On 06/23/2012 04:54 PM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

2012. június 23. 22:25 napon "Carlos E. R." írta:

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On 2012-06-23 22:13, Istvan Gabor wrote:

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I had to abort installation as I don't want the installer to touch that hard disk at all. I find it very strange that the installer tries to modify any part of any disks without the permission of the user.

It is not modifying your swap, it is using it. There is a difference.

When it's using it, it writes data on it, I suppose; that is modifying its content. That is that I don't want.

Istvan

It's a SWAP partition, used like a Temp Data Storage Area. I am sure the install uses it to unpack packages it needs to do the install, and those it is installing. If you are worried about it, install a second drive, put the swap partition on it for the install, then when finished create a swap on the install drive and remove the swap on the second drive. It's a lot of work, but may accomplish what you want... Will your system when built use the Swap Partition?? -- Sent from my Suse Desktop (12.1) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/24/2012 09:56 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

ka1ifq wrote:

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On 06/23/2012 04:54 PM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

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2012. június 23. 22:25 napon "Carlos E. R." írta:

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On 2012-06-23 22:13, Istvan Gabor wrote:

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I had to abort installation as I don't want the installer to touch that hard disk at all. I find it very strange that the installer tries to modify any part of any disks without the permission of the user.

It is not modifying your swap, it is using it. There is a difference.

When it's using it, it writes data on it, I suppose; that is modifying its content. That is that I don't want.

Istvan

It's a SWAP partition, used like a Temp Data Storage Area. I am sure the install uses it to unpack packages it needs to do the install, and those it is installing.

No, it uses it for swap-space, that's all.

How does it handle opening packages during install, especially when you have low memory? -- Sent from my Suse Desktop (12.1) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/06/23 22:54 (GMT+0200) Istvan Gabor composed:

Carlos E. R. composed:

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Istvan Gabor wrote:

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I had to abort installation as I don't want the installer to touch that hard disk at all. I find it very strange that the installer tries to modify any part of any disks without the permission of the user.

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It is not modifying your swap, it is using it. There is a difference.

When it's using it, it writes data on it, I suppose; that is modifying its content. That is that I don't want.

Any time I run into any kind of system installer that does or tries to do something with a partition that I don't wish done, I abort the installation, and change the partition type (a change of as little as one bit in the partition table) of the subject partition(s) to something incompatible with what the installation program is capable of dealing with, then change it back after installation is complete. For a type 0x82, I'd probably transpose, set it to 0x28. If you have free disk space and you know the installer won't have enough RAM to function without swap, make a swap partition in that space first, which can be deleted later. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-25 13:35, Istvan Gabor wrote:

Thank you Felix and all others for suggestions. The change the partition ID sounds as a good idea. I have unplugged the drives affected.

I don't understand your concern about this, but doesn't matter.

If I know correctly a new modern system does not use swap at all, since the large RAM (4-8 .. GB) makes it unnecessary. Is that correct? Therefore I did not understand why the installer required and insisted to a swap space in my system with 4 GB RAM. In the meantime I have downloaded the normal install DVD, and installed the system from it. I learned that the normal installer works different from the installer of the live CD. It did not insisted to the swap space. Previously I supposed that the two installers works similarly, but they don't. The problem is solved in my case.

A live system as the CD needs more memory than the DVD, so it triggers swapping earlier. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/oUjUACgkQIvFNjefEBxrlHgCaAs8MzA+Xl4vRSTnR8ro4IkIV J9gAnAsKiK1i2Jp+ClzKeOKkXBbiu3lZ =nKY7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/23/2012 4:25 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-06-23 22:13, Istvan Gabor wrote:

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I had to abort installation as I don't want the installer to touch that hard disk at all. I find it very strange that the installer tries to modify any part of any disks without the permission of the user.

It is not modifying your swap, it is using it. There is a difference.

Using swap without ever writing to it, isn't using it. Just because a partition looks and smells like a linux swap partition, even if it IS a linux swap partition, does NOT mean it's automatically OK for anything other than the system that wrote it to mount it. Even if the installer can tell that the the swap does not contain a suspend-to-swap or checkpoint/restart image, it's STILL not ok to touch it without permission because it could be of forensic value. Really there is no excuse to touch any part of any disk without both warning and permission. It doesn't matter if you can think of a reason why it might matter, you simply do not ever touch any data you didn't write yourself without express permission. You don't have to know who's it is or what it's for, you only have to know it's not yours and that's the end of the story. You can read it, and you can make your guesses as to what it looks like, and you can present the user with your proposal, and only after they agree may you write one byte anywhere other than ram. Your (and others) arguments in later posts comparing swap to memory are wrong. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-24 10:31, Per Jessen wrote:

I guess the only real issue is if a system had been suspended to that swap-partition. Otherwise I don't see a problem. Perhaps the installer ought to check to see if swap-space contains a suspended system before it tries to use it.

That state would be a problem for a different reason: the installers scans all partitions, and one that is in suspended state is a problem if it attempts to mount it even read only. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/nPdgACgkQIvFNjefEBxpxmQCg19sANIsuzaBTpd8dyrW3k4Wr k2QAoIZWHEiTuUABSt9AVP5aUwEWsid9 =K+JD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/24/2012 4:31 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Istvan Gabor wrote:

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Hello:

I started to install openSUSE 12.1 from a gnome live CD. The installation started as usual but when I tied to make the partitions and set mount points (in expert partitioning mode as I usually do) I could not change one of the swap mounting. The following message was shown when I tried to edit the given partition:

"Device /dev/sda5 cannot be modified because it contains activated swap that is needed to run the installation."

I had to abort installation as I don't want the installer to touch that hard disk at all.

You could switch to a console and turn off the swap space there. ("swapoff /dev/sda5").

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I find it very strange that the installer tries to modify any part of any disks without the permission of the user.

1. How can I prevent using that swap by the installer?

There is a kernel argument: "addswap" - it might be possible to set it such that no swap is automatically activated.

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2. I find this behavior a serious fault of the installer.

I guess the only real issue is if a system had been suspended to that swap-partition. Otherwise I don't see a problem. Perhaps the installer ought to check to see if swap-space contains a suspended system before it tries to use it.

Not good enough. The installer can not know what somethings value and/or purpose is just by looking at it. It doesn't matter even if there are perfectly identifiable structures in a suspend image and in regular swap to tell them apart. It MUST ask before modifying ANYTHING, or else it's a bad product to be avoided. Suppose I have a compromised, or merely buggy, system and I power it off ungracefully. I then boot up the install media, either to install on some other partition or to use directly as a live media, either way my whole purpose of shutting off the power was to prevent the hacker/virus/rootkit/etc from getting a chance to clean up after itself, or to catch some other process in mid-act, I _need_ that swap image untouched. I want to read/copy/analyze it using the install media or the new system installed to some other partition. But forget the example. Coming up with an example problem just leads to the false idea that you can call the example contrived and therefore unlikely and therefore unimportant or invalid. An example problem isn't necessary. All that's necessary is the knowledge that if you didn't write a given byte yourself, or receive express, explicit, permission to write it, then it's not "yours" and you can't touch it. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

Diferent requirements, different design parameters. The install media autodetects swap and uses it, and that's a known feature: a live needs memory, and installation can fail if not enough memory is available: thus add swap.

It wasn't known to me, for example. And it's not what I would have expected. I'm with Brian, there is a general principle here. If you didn't write it yourself, ask permission before overwriting it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Diferent requirements, different design parameters. The install media autodetects swap and uses it, and that's a known feature: a live needs memory, and installation can fail if not enough memory is available: thus add swap.

It wasn't known to me, for example. And it's not what I would have expected. I'm with Brian, there is a general principle here. If you didn't write it yourself, ask permission before overwriting it.

I think(!) YaST has been automatically activating swap-space for quite some time, probably back to SuSE Linux 8. I seem to remember a pop-up asking about permission though, but I haven't seen that for a long time. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

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I think(!) YaST has been automatically activating swap-space for quite some time, probably back to SuSE Linux 8. I seem to remember a pop-up asking about permission though, but I haven't seen that for a long time.

YaST proposes a configuration at install-time and lists the swap partitions it intends to use. You have the opportunity to tell it no thanks.

Yes, but that is for the system-to-be-installed, not the running installation system. I really can't be certain, but I remember something about YaST warning the user that there isn't enough memory and if it's okay to activate swap-parition so-and-so. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Wednesday, 2012-06-27 at 15:24 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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I think(!) YaST has been automatically activating swap-space for quite some time, probably back to SuSE Linux 8. I seem to remember a pop-up asking about permission though, but I haven't seen that for a long time.

yast might, but the OP used a live CD, and these need much more memory.

Good point, I hadn't noticed it was about a Live CD. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org