

1. John Hacker can't remember what he worked on the previous day. He

opens the Journal and looks at the files in the Development section, to find out he didn't work at all because it was Sunday and he was tired.

[rest of sales pitch & rebuttal redacted.]

Ah. So *this* is why no one can live and function without zeitgeist. And this is why it *must* always be installed and running.

Isn't it nice to know that someone else cares so much to decide for us what we need and must use. Kind of Big Brother-ish but we all need someone to look after us, guide us, hold our hands, etc., think for us, don't we? Right?

Right?

Just like akonadi, nepomuk and strigi. We have to have it. It's good for us. And no way to disable it. Don't need them, want them, or use them. But they run. Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

06:40

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 26/06/12 22:11, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Will Stephenson wrote:

...
On Monday 25 June 2012 09:13:50 Peter Maffter wrote:

...
There are dependencies in my case libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ? We're reviewing this optional dependency, see opensuse-kde@. I don't think it's worth having, myself. https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist/UseCases

And all along I thought MS's reasons for wanting UEFI were funny! "Zeitgeist/UseCases". Really......! :-D [............] BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

25 Jun 25 Jun

09:39

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 25/06/12 09:25, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...
A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.

The description says:

+++··················· zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine

Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the Zeitgeist backend engine. ···················++-

Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

And why now?

I have also seen threads in Ubuntu asking about it:

http://askubuntu.com/questions/45548/disabling-zeitgeist

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Hi You must have installed something that needs it.....?

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist

I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.

Last night I installed 12.2 Beta 2 with KDE desktop and this "Ziegfeld Follies" was installed by default. I didn't ask for anything special to what I normally install but there it is zeitgeist v 0.9.0.1-1.1 (1.3MB big) sitting in my list of installed software. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

24 Jun 24 Jun

23:27

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist Not a keylogger, an activity logger. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:48

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist

Not a keylogger, an activity logger.

I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/np18ACgkQIvFNjefEBxr65wCeN4A4EaXrEPVYa2mz0EdGPc5y s1EAoNxW5fehuBWlKK31qaFx3ghfNbwU =SBap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

j debert

25 Jun 25 Jun

01:47

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

...
https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist

...
Not a keylogger, an activity logger.

I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff. I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes. jd -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

02:35

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 03:47, j debert wrote:

...

On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff.

That's why I'm worried. There is no information here, and very little information upstream. Smells bad, even if it is bona fides. Yes, I have the paranoid hat on tonight. These things have to be carefully explained to avoid rising suspicions, including how to opt out.

...

I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

Perhaps... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/nzoAACgkQIvFNjefEBxpC5QCfbG1uACXYgiRG4D30pYexbrVs oZEAn2ymDWFYDJGdr91TqlJwNVnjHhbZ =R4yB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

j debert

11:19

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 06/24/2012 07:35 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2012-06-25 03:47, j debert wrote:

...
On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff.

That's why I'm worried. There is no information here, and very little information upstream. Smells bad, even if it is bona fides. Yes, I have the paranoid hat on tonight.

These things have to be carefully explained to avoid rising suspicions, including how to opt out.

Poor and misleading descriptions and manpages, sometimes completely wrong, if there's anything at all. And bringing up concerns gets little else but criticisms and useful RTFM comments. Tracker is another current example. Apparently it's been improved to ignore users' config files. This new behaviour isn't in the manpages. I had set up it's config so that it would not run at all but now that it ignores the config files, I've had to chmod a-x all it's executables. That's not standard practice but since no user can control it any more, there's nothing else to do unless one wants to uninstall it and lots of other things as well, or break a bunch of other stuff. Unfortunately, for zeitgeist, there are interdependencies: For example, libphonon depends on zeitgeist and several libs and apps depend on libphonon, such as gtkam. rpm -q --whatrequires is too half-fast to reveal such dependencies. Uninstalling zeitgeist requires removing severl otrher libs and apps as well. I've run into this before when I tried to remove some useless nuisance and found a vast and complex interdependence with lots of critical system components and apps in use, which rpm did not report, that made it's removal impossible. Why there has to be such a web of interdependencies is a mystery.

...

...
I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

Perhaps...

It's easy for problematic things to get themselves lost in the web of interdependencies and suspicious things become impossible to remove without breaking other likely important things. It's this complex interdependence that makes a system untrustworthy and it's security wobbly at best. Complexity makes it easier to break things in ways that are not foreseen or even noticeable. Complexity also makes it easier to insert some malware or apply a malicious delta patch somewhere it won't be noticed and makes it harder to find and remove. It would appear that KISS has left the building. And the country. Probably the planet as well. Perhaps it would be useful to replace existing unwanted apps and libs with versions that have the unwanted "features" stripped out so as to preserve the web of interdependencies as much as possible. jd -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 13:19, j debert wrote:

...

Perhaps it would be useful to replace existing unwanted apps and libs with versions that have the unwanted "features" stripped out so as to preserve the web of interdependencies as much as possible.

Years ago I created fake rpms to keep yast happy. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/oSpkACgkQIvFNjefEBxrADgCfSH5lC3QP9K+h/fNMBwQqzRr9 nvIAoKWFUH/WjyrL/LE947n/jI0axp0l =Ib0l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

26 Jun 26 Jun

12:13

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

j debert wrote:

...

Why there has to be such a web of interdependencies is a mystery.

...

It's easy for problematic things to get themselves lost in the web of interdependencies and suspicious things become impossible to remove without breaking other likely important things. It's this complex interdependence that makes a system untrustworthy and it's security wobbly at best. Complexity makes it easier to break things in ways that are not foreseen or even noticeable. Complexity also makes it easier to insert some malware or apply a malicious delta patch somewhere it won't be noticed and makes it harder to find and remove.

It would appear that KISS has left the building. And the country. Probably the planet as well.

Absolutely! +999 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

25 Jun 25 Jun

03:01

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Sunday 24 June 2012 18:47:26 j debert wrote:

...

On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist

Not a keylogger, an activity logger.

I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff.

I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

Sanity time: I'm no big fan of zeitgeist, I think it is a silly way of working, but there are no privacy or security implications here. There is nothing stored in zeitgeist that isn't already stored in your home directory (which is also where the zeitgeist data gets stored) Your browser maintains a history, has done for several decades. Your office- type apps maintain history, which is how they can list stuff under "recent documents". Your chat programs keep logs. Every shell command you type gets stored in the shell's history, which is how things like arrow-up works You can set your browser to private browsing in recent versions, and you can set most chat clients to not log. I don't know about office programs, I've never seen an option to not store "recent document" type info. If you don't do this already, your home directory is already filled with information about what you do. If you do do this, it also won't get stored in zeitgeist. The whole point of zeitgeist is that you can tell what you were doing, say, last tuesday, and see the documents you were working on, and open them up again and pick up where you left off. I don't personally think that is terribly useful, but it is no more of a privacy concern than any other program on any other operating system that has ever come up with the idea that it could be a good idea to log stuff. Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other machines. That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea by gnome developers about how they think people should work Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

03:14

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 05:01, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Sanity time:

I'm no big fan of zeitgeist, I think it is a silly way of working, but there are no privacy or security implications here. There is nothing stored in zeitgeist that isn't already stored in your home directory (which is also where the zeitgeist data gets stored)

Your browser maintains a history, has done for several decades. Your office- type apps maintain history, which is how they can list stuff under "recent documents". Your chat programs keep logs. Every shell command you type gets stored in the shell's history, which is how things like arrow-up works

You can set your browser to private browsing in recent versions, and you can set most chat clients to not log. I don't know about office programs, I've never seen an option to not store "recent document" type info. If you don't do this already, your home directory is already filled with information about what you do. If you do do this, it also won't get stored in zeitgeist.

The whole point of zeitgeist is that you can tell what you were doing, say, last tuesday, and see the documents you were working on, and open them up again and pick up where you left off. I don't personally think that is terribly useful, but it is no more of a privacy concern than any other program on any other operating system that has ever come up with the idea that it could be a good idea to log stuff.

This is a more reasonable explanation than what their own documentation on the sites say, thanks. However, the little I found says that it also keeps tracks of conversations - it is on the excerpt I copied on a previous post: +++················· Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events (files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people, etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and usage patterns. ·················++-

...

Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other machines. That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea by gnome developers about how they think people should work

Well, it concentrates information that can be queried from a service that is running, and thus, perhaps breakable remotely. And I was not asked prior to installing it, I just happened to read the description and it raised a warning flag. That's my concern. It is suspicious. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/n16AACgkQIvFNjefEBxpQXQCfa53vvdIqYNrR55FpfeONBuCu wX4AoK3zCI845+KbSTWi91WxvFKjoL3+ =pmVr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

03:27

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Monday 25 June 2012 05:14:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

This is a more reasonable explanation than what their own documentation on the sites say, thanks. However, the little I found says that it also keeps tracks of conversations - it is on the excerpt I copied on a previous post:

I mentioned that. Chat programs keep logs. If you use kopete or pidgin and don't disable logging, everything you have ever said or anyone has ever said to you is stored in a text file in your home directory

...

+++················· Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events (files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people, etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and usage patterns. ·················++-

...
Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other machines. That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea by gnome developers about how they think people should work

Well, it concentrates information that can be queried from a service that is running, and thus, perhaps breakable remotely.

That is true for all other applications as well. Zeitgeist is a strictly local service which you can use for your own productivity. This is why it was developed by the gnome people

...

And I was not asked prior to installing it, I just happened to read the description and it raised a warning flag. That's my concern. It is suspicious.

You were asked prior to installing it, which is how you found out that it was about to be installed. If you used zypper from the command line, the description isn't there that is true, but that is the price you pay for using a command line client. The name of the package is there and you are asked to confirm before installing anything. In YaST you get a nice list of everything about to be installed and again, you have to confirm (or at least click 'next') before it gets installed. So when you say you weren't asked, what you really mean is you just click away any and all questions and descriptions you see without looking, and then complain afterwards that you didn't see it But you didn't. You saw it, you had a chance to confirm it and you rejected it. So even that is wrong. You're complaining that you didn't get a chance to do something you did. That's just strange Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball

06:52

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

Anders Johansson schreef:

...

That is true for all other applications as well. Zeitgeist is a strictly local service which you can use for your own productivity. This is why it was developed by the gnome people

...
Anders

It is not so strange these apps get developed at all. With all one does on a pc or laptop these days, and it is not only work. So before you know it, you get distracted, and if you work on an hourly basis, and get paid well, you have to be responsible for the 'real time' you worked on an application or something someone wants to have developed. You know yourself how 'time flies' behind a pc.. This could be an easy way to track down what really happened, without having to do it yourself. My son, who works at an hourly basis, and at home of course, shortly ago needed such an app, to calculate the minutes he had been working on something, and separate f.i., research time from productive time. And about being logged by the government, or spy agencies? that happens anyway. They have their own 'echelon' and more secret other networks. Just live. One can die every day, of any cause, so what does it matter? Being afraid, this short time we are here is not very sane, but that is only imho.. ;-) We have pc's and software for our convenience also i presume. -- Have a nice time, Oddball. OS: Linux 2.6.37.6-0.11-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EEEPC-ROB.site Systeem: openSUSE 11.4 (i586) KDE: 4.6.00 (4.6.0) "release 6" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

10:11

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 25/06/12 13:27, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Monday 25 June 2012 05:14:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
This is a more reasonable explanation than what their own documentation on the sites say, thanks. However, the little I found says that it also keeps tracks of conversations - it is on the excerpt I copied on a previous post: I mentioned that. Chat programs keep logs. If you use kopete or pidgin and don't disable logging, everything you have ever said or anyone has ever said to you is stored in a text file in your home directory

...
+++�� Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events (files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people, etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and usage patterns. ��++-

...
Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other machines. That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea by gnome developers about how they think people should work Well, it concentrates information that can be queried from a service that is running, and thus, perhaps breakable remotely. That is true for all other applications as well. Zeitgeist is a strictly local service which you can use for your own productivity. This is why it was developed by the gnome people

...
And I was not asked prior to installing it, I just happened to read the description and it raised a warning flag. That's my concern. It is suspicious. You were asked prior to installing it, which is how you found out that it was about to be installed. If you used zypper from the command line, the description isn't there that is true, but that is the price you pay for using a command line client. The name of the package is there and you are asked to confirm before installing anything.

Anders, you are not really serious in what you just wrote, are you? "You" go to install an app and you get a menu listing a zillion additional files which are also going to be installed otherwise the dependency requirements are not going to be met. Are you seriously suggesting that the onus is on everyone to read each and every entry and that list of zillion files and agree to install it? [.........] BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

DenverD

10:38

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 06/25/2012 12:11 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Are you seriously suggesting that the onus is on everyone to read each and every entry and that list of zillion files and agree to install it?

of course not everyone...that would be silly. only the *administrator* need pay attention to what is being installed! it is her duty to do so (along with many other security duties).. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

10:45

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 25/06/12 20:38, DenverD wrote:

...

On 06/25/2012 12:11 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Are you seriously suggesting that the onus is on everyone to read each and every entry and that list of zillion files and agree to install it?

of course not everyone...that would be silly.

only the *administrator* need pay attention to what is being installed! it is her duty to do so (along with many other security duties)..

dd

Which, of course, requires the question to be asked: how many copies of openSUSE are installed in commercial organisations (and which are oversighted by "administrators"? And how many copies are installed on systems like mine where I am the only user? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Smartysmart34

10:51

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

Am 25.06.2012 12:38, schrieb DenverD:

...

only the *administrator* need pay attention to what is being installed! it is her duty to do so (along with many other security duties)..

Yeah, right. And therefore one (a distribution / its maintainers) can just fire off spyware and keyloggers with the default repo and not say anything about it?!? It may be one of the key Gnome 3 features but I would have expected some popup (similar to the non-free-flash-popup) upon installation. At least in the quite privacy-focused Linux universe. This somehow reminds me of all the little amendmends to mobile contratcs every customer SHURE has to read EXACTLY. Cheers, Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

j debert

10:23

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 06/24/2012 08:27 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Monday 25 June 2012 05:14:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
This is a more reasonable explanation than what their own documentation on the sites say, thanks. However, the little I found says that it also keeps tracks of conversations - it is on the excerpt I copied on a previous post:

I mentioned that. Chat programs keep logs. If you use kopete or pidgin and don't disable logging, everything you have ever said or anyone has ever said to you is stored in a text file in your home directory

...
+++················· Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events (files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people, etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and usage patterns. ·················++-

...
Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other machines. That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea by gnome developers about how they think people should work

Well, it concentrates information that can be queried from a service that is running, and thus, perhaps breakable remotely.

That is true for all other applications as well. Zeitgeist is a strictly local service which you can use for your own productivity. This is why it was developed by the gnome people

Oh. Yet another productivity tool that not everyone knows about with a misleading description. Zeitgeist makes it's collected data available via D-bus. Where any D-bus app can use it. What access controls exist for D-bus? Who decides which apps can or can not get that info? "All other applications"? Really? Like, say, elm, gpg and vi?

...

...
And I was not asked prior to installing it, I just happened to read the description and it raised a warning flag. That's my concern. It is suspicious.

You were asked prior to installing it, which is how you found out that it was about to be installed. If you used zypper from the command line, the description isn't there that is true, but that is the price you pay for using a command line client. The name of the package is there and you are asked to confirm before installing anything.

Really? "If"? YAST says zeitgeist is to be installed. Period. Nothing else about it. That's really enabling informed decisions, isn't it?

...

In YaST you get a nice list of everything about to be installed and again, you have to confirm (or at least click 'next') before it gets installed.

Some 4000++ files get installed by the system and every single one has a description that accurately explains what it is? No. Not true.

...

So when you say you weren't asked, what you really mean is you just click away any and all questions and descriptions you see without looking, and then complain afterwards that you didn't see it

How often do you inspect every one of the thousands of files to be installed? Every single one every single time, I'm sure. Simply *everyone* does that.

...

But you didn't. You saw it, you had a chance to confirm it and you rejected it. So even that is wrong. You're complaining that you didn't get a chance to do something you did. That's just strange

What's so strange is the all the assumptions and jumping to conclusions. --Wait, that's not strange. Par for the course, actually. But not useful. Except to cut off discussion. jd -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

14:38

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

j debert wrote:

...

Zeitgeist makes it's collected data available via D-bus. Where any D-bus app can use it. What access controls exist for D-bus? Who decides which apps can or can not get that info?

"All other applications"? Really? Like, say, elm, gpg and vi?

Sure: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dbus -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth

26 Jun 26 Jun

11:27

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

Per Jessen wrote:

...

j debert wrote:

...
Zeitgeist makes it's collected data available via D-bus. Where any D-bus app can use it. What access controls exist for D-bus? Who decides which apps can or can not get that info?

"All other applications"? Really? Like, say, elm, gpg and vi?

Sure: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dbus

"Currently the communicating applications are on one computer, or *through unencrypted TCP/IP* suitable for use behind a firewall with shared NFS home directories." No security concerns? FWIW, su - some-other-user; start a GUI app; produces reassuring warnings from the app about not being able to contact the D-Bus daemon :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

25 Jun 25 Jun

15:19

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Monday 25 June 2012 03:23:42 j debert wrote:

...

Oh. Yet another productivity tool that not everyone knows about with a misleading description.

Correct, except I don't know that it's misleading. I understood what it meant when I read it. But it's not a keylogger, it's not spyware, it's not a virus. It is a data collating tool that its developers feel will improve users' productivity

...

Zeitgeist makes it's collected data available via D-bus. Where any D-bus app can use it. What access controls exist for D-bus?

policy-kit. Login authentication. Really, your whole damn system is governed by dbus. If there is a problem with it, you have far greater things to worry about than zeitgeist. If dbus security were broken, you have no privacy at all anymore

...

Who decides which apps can or can not get that info?

"All other applications"? Really? Like, say, elm, gpg and vi?

Per already answered this. To repeat, yes, even they

...

Really? "If"?

YAST says zeitgeist is to be installed. Period. Nothing else about it. That's really enabling informed decisions, isn't it?

No, and if that were true it would be bad. Luckily it's not. Admittedly the description isn't the most detailed in the world, but there is more than just the name. There is also a link to the project page which has a lot more information https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist In case you're interested. I just got it from the YaST package information.

...

How often do you inspect every one of the thousands of files to be installed? Every single one every single time, I'm sure. Simply *everyone* does that.

When I install a package, I get a popup that tells me that in addition to the package I selected manually, some other packages were automatically selected. I look at that list, yes. You are free to ignore that list, to say that it's too much for you, but kindly stop saying it's not there Please note that I'm not defending zeitgeist here. I said before I don't find it especially useful. I'm just defending sanity against uninformed ramblings, like saying YaST doesn't tell you what it installs, that a data collating tool isn't a keylogger, that things happen hidden in the background even though the whole damn thing is open source. Criticize if you want. Suggest that it be removed. But stay sane Anders Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

j debert

27 Jun 27 Jun

04:51

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 06/25/2012 08:19 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Monday 25 June 2012 03:23:42 j debert wrote:

...
Oh. Yet another productivity tool that not everyone knows about with a misleading description.

Correct, except I don't know that it's misleading. I understood what it meant when I read it. But it's not a keylogger, it's not spyware, it's not a virus. It is a data collating tool that its developers feel will improve users' productivity

Says what it means, means what is says? Are you sure? There's no assumptions or inferrals or anything you are reading into it's description? And by reading only it's description, you have a thorough, complete understanding? And the developers feel so strongly that it will improve users' productivity that they managed to get it to be installed and used by default, whether it's wanted or not, without telling anyone - or at least without telling everyone? That doesn't strike you as being at least a bit paternalistic?

...

...
Zeitgeist makes it's collected data available via D-bus. Where any D-bus app can use it. What access controls exist for D-bus?

policy-kit. Login authentication. Really, your whole damn system is governed by dbus. If there is a problem with it, you have far greater things to worry about than zeitgeist. If dbus security were broken, you have no privacy at all anymore

Exactly. One, single point of failure. Where it may not be obvious. One source of extensive user and system data. One ring to bind them, one ring to rule them all. Since PolicyKit was being such a PITA about usurping resources, it was removed. Now what will provide access control?

...

...
YAST says zeitgeist is to be installed. Period. Nothing else about it. That's really enabling informed decisions, isn't it?

No, and if that were true it would be bad. Luckily it's not.

(This is the case for more than a few packages, actually.)

...

Admittedly the description isn't the most detailed in the world, but there is more than just the name. There is also a link to the project page which has a lot more information

https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist

In case you're interested. I just got it from the YaST package

information. Yes, we have all sorts of time to put a puzzle together, track down disparate bits of information, search wikis (using their inbuilt crap search features) and sundry fora, and peruse source to find just enough information to make a barely informed decision -oh, wait. It's installed quietly and the user needs it whether he knows it or not, so just minimal info is needed after all. There is a popular trend of dumping information on wikis, far more often than not without structure, organization or indexing and omitting even manpages and README's from installs and sometimes all other documentation. Many aren't even bothering to add usage or help info to their apps but are just dumping whatever notes they may have into a wiki, without regard to their readability or even relevance. Really helpful. Or so some think. It's actually really lame. How useful is this, for instance, to consult a how-to to get your network running when it's been put on a wiki and you can't read it because your network isn't working because you need to consult a how-to to get your network working? L.A.M.E.

...

...
How often do you inspect every one of the thousands of files to be installed? Every single one every single time, I'm sure. Simply *everyone* does that.

When I install a package, I get a popup that tells me that in addition to the package I selected manually, some other packages were automatically selected. I look at that list, yes.

I said, "...thousands of files..." Remember? jd -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

25 Jun 25 Jun

11:42

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 05:27, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

So when you say you weren't asked, what you really mean is you just click away any and all questions and descriptions you see without looking, and then complain afterwards that you didn't see it

But you didn't. You saw it, you had a chance to confirm it and you rejected it. So even that is wrong. You're complaining that you didn't get a chance to do something you did. That's just strange

Software that raise security/privacy concerns should have at least a more descriptive "description", and better if they warn before installation. Years ago, when you installed "fortune" the installer warned that some of it sayings were not polite or proper. That was caring for us. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/oTpUACgkQIvFNjefEBxq4DACg3QO9y/Gx+3KQ1YbqgTV8kTVw j1gAnj1avlwu2ZkrJ5SEm7iHt1xzQf5a =A0pl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Insomniactoo

12:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Sunday, 24 June 2012 22:01 Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sunday 24 June 2012 18:47:26 j debert wrote:

...
On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist

Not a keylogger, an activity logger.

I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff.

I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

Sanity time:

"Sanity time" is when people *STOP* worrying about intrusive software. Linux is *SUPPOSED* to be transparent and allow us to see what it and the apps it uses are doing. By getting pompous about it, you just tend to turn people off from Linux use that much more than they already are (mostly for no apparent *decent* reasons, but still...). <snip>

...

The whole point of zeitgeist is that you can tell what you were doing, say, last tuesday, and see the documents you were working on, and open them up again and pick up where you left off. I don't personally think that is terribly useful, but it is no more of a privacy concern than any other program on any other operating system that has ever come up with the idea that it could be a good idea to log stuff.

Oh? Does it then 'log' a password that was used somewhere, say on an unimportant thing but that requires a password none-the-less? If so, now there's a logged password, be it unimportant to the *USER* but still should be kept from anyone *but* the user. -- Powered by Slackware Linux 13.37 07:18:38 up 1 day, 20:30, 2 users, load average: 0.67, 0.74, 0.77 All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -Edmund Burke Registered Linux user #214117 at http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

15:05

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Monday 25 June 2012 07:25:46 Insomniactoo wrote:

...

Oh? Does it then 'log' a password that was used somewhere

No. It's open source. Stop guessing Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

10:05

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 25/06/12 11:47, j debert wrote:

...

On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux? https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist Not a keylogger, an activity logger. I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this

On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote: thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff.

I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

jd

Unfortunately, and as uncomfortable as I feel to state this, I consider this to be a fair statement. Pushing the whole openSUSE development onto "the community" and with nobody but "the community" deciding what goes into the distro, it doesn't take much thinking about to imagine that what you suggest may be quite possible. I am not suggesting that it is happening but simply suggesting that it is possible. Afterall, where did the Stuxnet and the Flame worms come from and, more importantly, why did it take some 5+years to discover them? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

11:13

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 08:05:27PM +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 25/06/12 11:47, j debert wrote:

...
On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux? https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist Not a keylogger, an activity logger. I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this

On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote: thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff.

I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

jd

Unfortunately, and as uncomfortable as I feel to state this, I consider this to be a fair statement.

Pushing the whole openSUSE development onto "the community" and with nobody but "the community" deciding what goes into the distro, it doesn't take much thinking about to imagine that what you suggest may be quite possible.

I am not suggesting that it is happening but simply suggesting that it is possible.

Afterall, where did the Stuxnet and the Flame worms come from and, more importantly, why did it take some 5+years to discover them?

Zeitgeist looks more like a desktop wide history storage and tracking. I see no security concerns as long as it is not shared with other users or over the network. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

11:48

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 13:13, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

Zeitgeist looks more like a desktop wide history storage and tracking.

I see no security concerns as long as it is not shared with other users or over the network.

Perhaps, but the description doesn't describe it much. It is software that raises suspicions, at least, so it has to be handled with care by the installer, not with stealthed silence. You see, Firefox has menu entries to disable history, that enables private browsing, that disables cookies... that's care for the users for which tracking is a concern. This software doesn't care. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/oT/oACgkQIvFNjefEBxrhtACfbjIFL1b0oqeFqOC/UCw/vRTG 4Q8AoJ3hvPX2PBGbDeC38ITcqZ1KYxAc =+bEa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13:44

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 25/06/12 21:13, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 08:05:27PM +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux? https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist Not a keylogger, an activity logger. I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this

On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote: thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this, sh--erm, stuff.

I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away. Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

jd Unfortunately, and as uncomfortable as I feel to state this, I consider

On 25/06/12 11:47, j debert wrote: this to be a fair statement.

Pushing the whole openSUSE development onto "the community" and with nobody but "the community" deciding what goes into the distro, it doesn't take much thinking about to imagine that what you suggest may be quite possible.

I am not suggesting that it is happening but simply suggesting that it is possible.

Afterall, where did the Stuxnet and the Flame worms come from and, more importantly, why did it take some 5+years to discover them? Zeitgeist looks more like a desktop wide history storage and tracking.

I see no security concerns as long as it is not shared with other users or over the network.

Ciao, Marcus

Oh gosh, now that has made me feel ever so much better, and gave me goosebumps all over - "as long as it is not shared with other users or over the network." :-) You have a way with words, Marcus, you really do :-D . BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Jon Cosby

01:54

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:48:47 +0200, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

What does an rpm query reveal? rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

02:46

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 03:54, Jon Cosby wrote:

...

rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist

Elanor:~ # rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist no package requires zeitgeist It is not a hard requirement, or YOU would not have allowed me to remove it that easily. It appears in the yast log, but I don't know what that means.

...

2012-06-25 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp] SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410 Keep NOT installed name pattern:office (US_u_(5462)pattern:office-12.1-25.19.1.x86_64(openSUSE-12.1-12.1-1.4))

2012-06-25 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp] SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410 Keep NOT installed name oxygen-icon-theme-large (U__u_(20392)oxygen-icon-theme-large-4.7.2-3.2.1.noarch(repo-oss))

...

2012-06-25 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp] SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410 Keep NOT installed name zeitgeist (U__u_r(21823)zeitgeist-0.8.2-2.1.3.noarch(repo-oss)) 2012-06-25 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp] SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410 Keep NOT installed name patch:openSUSE-2012-335 (UB_u_(36354)patch:openSUSE-2012-335-1.noarch(repo-update))

2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 job: weak erase oxygen-icon-theme-large 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 - job Rule #95034: 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 !oxygen-icon-theme-large-4.7.2-3.2.1.noarch [20392] (w1) 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 next rules: 0 0 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 job: weak erase zeitgeist 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 - job Rule #95035: 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 !zeitgeist-0.8.2-2.1.3.noarch [21823] (w1) 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 next rules: 0 0 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 job: weak erase patch:openSUSE-2012-335 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 - job Rule #95036: 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 !patch:openSUSE-2012-335-1.noarch [36354] (w1) 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 next rules: 0 0

- -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/n0QcACgkQIvFNjefEBxqTEACgy28mYw1MdtkzjQwSCyPdl6Us /n0An1ogIFLg8T2yasolKivwhBSvgnzX =7uBg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

03:02

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 04:46, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2012-06-25 03:54, Jon Cosby wrote:

...
rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist

Elanor:~ # rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist no package requires zeitgeist

It is not a hard requirement, or YOU would not have allowed me to remove it that easily.

I find it in /var/cache/zypp/raw/repo-update/repodata/...-primary.xml.gz: <package type="rpm"> <name>rhythmbox</name> <arch>i586</arch> <version epoch="0" ver="0.13.3" rel="17.4.1"/> <checksum type="sha256" pkgid="YES">a4855e8a15e19f59e739d348dc5d2d81c041a73c26c892561b555fd4a14db481</checksum> <summary>GNOME Music Management Application</summary> <description>Music Management application with support for ripping audio-CD's, playback of Ogg Vorbis and MP3 and burning of CD-ROMs.</description> <packager>http://bugs.opensuse.org</packager> <url>http://www.gnome.org/projects/rhythmbox/</url> <time file="1340009004" build="1339489677"/> <size package="1539003" installed="5121712" archive="5185884"/> <location href="i586/rhythmbox-0.13.3-17.4.1.i586.rpm"/> ... rpm:recommends <file>/usr/bin/rhythmbox</file> So, package rhythmbox recomends it, and that package was installed today according to the history file :-( 2012-06-25 01:08:20|install|rhythmbox|0.13.3-17.4.1|x86_64||repo-update|d1fc2f3ae31cd5dd8ceaf5dffdb82bab2d8250bacb05ac4b07935b7bde9b253e - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/n1NEACgkQIvFNjefEBxoaCwCeLAAdXXosHmMEmGnwhCLC+A7N LY4AoMRHx5xZ6dVRlvMmjOqX9NooEmZE =7+bs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

George Olson

26 Jun 26 Jun

00:03

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 06/25/2012 09:54 AM, Jon Cosby wrote:

...

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:48:47 +0200, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...
I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

What does an rpm query reveal?

rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist

georgeasus@linux-aw90:~> rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist zeitgeist-datahub-0.7.0-2.1.2.x86_64 So I checked datahub: Information for package zeitgeist-datahub: Repository: openSUSE-12.1-Oss Name: zeitgeist-datahub Version: 0.7.0-2.1.2 Arch: x86_64 Vendor: openSUSE Installed: Yes Status: up-to-date Installed Size: 97.0 KiB Summary: Passive logging daemon for Zeitgeist Description: The datahub provides passive plugins which insert events into Zeitgeist. -- G.O. Box #1: 12.1 | KDE 4.8.4 | AMD Phenom IIX4 | 64 | ATI Radeon HD 3300 | 16GB Box #2: 12.1 | KDE 4.8.4 | AMD Athlon X3 | 64 | nVidia C61 GeForce 7025 | 4GB Laptop: 12.1 | KDE 4.8.3 | Core2 Duo T8100 | 64 | Intel 965GM | 4GB RAM learning openSUSE and loving it -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David Haller

12:49

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

Hello, On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, George Olson wrote:

...

On 06/25/2012 09:54 AM, Jon Cosby wrote:

...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:48:47 +0200, "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...
I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

What does an rpm query reveal?

rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist

georgeasus@linux-aw90:~> rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist zeitgeist-datahub-0.7.0-2.1.2.x86_64

$ rpm -q --whatrequires libqzeitgeist0 'libqzeitgeist.so.0()(64bit)' no package requires libqzeitgeist0 kdebase4-runtime-4.7.4-3.11.4.x86_64 $ rpm -ql kdebase4-runtime |grep 'bin/\|\.so'|while read f; do ldd "$f" | grep zeitgeist && echo "$f requires libqzeitgeist"; done libqzeitgeist.so.0 => not found /usr/bin/kactivitymanagerd requires libqzeitgeist Yep, only kactivitymanagerd needs libqzeitgeist, ergo I "broke" the dependency of kdebase4-runtime on libqzeitgeist without any qualms and removed even libqzeitgeist, as I do not use and do not intend to ever use kactivitymanagerd. Generally though, you should not break any dependency on any lib. -dnh -- Q: "Excession is particularly popular because of its copious detail concerning the Ships and Minds of the Culture, its great AIs: their outrageous names, their dangerous senses of humour. Is this what gods would actually be like?" A: "If we're lucky." -- Iain M. Banks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:39

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-26 14:49, David Haller wrote:

...

Yep, only kactivitymanagerd needs libqzeitgeist, ergo I "broke" the dependency of kdebase4-runtime on libqzeitgeist without any qualms and removed even libqzeitgeist, as I do not use and do not intend to ever use kactivitymanagerd.

probably you can remove the service or daemon or whatever it is that collects the info, and leave the linnked libraries in place. Data collection will then not work. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/pu5MACgkQIvFNjefEBxouhwCggDvJL4Ao+I/L2i41cGGPPoIq Z04Amwf/0cWtSqKrJRMhaXbHW86Ocq75 =EFrh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

David Haller

16:14

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

Hello, On Tue, 26 Jun 2012, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2012-06-26 14:49, David Haller wrote:

...
Yep, only kactivitymanagerd needs libqzeitgeist, ergo I "broke" the dependency of kdebase4-runtime on libqzeitgeist without any qualms and removed even libqzeitgeist, as I do not use and do not intend to ever use kactivitymanagerd.

probably you can remove the service or daemon or whatever it is that collects the info, and leave the linnked libraries in place. Data collection will then not work.

Correct. Same goes for phonon, gstreamer, pulseaudio, etc. pp., you usually can ignore dependencies on libs only in special cases like above mentioned, where one special binary you're sure not to want to use needs a lib, but generally, you have to bite and install/keep the shared libs (libphonon*, libgst*, libpulse* etc.). It's intrinsic of linking dynamically. A binary linked dynamically against libfoo requires libfoo to be installed. Period. Else, it wont start (try running /usr/bin/e2fsck without /usr/lib{,64}/libext2fs.so*, /usr/lib{,64}/libcom_err.so* and /usr/lib{,64}/libe2p.so* by e.g. chmodding those libs to 000 temporarily (don't forget to chmod them back to 755 afterwards!)) A statically linked program cares (on current linuxes) only about /lib{,64}/libnss* etc., which I think is, ..., uhhhm, ... ahh, weird. Programs using plugins for various stuff (e.g. xmms) can provide a main binary without requiring wierd libs but still cater for those (xmms doesn't even require libasound(!), but /usr/lib64/xmms/Output/libALSA.so does ;) /usr/lib64/xmms/Output/libALSA.so needs just the X11 libs, libesdout.so there needs libesd + libasound ;) (I have no futher output stuff (arts, nas, pulse, phonon, gstreamer) installed). BTW: has anyone ever gotten arts to stream sound via network? I tried once, and failed, even though it's documented. I then used nas, which worked just as documented. I.e. I had some nas-output capable app running on Box A (in my case: a game using SDL, and SDL_AUDIODRIVER="nas" exported for it) and nasd running on Box B, where the soundcard and speakers were. Anyway, I'm extremely sceptical of all intermediate layers for audio and video, i.e. anything not using alsa and ffmpeg etc. directly. SDL is a (well documented and reasoned for) corner-case, as it specifically targets games and running on e.g. Windows as well[1]. For pulseaudio, there is apparently one feature that is attractive to me, namely being able to have volume set "by app" on the PCM channel. I've yet to try that, at times having e.g. kaffeine (TV) and mplayer (both set to use Alsa directly) playing on PCM at a coupled volume is not ideal. I've yet to be enlightened on the use (not usage!) of phonon and gstreamer. -dnh, in a translating mood, mangling the sigmonsters german output ... [1] and as long as it supports OSS and ALSA for audio directly, I won't care about what else they support ;) -- A dog thinks: They feed me, they care for me, they caress me. They must be gods. A cat thinks: They feed me, they care for me, they caress me. I must be a god. -- Konni Scheller -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

25 Jun 25 Jun

09:49

New subject: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist

On 25/06/12 09:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

...
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux? https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist

Not a keylogger, an activity logger. I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this

On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote: thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.

See my other posts. It got installed last night when I installed 12.2 Beta 2. (BTW, YaST is broken in 12.2 Beta 2 so use zypper.) BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

03:10

On 2012/06/25 01:16 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

...

A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.

I found it installed on several systems lately, even though the only Gnome on my systems is whatever Mozillas require. These may be systems upgraded from before I started doing only minimal installs, putting solver.onlyRequires = true in zypp.conf, setting locks liberally, and only using zypper to install anything. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (21)

Anders Johansson
Basil Chupin
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Dave Howorth
David Haller
DenverD
Felix Miata
George Olson
Insomniactoo
j debert
Jim Henderson
Jon Cosby
Malcolm
Marcus Meissner
Mike
Oddball
Per Jessen
Peter Maffter
Smartysmart34
Will Stephenson