[opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

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Boyd Lynn Gerber

14 Aug 2009 14 Aug '09

16:50

Hello, With the annoucement today. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group... The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model fedora->centos->RHEL but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late. My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc. WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct) 1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients" Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention. 2. Many resent replies from Novell people (although it is just their opinion) through the various mediums treat SMB's and their staff as idiots. It comes off as if it comes from arrogant 20-something know it alls dictating what the community has to do. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)? Solution: Better communitcation. Some signs of improvement, but a strong feeling of being dictated, rather than lead" 3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures." Solution: This could be solved by openSLE (A openSUSE centos like clone as refered in the above example). 4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?" Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available. At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?" People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell. Thanks for reading this. I propose using the Freenode IRC #opensuse-server channel and either of the lists in the CC. to further discuss this idea and form a group. Thank you, -- Boyd Gerber 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

Peter Nikolic

14 Aug 14 Aug

19:30

On Friday 14 Aug 2009 17:50:13 Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

Hello,

With the annoucement today.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html

that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group...

The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model

fedora->centos->RHEL

but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED

This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late.

My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc.

WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct)

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention.

2. Many resent replies from Novell people (although it is just their opinion) through the various mediums treat SMB's and their staff as idiots. It comes off as if it comes from arrogant 20-something know it alls dictating what the community has to do. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)?

Solution: Better communitcation. Some signs of improvement, but a strong feeling of being dictated, rather than lead"

3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures."

Solution: This could be solved by openSLE (A openSUSE centos like clone as refered in the above example).

4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available.

At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?" People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell.

Thanks for reading this. I propose using the Freenode IRC #opensuse-server channel and either of the lists in the CC. to further discuss this idea and form a group.

Thank you,

+1 Count me in this is what i have been on about for quite a while now Pete .

Gary Baribault

16 Aug 16 Aug

20:50

New subject: [opensuse] Re: [opensuse-announce] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

One of the problems with what you are asking for is that CentOS is not between Fedora and RedHat, but is a clone of RedHat. Red Hat does not support it, and if anything it comes after RHEL. CentOS is a re-compile of the source for REHL. Once a patch comes out for REHL, then the CentOS team issues the same patch. Any team that would like to do the same thing is free to do so, but all their making available is a clone of Novell's SUSE, no better and no worse, with absolutely no support from Novell, ,like CentOS has no support from RedHat. Gary Baribault Courriel: gary@baribault.net GPG Key: 0xFA812835 GPG Fingerprint: 8597 4D3D 3C3D 4247 077C 9FF9 E412 CAC4 FA81 2835 Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

Hello,

With the annoucement today.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html

that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group...

The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model

fedora->centos->RHEL

but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED

This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late.

My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc.

WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct)

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention.

2. Many resent replies from Novell people (although it is just their opinion) through the various mediums treat SMB's and their staff as idiots. It comes off as if it comes from arrogant 20-something know it alls dictating what the community has to do. To quote some CEO's and COO... "The SUSE/Novell people act like a bunch arrogant 20-something ... that treat us and are staff like idiots.) SMB's have to contribute more time/money/resources to keep openSUSE going. (Why should we when we are treated like idiots)?

Solution: Better communitcation. Some signs of improvement, but a strong feeling of being dictated, rather than lead"

3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures."

Solution: This could be solved by openSLE (A openSUSE centos like clone as refered in the above example).

4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro. The community is not doing enough or is too small." What happens is or feels like the various groups that are part of the community are not fully trusted. What I see/feel/hear is that globally the openSUSE distro is moving to the bottom of the Linux Distro Heap. I am being asked to move to CentOS as it has a longer support window. "Having to update my OS every 2 years is a real pain in the butt! Now it is moving to a 18 month window. I really need to look at something else that meets my needs" Business like to stay as long as they are able to the release. "If it aint broke don't fix it!" "We really need a fall back position. What are your recommendations? Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries? What about Ubunto, Debian, Fedora/CentOS, or Solaris, BSDs?"

Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available.

At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?" People using the fedora->CentOS->RHEL talk of how many of the business they support move this route to become RHEL customers. I think we (being the SUSE prefered" really would benefit from a similar path. That is why I am trying to somehow get a group organized. So we are able to have our voice heard at the higher levels of Novell.

Thanks for reading this. I propose using the Freenode IRC #opensuse-server channel and either of the lists in the CC. to further discuss this idea and form a group.

Thank you,

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

18 Aug 18 Aug

05:17

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

Hello,

With the annoucement today.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-08/msg00009.html

that openSUSE is on a 18 month cycle, maybe we need to form a group...

The thought is that a possible out come of this group maybe an openSLE which would be like this model

fedora->centos->RHEL

but for SUSE -SLES openSUSE->openSLE->SLE-| -SLED

This is from the end of the project meeting. I hope the boat has not sailed already and it is too late.

My thoughts from what I have heard from talks with clients, IRC chats, and misc.

WARNING (This is my honest view/perception and is not politically correct)

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

Solution: We form a group that combined has equivelant $$$ behind it to warrent attention.

[Rest pruned] Alright everybody - everybody ignore this message from Boyd, bury your heads in the sand (therefore showing how big of an arse you have) and pretend that all is perfect with openSUSE! (BTW, who IS running openSUSE now? It was Andreas Jaeger until recently). And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!). And in unison with Peter I now state "+1 more". BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

07:08

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!).

Check the opensuse-project list. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

09:25

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...
And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!).

Check the opensuse-project list.

Never heard of it (opensuse-project) but I will check it out at some stage. Thanks for the hint, Per. Nevertheless, the original message was posted in this forum and the only response was from Peter. Any responses should therefore have been also posted here, right? BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

09:39

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...
Basil Chupin wrote:

...
And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!).

Check the opensuse-project list.

Never heard of it (opensuse-project) but I will check it out at some stage. Thanks for the hint, Per.

Nevertheless, the original message was posted in this forum and the only response was from Peter. Any responses should therefore have been also posted here, right?

Not sure how to put this in a kind way - so no. :-) The original posting went to both this list and -project. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

12:33

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Per Jessen wrote:

...
Basil Chupin wrote:

...
And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!).

Check the opensuse-project list.

Never heard of it (opensuse-project) but I will check it out at some stage. Thanks for the hint, Per.

Nevertheless, the original message was posted in this forum and the only response was from Peter. Any responses should therefore have been also posted here, right?

Not sure how to put this in a kind way - so no. :-)

Thank you for your kindness :-) .

...

The original posting went to both this list and -project.

So, any responses also should have been sent to this list, no?

...

/Per

BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

13:03

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...
The original posting went to both this list and -project.

So, any responses also should have been sent to this list, no?

Yeah, responses from people who read it here. I think you'd be better off on opensuse-project if you want to pick up the thread though. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13:23

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...
...
The original posting went to both this list and -project.

So, any responses also should have been sent to this list, no?

Yeah, responses from people who read it here. I think you'd be better off on opensuse-project if you want to pick up the thread though.

OK, thanks. As I said I'll now go looking for it but I do have to express my thinking that this forum has always been the main discussion forum re SuSE (even if others don't agree :-) ) and where the OP posted his original message.

...

/Per

BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger

18:41

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

...

...
...
On 8/18/2009 at 15:23, Basil Chupin wrote: OK, thanks. As I said I'll now go looking for it but I do have to express my thinking that this forum has always been the main discussion forum re SuSE (even if others don't agree :-) ) and where the OP posted his original message.

Partly right: the OP made the error of cross-posting (which is bad in itself for exactly the reason you just experienced). It's enough for one user of one of the MLs not to be subscribed to the other and he's simply not ABLE to cross-post it again. As such, a cross-posted thread is doomed to fail very soon. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White

14:32

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...
The original posting went to both this list and -project. So, any responses also should have been sent to this list, no?

Why? I'm all for this idea but until now I hadn't responded here. I went to the irc channel mentioned in the original post and said so directly, and and had a little opening discussion in real-time. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

14:54

Brian K. White wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Per Jessen wrote:

...
The original posting went to both this list and -project.

So, any responses also should have been sent to this list, no?

Why? I'm all for this idea but until now I hadn't responded here. I went to the irc channel mentioned in the original post and said so directly, and and had a little opening discussion in real-time.

Brian, I'm not really sure what you are trying to convey here in your response. However, if you are trying to put forward the idea that there was the opportunity to use an IRC channel to discuss this topic then please understand that not everyone has the means to be able to access IRC - let alone have the ability to access this forum other than using a dial-up connection. (BTW, are you the Brian White who was providing the tutorials on Linux some years ago and to which I was a subscriber?) BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White

15:46

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Brian K. White wrote:

...
Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Per Jessen wrote:

...
The original posting went to both this list and -project.

So, any responses also should have been sent to this list, no?

Why? I'm all for this idea but until now I hadn't responded here. I went to the irc channel mentioned in the original post and said so directly, and and had a little opening discussion in real-time.

Brian, I'm not really sure what you are trying to convey here in your response.

However, if you are trying to put forward the idea that there was the opportunity to use an IRC channel to discuss this topic then please understand that not everyone has the means to be able to access IRC - let alone have the ability to access this forum other than using a dial-up connection.

(BTW, are you the Brian White who was providing the tutorials on Linux some years ago and to which I was a subscriber?)

BC

I was saying that I don't see at all why all responses should have to be here. He made a suggestion about forming an advocacy group and asked for any interested people to contact him. Which I did. That was a valid response to the post which did not appear here. One might very well ALSO say something here like "yeah great idea" just for the heck of it and to tell everyone else here that you too like this idea, but the primary and ongoing discussion of the idea does not have to take place here and probably shouldn't. If the idea goes anywhere someone should probably set up a seperate mail list, not actually on or hosted by opensuse either. An irc channel is just a way to converse right now using an existing facility without having to set up a mail list and just happened to be convenient for me too. My name is Brian White, but no, no tutorials. I have answered many questions over the years on a few mail lists and newsgroups, almost exclusively relating to sco unix (& xenix), linux, freebsd, and a few software packages that run on same, and a few of those posts have been slightly popularised in the form of being turned into articles on pcunix.com, but no I never wrote any official series of tutorials. Merely sometimes when I answer a good question (or when I get annoyed at reading too much blind-leading-the-blind and answer a poor question by throwing it away and showing both the correct question and the answer), it can come out somewhat like a tutorial or a lecture because I try not to be lazy and give a quick answer that I know will be right in one case and wrong in all others, and so I have to give not only answer A for condition A, I have to try to explain that there even is such a thing as conditions B, C, ..., Z, lambda, Mu, Pi, the-artist-formerly-known-as-Prince, etc... and how to recognize them, and what rules govern finding the other correct answers for those other conditions. And then I actually DO at least one example on some machine of my own and cut & paste the screen shots to show exactly what I mean and also to prove that it really works and that there aren't say, typo's in there. I never figured out how to give a correct answer to a technical problem that didn't involve spidering out to numerous other areas that all touch and affect the item at the heart of the question. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

16:16

Brian K. White wrote:

...

but the primary and ongoing discussion of the idea does not have to take place here and probably shouldn't. If the idea goes anywhere someone should probably set up a seperate mail list, not actually on or hosted by opensuse either.

Hmm, opensuse-project does seem like a pretty appropriate place for this discussion. Personally I don't do much irc, and I also think there's a timezone issue in that. I would vote for keeping the discussion on a mailing list. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (29.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

20 Aug 20 Aug

06:51

Brian K. White wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Brian K. White wrote:

...
Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Per Jessen wrote:

...
The original posting went to both this list and -project.

So, any responses also should have been sent to this list, no?

Why? I'm all for this idea but until now I hadn't responded here. I went to the irc channel mentioned in the original post and said so directly, and and had a little opening discussion in real-time.

Brian, I'm not really sure what you are trying to convey here in your response.

However, if you are trying to put forward the idea that there was the opportunity to use an IRC channel to discuss this topic then please understand that not everyone has the means to be able to access IRC - let alone have the ability to access this forum other than using a dial-up connection.

(BTW, are you the Brian White who was providing the tutorials on Linux some years ago and to which I was a subscriber?)

BC

I was saying that I don't see at all why all responses should have to be here. He made a suggestion about forming an advocacy group and asked for any interested people to contact him. Which I did. That was a valid response to the post which did not appear here. One might very well ALSO say something here like "yeah great idea" just for the heck of it and to tell everyone else here that you too like this idea, but the primary and ongoing discussion of the idea does not have to take place here and probably shouldn't. If the idea goes anywhere someone should probably set up a seperate mail list, not actually on or hosted by opensuse either. An irc channel is just a way to converse right now using an existing facility without having to set up a mail list and just happened to be convenient for me too.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

...

My name is Brian White, but no, no tutorials.

OK, wrong man - but with the same name :-) . Nevertheless, I find your responses to questions very similar to that "other White" which is what made me ask the question. The information provided is superlative. [rest pruned] BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

18 Aug 18 Aug

10:32

...

Alright everybody - everybody ignore this message from Boyd, bury your heads in the sand (therefore showing how big of an arse you have) and pretend that all is perfect with openSUSE!

If I do will all the people who clog this list with wah-wah-openSUSE-is-crap go away?

...

(BTW, who IS running openSUSE now?

Me, a coworker, the guy down the street [literally], my wife, the president of one of the local UGs, ....

...

It was Andreas Jaeger until recently). And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!).

Yea, responding to a mail message takes GUTS! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

12:49

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

...

...
Alright everybody - everybody ignore this message from Boyd, bury your heads in the sand (therefore showing how big of an arse you have) and pretend that all is perfect with openSUSE!

If I do will all the people who clog this list with wah-wah-openSUSE-is-crap go away?

Oh dear. Who stated that "...openSUSE-is-crap"?

...

...
(BTW, who IS running openSUSE now?

Me, a coworker, the guy down the street [literally], my wife, the president of one of the local UGs, ....

Oh dear. But not from anyone who really matters? What a pity.

...

...
It was Andreas Jaeger until recently). And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!).

Yea, responding to a mail message takes GUTS!

Yep, and your gutsy contribution is greatly appreciated. BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Nikolic

22:32

On Tuesday 18 Aug 2009 11:32:29 Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

...

...
Alright everybody - everybody ignore this message from Boyd, bury your heads in the sand (therefore showing how big of an arse you have) and pretend that all is perfect with openSUSE!

If I do will all the people who clog this list with wah-wah-openSUSE-is-crap go away?

...
(BTW, who IS running openSUSE now?

Me, a coworker, the guy down the street [literally], my wife, the president of one of the local UGs, ....

...
It was Andreas Jaeger until recently). And my personal Thanks to Peter who had the intestinal fortitude to respond to the above message (the one and only response!).

Yea, responding to a mail message takes GUTS!

this geeza is becoming a bit of a liability Pete

Carlos E. R.

12:32

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-08-18 at 15:17 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Alright everybody - everybody ignore this message from Boyd, bury your heads in the sand (therefore showing how big of an arse you have) and pretend that all is perfect with openSUSE!

No... I simply don't think I can contribute to that project. I'm not optimistic about suse and related. And there is the project list where it is appropriate. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkqKn18ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UpoACfSMs+Y+wsPYBy6bFAZh4+t+Sm iscAnjfcIVVkMjlvwLKCkxAI2Eyui5lr =gYNw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

13:18

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Tuesday, 2009-08-18 at 15:17 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Alright everybody - everybody ignore this message from Boyd, bury your heads in the sand (therefore showing how big of an arse you have) and pretend that all is perfect with openSUSE!

No... I simply don't think I can contribute to that project. I'm not optimistic about suse and related.

And there is the project list where it is appropriate.

As I stated to Per I was not aware of the 'project' list, and expected that any further comments would be posted in this forum, which is the main openSUSE discussion forum, which is what Peter N did, and where the OP posted his message. As time goes on I too, Carlos, am not optimistic about the future of "suse and related". I waxed lyrical about SuSE to my (late) very good friend and others about SuSE, and we all switched over to SuSE, prior to it being bought out by Novell. (But I already mentioned all this some years ago in this list as you may recall.) The latest developments have me in a pondery: at every entry re an application listed in Yast/software management I have looked at so far there is the entry, "Supportability : unknown". In other words, to my way of thinking, Novell takes no responsibility for the software which it provides as part of openSUSE.

...

Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Regards, BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger

18:39

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

...

...
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On 8/18/2009 at 15:18, Basil Chupin wrote: The latest developments have me in a pondery: at every entry re an application listed in Yast/software management I have looked at so far there is the entry, "Supportability : unknown". In other words, to my way of thinking, Novell takes no responsibility for the software which it provides as part of openSUSE.

'Novell' is just a community member contributing to the project, just as you and me. Why would you expect the 'person' with the name 'Novell' to be more liable to this project than anybody else? Dominique (No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:50

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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On 8/18/2009 at 15:18, Basil Chupin wrote: The latest developments have me in a pondery: at every entry re an application listed in Yast/software management I have looked at so far there is the entry, "Supportability : unknown". In other words, to my way of thinking, Novell takes no responsibility for the software which it provides as part of openSUSE.

'Novell' is just a community member contributing to the project, just as you and me. Why would you expect the 'person' with the name 'Novell' to be more liable to this project than anybody else?

Uh, somehow Novell is not _just_ another community member contributing to the project. Novell sells SLED+SLES which are for all intents and purposes 99% openSUSE. That gives Novell a major project interest, far more than any other project member I'd venture to say. Also, many of the people with whom we communicate here, in bugzilla or elsewhere are in fact Novell employees, many former SuSE employees too.

...

Dominique

(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things).

Dominique, you need better glasses - there is no way Novell is as loosely connected to openSUSE as you are suggesting. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

20 Aug 20 Aug

06:57

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Per Jessen wrote:

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Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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On 8/18/2009 at 15:18, Basil Chupin wrote:

The latest developments have me in a pondery: at every entry re an application listed in Yast/software management I have looked at so far there is the entry, "Supportability : unknown". In other words, to my way of thinking, Novell takes no responsibility for the software which it provides as part of openSUSE.

'Novell' is just a community member contributing to the project, just as you and me. Why would you expect the 'person' with the name 'Novell' to be more liable to this project than anybody else?

Uh, somehow Novell is not _just_ another community member contributing to the project. Novell sells SLED+SLES which are for all intents and purposes 99% openSUSE. That gives Novell a major project interest, far more than any other project member I'd venture to say. Also, many of the people with whom we communicate here, in bugzilla or elsewhere are in fact Novell employees, many former SuSE employees too.

Spot on, Per. [rest pruned - to keep Patrick Shanahan happy.) BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

aledr

18 Aug 18 Aug

18:54

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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...
...
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On 8/18/2009 at 15:18, Basil Chupin wrote: The latest developments have me in a pondery: at every entry re an application listed in Yast/software management I have looked at so far there is the entry, "Supportability : unknown". In other words, to my way of thinking, Novell takes no responsibility for the software which it provides as part of openSUSE.

'Novell' is just a community member contributing to the project, just as you and me. Why would you expect the 'person' with the name 'Novell' to be more liable to this project than anybody else?

Dominique

(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things).

It's very easy to see that decisions at **open**SUSE are not driven by a community thought. Some of the community achievements are widely reported by Novell as its own achievements on web and so on with the distro policies... Maybe because Novell products are based on openSUSE (the community distro???)? -- [ ]'s Aledr - Alexandre "OpenSource Solutions for SmallBusiness Problems" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

19:18

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

...

...
(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things). It's very easy to see that decisions at **open**SUSE are not driven by a community thought.

Examples?

...

Some of the community achievements are widely reported by Novell as its own achievements on web and so on with the distro policies... Maybe because Novell products are based on openSUSE (the community distro???)?

And Fedora feeds RHEL, so what? RedHat 'claims' all the glories of RHEL as its own - of course. You need to decouple marketing claims and truth claims. When I pitch an Open Source project as part of a solution I refer to it as "our product", because the customer just doesn't care; they want to buy a product [solution], not join a project. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

19:34

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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...
...
(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things). It's very easy to see that decisions at **open**SUSE are not driven by a community thought.

Examples?

Relegation of lilo and jfs to "tolerated" or unsupported due to lack of demand/testing. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Adam Tauno Williams

20:11

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Tue, 2009-08-18 at 21:34 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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...
...
(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things). It's very easy to see that decisions at **open**SUSE are not driven by a community thought. Examples? Relegation of lilo and jfs to "tolerated" or unsupported due to lack of demand/testing.

So no one stepped up to do the work? Seems like a community decision to me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

20:18

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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On Tue, 2009-08-18 at 21:34 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

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Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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...
...
(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things). It's very easy to see that decisions at **open**SUSE are not driven by a community thought. Examples? Relegation of lilo and jfs to "tolerated" or unsupported due to lack of demand/testing.

So no one stepped up to do the work? Seems like a community decision to me.

That was several years ago. I'm not sure stepping up was even an option back then. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

21:23

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

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On Tue, 2009-08-18 at 21:34 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

...
...
...
(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things). It's very easy to see that decisions at **open**SUSE are not driven by a community thought. Examples? Relegation of lilo and jfs to "tolerated" or unsupported due to lack of demand/testing.

So no one stepped up to do the work? Seems like a community decision to me.

No, it was an openSUSE product management decision. The email trail is clearly visible. Besides, you asked for examples, I gave you two. End of story. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

19:20

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

aledr wrote:

...

It's very easy to see that decisions at **open**SUSE are not driven by a community thought.

Yep, definitely - AFAICT, the community is not yet sufficiently strong and nor varied.

...

"OpenSource Solutions for SmallBusiness Problems"

I googled this, but didn't really find much of interest. IMHO, it is NOT the job of openSUSE to be particularly accomodating to the wide and varied world of KMUs. The typical KMU is NOT directly involved with openSUSE, they pay a service bureau or a consultant to help them with their needs. I've recently had some contact with a local KMU - some 25 people based in Zurich, but with international subcontractors and international sales staff (Europe, Middle-East and the US). Here's what they needed: - local office systems for standard back office work. openSUSE will cover that perfectly. - local office systems for logistics, finance and book-keeping. openSUSE does less well, but so does every Linux distro I know of. - remote systems for data-entry etc. - could have been done with openSUSE, but due to a requirement for integration with existing logistics/packing systems, Windows Terminal Services was chosen. - telephone system - I'm pretty certain it was Linux+Asterisk based,m supplied by Colt. - email - Outlook Exchange of course. If their local IT services bureau had been more open source oriented, they would have had a more open source based solution. To get back to the topic at hand - I run a small company all based on openSUSE. Primary reason being that I'm a long-time (10 years+) SuSE user. I don't have any particular needs that are not covered by openSUSE, although I am intrigued by what sort of bug-turn-around times I might expect were we to become an SLES-customer. I'm also intrigued by what Boyd Lynn Gerber had in mind when he posted the original post, which is why I'm still tagging along. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

20 Aug 20 Aug

06:31

New subject: [opensuse] Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longerlife time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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...
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On 8/18/2009 at 15:18, Basil Chupin wrote:

The latest developments have me in a pondery: at every entry re an application listed in Yast/software management I have looked at so far there is the entry, "Supportability : unknown". In other words, to my way of thinking, Novell takes no responsibility for the software which it provides as part of openSUSE.

'Novell' is just a community member contributing to the project, just as you and me. Why would you expect the 'person' with the name 'Novell' to be more liable to this project than anybody else?

Dominique

(No, I'm not affiliated with the company 'Novell'. This is my view of the things).

You don't really expect me to answer your question, do you? (But, as a hint, who paid money to buy SuSE and who then renamed SuSE to openSUSE?) BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

18 Aug 18 Aug

19:15

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Creating a group of conserned Users and Novell partners/longer life time for openSUSE... (LONG POST)

On Tue, 18 Aug 2009 23:18:30 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

As I stated to Per I was not aware of the 'project' list, and expected that any further comments would be posted in this forum

This is the users mailing list, not "the main openSUSE discussion forum". There are in fact several different venues of communication, depending on one's involvement in the project. Bottom line, just because you haven't seen all the replies doesn't mean there aren't other replies in other venues where the questions were posed. You have now learned a thing - not a bad thing by any stretch. So let's stop talking about where the responses were and stick to the actual topic....sound good to you? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:28

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-08-18 at 23:18 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

As I stated to Per I was not aware of the 'project' list, and expected that any further comments would be posted in this forum, which is the main openSUSE discussion forum, which is what Peter N did, and where the OP posted his message.

Well, the idea is normally to atract the attention of readers here to the post, and answer there. Anyway, you know you can retrieve the mail from any list for the entire month (and other months), and inport it into your mailer, as if you were subscribed all that time? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkqLDvkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WoTQCfbmj6u4YwvulwzqLKoC+FsVgD MuIAnRnzoWObMkiOAvTJMddCNlqtiamv =SarI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

20 Aug 20 Aug

06:45

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday, 2009-08-18 at 23:18 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
As I stated to Per I was not aware of the 'project' list, and expected that any further comments would be posted in this forum, which is the main openSUSE discussion forum, which is what Peter N did, and where the OP posted his message.

Well, the idea is normally to atract the attention of readers here to the post, and answer there.

Well, I wasn't aware that there is any 'normality' in anything done in these forums. If a post appears in one forum then it is responded to in that forum -- and if it has been cross-posted then any responses also get cross-posted. This has been the etiquette of corresponding on the 'net for quite some time -- at least this is what I have been adhering for the past many years :-) .

...

Anyway, you know you can retrieve the mail from any list for the entire month (and other months), and inport it into your mailer, as if you were subscribed all that time?

I did subscribe to that list even before your message and since reading your response I did go the the archives and read this thread in opensuse-projects. (Not a single posting in that forum in the past days. Very active forum indeed.) Not much of a discussion at all. A total non-event as far as I am concerned. More comment comment here in opensuse than in project. However, I am not able - ie, do not have the knowledge - to import that archive into my mail client (which is Thunderbird). Can you tell me how to do it, please? BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:40

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-08-20 at 16:45 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I did subscribe to that list even before your message and since reading your response I did go the the archives and read this thread in opensuse-projects.

(Not a single posting in that forum in the past days. Very active forum indeed.)

587 mail this month, 35 today.

...

Not much of a discussion at all. A total non-event as far as I am concerned. More comment comment here in opensuse than in project.

I haven't looked.

...

However, I am not able - ie, do not have the knowledge - to import that archive into my mail client (which is Thunderbird). Can you tell me how to do it, please?

I download the file "http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/opensuse-project-2009-08.mbox.gz" and expand it, into a directory of the Th. mail hierarchy, in my case ~/Mail.mzla - that should be enough, the folder should be seen after restarting thunderbird. If not, exit Th, and do a "touch /opensuse-project-2009-08.msf". This creates an empty folder index which Th will overwrite when started. That's my procedure, there maybe a click-click one too. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkqN3wYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VLIACgjY63e3BkRLevhhP3aQ8UG6DZ EpoAmwfj8rg69AVIO7xCJIp9tSmRqrGL =fgTB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

21 Aug 21 Aug

04:43

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Thursday, 2009-08-20 at 16:45 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
I did subscribe to that list even before your message and since reading your response I did go the the archives and read this thread in opensuse-projects.

(Not a single posting in that forum in the past days. Very active forum indeed.)

587 mail this month, 35 today.

I didn't have my msg filter set correctly so all the latest postings were put into the opensuse list :-) . I have since had them moved to the project list.

...

...
concerned. More comment comment here in opensuse than in project. Not much of a discussion at all. A total non-event as far as I am

I haven't looked.

...
However, I am not able - ie, do not have the knowledge - to import that archive into my mail client (which is Thunderbird). Can you tell me how to do it, please?

I download the file "http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/opensuse-project-2009-08.mbox.gz" and expand it, into a directory of the Th. mail hierarchy, in my case ~/Mail.mzla - that should be enough, the folder should be seen after restarting thunderbird. If not, exit Th, and do a "touch /opensuse-project-2009-08.msf". This creates an empty folder index which Th will overwrite when started.

That's my procedure, there maybe a click-click one too.

Many thanks! On a wild guess I had unpacked the gz file earlier but put the darn thing into the wrong directory within TB which is why TB didn't "see" it. Now all is OK and working correctly :-) . BC -- Insanity is only a state of mind. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez

18 Aug 18 Aug

16:23

On 14/08/09 12:50, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

...

1. Many small business owners/small companies feel there is a lack of attention to their needs from Novell. That is to say Novell only listens to "Monster Enterprise Clients"

If Novell customers (aka, those who pay money directly to Novell) feel they are being treated bad, they should direct their complains to their respective agents or contacts, not to a mailing list.

...

3. They are really concerned "OpenSUSE distro is moving toward just a desktop Ubunto clone. They are ignoreing what was there bigest strength. Providing a Polished First Class Stable Server with necessary Desktop fetures."

What makes you think those concerns are based in reality ?

...

4. "Tired of hearing we do this for fun, it is not my problem/responsibility, hire a programmer or become one." "Fix it yourself as it is a community distro.

Well, that's kinda how it works, sorry to say..

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Doesn't Novell realize who pays their salaries?

Tell me, in what sense do you think openSUSE contributes into paying Novell employees salaries ?

...

Solution: Have the openSUSE->openSLE->SLES/SLED path available.

Good luck.

...

At some of the event I and others I talk with have attended it is often asked "Why doesn't Novell offer an opneSLE alternitive?"

Obviously because it is against their interests... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (13)

Adam Tauno Williams
aledr
Basil Chupin
Boyd Lynn Gerber
Brian K. White
Carlos E. R.
Cristian Rodríguez
Dominique Leuenberger
Gary Baribault
Greg Freemyer
Jim Henderson
Per Jessen
Peter Nikolic