[opensuse] mailing list issues

older
[SLE] Help! Kmail folder list does...

houghi

3 Jun 2006 3 Jun '06

19:10

Not wanting to highjack a thread, I start a new one. People having issues with the wording of my standard reply, please tell me *here* what it should be. As I believe this is (unfortunatly) on-topic here, I won't reply to any personal mails concerning this subject. What else can we do then point out each time we see a technical discussion starting? My idea is to kill this list, as it already is lost and make a new one: opensuse-community. Anybody other (better) ideas? houghi -- This openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. All discussion about the community is welcome. If you have a techical question just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

jdd

3 Jun 3 Jun

19:29

houghi wrote:

...

Not wanting to highjack a thread, I start a new one. People having issues with the wording of my standard reply, please tell me *here* what it should be. As I believe this is (unfortunatly) on-topic here, I won't reply to any personal mails concerning this subject.

What else can we do then point out each time we see a technical discussion starting? My idea is to kill this list, as it already is lost and make a new one: opensuse-community.

Anybody other (better) ideas?

houghi

I don't think changing the list could do any good, people will write anyway (or steal the others openSUSE lists). solutions: (?) 1) On this respect, a news group is much more adequate. on a news group, it's easy for a moderator to cancel early offending messages before it go to most user, it's also easy to anybody to correct an error on a mailing list, any OT thread can go on any long time. on a news group, it's easy to kill it. I'm ready to be part of any moderator group. 2) May be also if the long awaited forum went up, it could receive most of this unwanted traffic. I don't know if it's easy to moderate such a forum (I own one but has never to cancel anything) Please, don't start a new flame on the news/forum subject. I want only to mention them to see if this could a solution to the very problem mentionned here. 3) anyway, there are not so many oddening posts, may be we can live with them :-) 4) we could make the subscription to the mailing list moderated. A mail from the moderator to the new member about the non technical subject could have an effect and it could be possible to ban any offending people. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Renegade Penguin

19:53

I think this is a better solution that JDD has proposed. Houghi gets all upset when valid constructive criticism is made, insisting he is right, makes demands that all correspondence be directly on this list, etc. This list is getting too large for fairly effective self-policing (as well as others). JDD seems to have some good qualifications for being a moderator. Who at Novell would be contacted about this? And I agree with 3 - someone having a full signature AND posting EVERY time they see an infraction is getting very old. RP jdd wrote:

...

I don't think changing the list could do any good, people will write anyway (or steal the others openSUSE lists).

solutions: (?)

1) On this respect, a news group is much more adequate.

on a news group, it's easy for a moderator to cancel early offending messages before it go to most user, it's also easy to anybody to correct an error

on a mailing list, any OT thread can go on any long time. on a news group, it's easy to kill it.

I'm ready to be part of any moderator group.

2) May be also if the long awaited forum went up, it could receive most of this unwanted traffic. I don't know if it's easy to moderate such a forum (I own one but has never to cancel anything)

Please, don't start a new flame on the news/forum subject. I want only to mention them to see if this could a solution to the very problem mentionned here.

3) anyway, there are not so many oddening posts, may be we can live with them :-)

4) we could make the subscription to the mailing list moderated. A mail from the moderator to the new member about the non technical subject could have an effect and it could be possible to ban any offending people.

jdd

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

houghi

20:03

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 12:53:05PM -0700, Renegade Penguin wrote: Please do not toppost.

...

I think this is a better solution that JDD has proposed.

Houghi gets all upset when valid constructive criticism is made, insisting he is right, makes demands that all correspondence be directly on this list, etc.

I do not demand anything. I just stat my opinion and say that I won't dicuss it in private mail. <snip>

...

Who at Novell would be contacted about this?

The people reading here.

...

And I agree with 3 - someone having a full signature AND posting EVERY time they see an infraction is getting very old.

So you say just to give up and let technical postings be allowed. The best way not to see me post these things is not to have these infractions. houghi -- This openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. All discussion about the community is welcome. If you have a techical question just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

jdd

20:27

houghi wrote:

...

...
And I agree with 3 - someone having a full signature AND posting EVERY time they see an infraction is getting very old.

So you say just to give up and let technical postings be allowed. The best way not to see me post these things is not to have these infractions.

actually it's not what I intended by 3). I think you make a good job making these advices. May be just you should not apologise :-() and just say "please go to suse-linux-e for technical questions" with a link to the openSUSE wiki page. I know you don't want to offend people, but doing so you seem weak when you are right :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

houghi

20:38

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:27:50PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

I think you make a good job making these advices. May be just you should not apologise :-() and just say "please go to suse-linux-e for technical questions" with a link to the openSUSE wiki page.

I know you don't want to offend people, but doing so you seem weak when you are right :-)

I re-read it several times just now and I do not see any appology. Partly because I do not feel that I have anything to appologize about. :-/ What you could also mean by point 3 is that the postings are so seldom that replies to point people in the right direction will also be very seldom. houghi -- This openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. All discussion about the community is welcome. If you have a techical question just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Scott Kitterman

20:48

When I've been in similar situation on other lists, I've tried an approach along the lines of: I think the answer to your question may be X, but the appropriate list for that kind of discussion is _______. You'll have more luck if you follow up there. That points the person in the right direction, but is less abrupt and makes them feel like they are getting some help and not just a push off to somewhere else. It's a middle ground that I've seen work well both to keep lists on topic and to make people feel welcome. Scott K --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

houghi

21:03

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 04:48:07PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:

...

It's a middle ground that I've seen work well both to keep lists on topic and to make people feel welcome.

Unfortunatly I have see it fail on lists. People just kept posting more and more, because their questions where answerd anyway. I asume it is only logic that IF people give an answer that they point out the correct place as well. The only reason I can think of why people keep posting, even when asked not to do, is because they are getting answers. If you tell me the pub is closed and you keep giving me beer, I won't leave. I only leave when I can get (or take) any more beer. ;-) Other people look and see that questions are answerd anyway, so these people also have no need to go elsewhere. That at least is my experience. houghi -- This openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. All discussion about the community is welcome. If you have a techical question just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Renegade Penguin

21:14

Scott is right. Houghi, quit trying to defend yourself here. Just try it his way for a while. That is MY experience - I side with Scott. RP houghi wrote:

...

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 04:48:07PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:

...
It's a middle ground that I've seen work well both to keep lists on topic and to make people feel welcome.

Unfortunatly I have see it fail on lists. People just kept posting more and more, because their questions where answerd anyway. I asume it is only logic that IF people give an answer that they point out the correct place as well.

The only reason I can think of why people keep posting, even when asked not to do, is because they are getting answers. If you tell me the pub is closed and you keep giving me beer, I won't leave. I only leave when I can get (or take) any more beer. ;-)

Other people look and see that questions are answerd anyway, so these people also have no need to go elsewhere. That at least is my experience.

houghi

houghi

21:45

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 02:14:55PM -0700, Renegade Penguin wrote: <snip> <plonk> houghi -- This openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. All discussion about the community is welcome. If you have a techical question just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Carl-Daniel Hailfinger

23:13

Renegade Penguin wrote:

...

Scott is right. Houghi, quit trying to defend yourself here. Just try it his way for a while.

That is MY experience - I side with Scott.

You obviously haven't been on this list for a long time. Houghi's way is the only way that has worked here and I'm thankful he does this task. Feel free to answer all questions in private mail, but don't clutter up the list with them. Thanks. Regards, Carl-Daniel --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Jerry Westrick

4 Jun 4 Jun

03:02

On Saturday 03 June 2006 23:14, Renegade Penguin wrote:

...

Scott is right. Houghi, quit trying to defend yourself here. Just try it his way for a while.

That is MY experience - I side with Scott.

RP

houghi wrote:

...
On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 04:48:07PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:

...
It's a middle ground that I've seen work well both to keep lists on topic and to make people feel welcome.

Unfortunatly I have see it fail on lists. People just kept posting more and more, because their questions where answerd anyway. I asume it is only logic that IF people give an answer that they point out the correct place as well.

The only reason I can think of why people keep posting, even when asked not to do, is because they are getting answers. If you tell me the pub is closed and you keep giving me beer, I won't leave. I only leave when I can get (or take) any more beer. ;-)

Other people look and see that questions are answerd anyway, so these people also have no need to go elsewhere. That at least is my experience.

houghi

I agree, houghi's way is the only way that has worked. (IMHO the only one that will work here.). on the other hand: I agree people get the feeling they are being pushed off. I agree that the feeling is not nice, as I personally experienced it last week. Maybe we can cross post the users message for them? with a note like that is a lot shorter? Something like: In order to get help for you, we posted this message on the SUSE-E mailing list where the appropriate technical expertise is available to help you. Please look for the answers to this post at _suse-e_. (this is supposed to be a link of some sort.) ie. don't give the person the feeling he/she did something wrong. instead give the person we went out of our way to help them.... ==== I also agree with houghi's suggestion that we close this list infavor of a list named something like opensuse-community. I think that will help many of the "wrong posters" not to get the wrong list in the first place. Jerry P.S. I really think that giving answers on this list will kill it... my vote is NO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

houghi

00:38

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 05:02:32AM +0200, Jerry Westrick wrote:

...

Maybe we can cross post the users message for them? with a note like that is a lot shorter? Something like:

I would like that. I think however it is not possible to do it like in Newsgroup where you do a crosspost and then set the F-up to the list of your prefrence so that answer would get to the other list and not the the original list anymore. If there is a way to do that with Email, please let me know, because that would be a great solution. I am afraid what would happen now is that you will depend on other people to cut the crossposting. Not everybody would know how to do that or understand why. Again, if possible, please let me know, because that would be a great way to do it. houghi -- This openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. All discussion about the community is welcome. If you have a techical question just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Jerry Westrick

04:40

On Sunday 04 June 2006 02:38, houghi wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 05:02:32AM +0200, Jerry Westrick wrote:

...
Maybe we can cross post the users message for them? with a note like that is a lot shorter? Something like:

I would like that. I think however it is not possible to do it like in Newsgroup where you do a crosspost and then set the F-up to the list of your prefrence so that answer would get to the other list and not the the original list anymore.

If there is a way to do that with Email, please let me know, because that would be a great solution. I am afraid what would happen now is that you will depend on other people to cut the crossposting. Not everybody would know how to do that or understand why.

Again, if possible, please let me know, because that would be a great way to do it.

houghi

I'm not sure what you mean, but with crossposting in emails, I was thinking about sending the responce TO:suse-linux-e. and CC:opensuse(-community) I didn't really think about what would happen when a reply-to-list is done on that message.... Hmmm... anybody know what happens here? Jerry --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Rasmus Plewe

10:55

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 02:38:25AM +0200, houghi wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 04, 2006 at 05:02:32AM +0200, Jerry Westrick wrote:

...
Maybe we can cross post the users message for them? with a note like that is a lot shorter? Something like:

I would like that. I think however it is not possible to do it like in Newsgroup where you do a crosspost and then set the F-up to the list of your prefrence so that answer would get to the other list and not the the original list anymore.

If there is a way to do that with Email, please let me know, because that would be a great solution. I am afraid what would happen now is that you will depend on other people to cut the crossposting. Not everybody would know how to do that or understand why.

Use CC: (for crosspost) and the Reply-To: header (for follow-up) to the new list. But that does not solve the problem that the user is not immediately subscribed to that list, and his question answered before he subscribes himself (unlike usenet, you don't get the recent history of the list upon subscription). Rasmus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

jdd

11:04

Rasmus Plewe wrote:

...

immediately subscribed to that list, and his question answered before he subscribes himself (unlike usenet, you don't get the recent history of the list upon subscription).

so news should be better for our use. notice however that lists.suse.com gives the content, but one can't answer from there jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Peter Flodin

05:47

On 6/4/06, jdd wrote:

...

houghi wrote:

...
What else can we do then point out each time we see a technical discussion starting? My idea is to kill this list, as it already is lost and make a new one: opensuse-community.

...

I don't think changing the list could do any good, people will write anyway (or steal the others openSUSE lists).

I disagree, I actually think this is one of Houghi's better ideas. The problem with this list is that it is the default list, it is the list everybody joins. Newbies think they just downloaded openSUSE so it must be the right list to ask questions about it :-) The off-topic post are very low on the specific list like opensuse-wiki and opensuse-factory. So my vote is that if we want a list to only discuss community lets create opensuse-community@opensuse.org and then delete opensuse@opensuse.org Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Rajko M

06:00

Peter Flodin wrote:

...

On 6/4/06, jdd wrote:

...
houghi wrote:

...
What else can we do then point out each time we see a technical discussion starting? My idea is to kill this list, as it already is lost and make a new one: opensuse-community.

...
I don't think changing the list could do any good, people will write anyway (or steal the others openSUSE lists).

I disagree, I actually think this is one of Houghi's better ideas.

Yes.

...

The problem with this list is that it is the default list, it is the list everybody joins. Newbies think they just downloaded openSUSE so it must be the right list to ask questions about it :-)

The off-topic post are very low on the specific list like opensuse-wiki and opensuse-factory.

Agree.

...

So my vote is that if we want a list to only discuss community lets create opensuse-community@opensuse.org and then delete opensuse@opensuse.org

Why to delete? Let it do what newbies think it should do, answer the questions. There will be no harm if loads of messages on suselinux-e will be split. Here can come to some positive effect that opensuse will answer newbie kind of questions and suselinux-e left to deal with more complex answers, as it probably should. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

jdd

10:37

Peter Flodin wrote:

...

So my vote is that if we want a list to only discuss community lets create opensuse-community@opensuse.org and then delete opensuse@opensuse.org

anyway it can do no harm, try it :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Rajko M

05:28

houghi wrote:

...

Not wanting to highjack a thread, I start a new one. People having issues with the wording of my standard reply, please tell me *here* what it should be. As I believe this is (unfortunatly) on-topic here, I won't reply to any personal mails concerning this subject.

What else can we do then point out each time we see a technical discussion starting? My idea is to kill this list, as it already is lost and make a new one: opensuse-community.

Anybody other (better) ideas?

houghi

How to kill the list? Not participating? Someone will post and someone will answer, so list will not die unless decision makers remove it. IMHO, in the beginning this list was intended for community related communication, but presence of technical questions shows that many people think that this is the right place. Why it works this way? By simple logic applied in other places, SUSE Linux will be discussed on suselinux mailing list, opensuse on opensuse mailing list. Everyone takes that openSUSE is some different kind of SUSE linux, like Fedora Core is different kind of Redhat. What I found on opensuse.org I have to talk about in opensuse (mailing list, forum, news), not suse mailing list. Tomato forum about tomatoes, potato about potatoes. We all use that naming schema everywhere we go, not only in the Internet, so I can't blame people that come here with all kind of questions. Although I support you in your efforts to keep things organized, something that is making perpetual confusion, as it contradicts to common sense, should be adjusted to what most expects to be. Leave this list to all opensuse questions, and make opensuse-chat for community related. I bet that no one will ever try to ask how to solve technical problem in chat forum, nor on chat list. The name "community" is still to much like a magnet for technical questions, because where I would go to ask if I have problem with Linux that I obtained on opensuse.org, of course to guys that know a lot about. Where I would look for those guys, in their community. The name "chat" is not restrictive and allows all kinds of non-technical discussions. If someone ask question that is not commonly understood under chat, like how to solve the problem, anyone can send "offender" to proper list in fast, dry, non-offending way like: "The better place to ask about problems with SUSE Linux downloaded from opensuse.org would be opensuse mailing list. How to subscribe to it is explained on http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate. Have a fun." No one will complain if people in chat forum/list don't feel ready to answer technical stuff, even if the name tells that the guy is expert. The distinction between openSUSE community (not SUSE community) and SUSE Linux (not openSUSE Linux) is unusual and makes confusion from day one. This list is loaded with threads that explain the difference, and despite all efforts people are still using reasoning that is more common in the net. BTW, good example how proper naming can help, there is no many that go to opensuse-wiki to ask for technicalities. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Kenneth Aar, Grafikern.no

09:45

houghi wrote:

...

Not wanting to highjack a thread, I start a new one. People having issues with the wording of my standard reply, please tell me *here* what it should be. As I believe this is (unfortunatly) on-topic here, I won't reply to any personal mails concerning this subject.

What else can we do then point out each time we see a technical discussion starting? My idea is to kill this list, as it already is lost and make a new one: opensuse-community.

Anybody other (better) ideas? To answer your original post:

It think it should be shorter. With no apologies. E.G.: --- Hi This is intend to get you the best support for now and in the future. The mailinglist for technical help is on *suse-linux-e*, the openSUSE mailinglist is about the community. Just subscribe via this email address: suse-linux-e-subscribe@suse.com, post your original email again there, and you will get a straight answer. HTH ... Although I would like the Opensuse-list to be merged with suse-linux-e and be about technical questions. Since it's more logical for newbies. Opensuse-ideology, opensuse-discussion or opensuse-beyond-the-thunderdome should replace this one. As Community doesn't say to much, about what's going on here. To Houghi: Keep up the good work! To everyone: Maybe you should try to write more like a Zen master, even when people are calling you a f**king idiot. It will only reflect more badly on them, in the mean time strengthening your point. My two øre(Norwegian cents) -- Regards Kenneth Aar --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-help@opensuse.org

Kenneth Aar, Grafikern.no

12:53

houghi wrote:

...

Not wanting to highjack a thread, I start a new one. People having issues with the wording of my standard reply, please tell me *here* what it should be. As I believe this is (unfortunatly) on-topic here, I won't reply to any personal mails concerning this subject.

What else can we do then point out each time we see a technical discussion starting? My idea is to kill this list, as it already is lost and make a new one: opensuse-community.

Anybody other (better) ideas? To answer your original post:

6540

Age (days ago)

6541

Last active (days ago)

List overview

Download

21 comments

10 participants

participants (10)

Carl-Daniel Hailfinger
houghi
jdd
Jerry Westrick
Kenneth Aar, Grafikern.no
Peter Flodin
Rajko M
Rasmus Plewe
Renegade Penguin
Scott Kitterman