[opensuse] Tape backup? - slightly OT
Hi, a little off-topic but I'm looking into replacing our old DDS4 tape drive which is now too small. Our choice now looks like LTO, AIT or DLT as our total backup size is now 80Gb. Has anyone got any good/bad experiences with any of these technologies? I'm assuming that all will be recognised by SuSE on our servier which has both SATA and SCSI. What's the cheapest to buy and run? thanks for any advice Kevin Thorpe Purchasing Index Ltd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
little off-topic but I'm looking into replacing our old DDS4 tape drive which is now too small. Our choice now looks like LTO, AIT or DLT as our total backup size is now 80Gb. Has anyone got any good/bad experiences with any of these technologies? I'm assuming that all will be recognised by SuSE on our ervier which has both SATA and SCSI. What's the cheapest to buy and run?
We have three LTO drives, and one DLT drive. openSUSE works fine with them all. LTO seems somewhat more reliable than DLT (we've had to swap the DLT drives a couple times over the years), but that is ancedotal. I think price ways they ate all about the same. -- -- Adam Tauno Williams Network & Systems Administrator Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am 02.04.2007 um 13:41 schrieb Kevin Thorpe:
a little off-topic but I'm looking into replacing our old DDS4 tape drive which is now too small.
Our choice now looks like LTO, AIT or DLT as our total backup size is now 80Gb. Has anyone got any good/bad experiences with any of these technologies? I'm assuming that all will be recognised by SuSE on our servier which has both SATA and SCSI. What's the cheapest to buy and run?
We currently use LTO. It works ok - for a tape. As all tapes it is slow as hell for recovery case, a LTO media is mechanically robust but can't be used that often (we change media after 15 backup cycles and already had rejected tapes). Next time we need to change backup system we will go to USB/eSATA disks - one disk for each tape media we currently have in use: Pro: - you don't need an expensive tape-drive - you can already have 1TB per media - you can reuse such a disk much more often then 15 times - you can have fast as hell selective restores on every cheap PC - backup time via rsync like programs is nearly as fast as incremental backups, but you have full access to your complete backup without having to deal with multiple media - you can switch to next generation disks without a new expensive tape-drive Contra: - a single media is a bit more expensive - a disk is not as robust as a tape media - a disk _may_ not be usable as long as a tape media - at least 3.5" disks are a little bit bigger then LTO tape media This is not a solution for a 1000 people company, but for a server with up to a terrabyte online storage it is a robust, easy to handle, relatively cheap and reliable solution. It may not be a solution if you have to archive financial data for your local tax institute - IANAL. But if you "only" have to deal with important data it is better then most solutions I know about. Regards Ralf -- Brückner & Jarosch GmbH Van Roy's Law: ------------------------------------------------------- An unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
a little off-topic but I'm looking into replacing our old DDS4 tape drive which is now too small. Our choice now looks like LTO, AIT or DLT as our total backup size is now 80Gb. Has anyone got any good/bad experiences with any of these technologies? I'm assuming that all will be recognised by SuSE on our servier which has both SATA and SCSI. What's the cheapest to buy and run? We currently use LTO. It works ok - for a tape. As all tapes it is slow as hell for recovery case, a LTO media is mechanically robust but can't be used that often (we change media after 15 backup cycles and already had rejected tapes).
We have three LTO drives; life cycle of a tape is MUCH MUCH longer than that.
Next time we need to change backup system we will go to USB/eSATA disks - one disk for each tape media we currently have in use: Pro: - you don't need an expensive tape-drive - you can already have 1TB per media
You can get 1TB drives?
- you can reuse such a disk much more often then 15 times
Not likely if you are trundling them back and forth between an offsite backup location. The durability of a caddied drive isn't event remotely close to that of a magnetic tape. Not even close.
Contra: - a single media is a bit more expensive - a disk is not as robust as a tape media
Not even close.
- a disk _may_ not be usable as long as a tape media
It won't be.
- at least 3.5" disks are a little bit bigger then LTO tape media This is not a solution for a 1000 people company, but for a server with up to a terrabyte online storage it is a robust, easy to handle, relatively cheap and
Not robust. Not easy to handle (*FRAGILE*) and certainly NOT electromagnetically robust; one good jolt of static electricity and your backup is fried. Magnetic tape is amazingly resilient.
reliable solution. It may not be a solution if you have to archive financial data for your local tax institute - IANAL. But if you "only" have to deal with important data it is better then most solutions I know about.
-- -- Adam Tauno Williams Network & Systems Administrator Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 02 April 2007, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
a little off-topic but I'm looking into replacing our old DDS4 tape drive which is now too small. Our choice now looks like LTO, AIT or DLT as our total backup size is now 80Gb. Has anyone got any good/bad experiences with any of these technologies? I'm assuming that all will be recognised by SuSE on our servier which has both SATA and SCSI. What's the cheapest to buy and run?
We currently use LTO. It works ok - for a tape. As all tapes it is slow as hell for recovery case, a LTO media is mechanically robust but can't be used that often (we change media after 15 backup cycles and already had rejected tapes).
We have three LTO drives; life cycle of a tape is MUCH MUCH longer than that.
Next time we need to change backup system we will go to USB/eSATA disks - one disk for each tape media we currently have in use: Pro: - you don't need an expensive tape-drive - you can already have 1TB per media
You can get 1TB drives?
Yes. Seagate has announced them
- you can reuse such a disk much more often then 15 times
Not likely if you are trundling them back and forth between an offsite backup location. The durability of a caddied drive isn't event remotely close to that of a magnetic tape. Not even close.
Your entire (and repetitive) assertion that disks can't outlast tape is based on this "trundling them back and forth" nonsense. Tapes wear out just doing their job. They wear out sitting on the shelf. Disks don't need to be "trundled". Not with today's bandwidth. The entire backup can be off site, across the street, or across town. As for your assertion about disk backup being fried by one jolt of static, that's the most absurd thing I've heard in months. Computers bearing disks get static jolts every day. Some in Northern cold dry climates get 6 or 8 strong jolts every working day for years. No problem. Its odd you would take this line of reasoning. After all, tapes have been used for backup and regularly replaced for years, backing up the SAME HARD DRIVES year after year after year, often for a decade or more of using the same disk drive. Most installations burn thru dozens of tapes, either thru attrition or prudent replacement, while continuing to back up the same drives. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am 03.04.2007 um 07:13 schrieb John Andersen:
Yes. Seagate has announced them
and Hitachi is about to deliver ...
Tapes wear out just doing their job. They wear out sitting on the shelf.
Ack.
Disks don't need to be "trundled". Not with today's bandwidth. The entire backup can be off site, across the street, or across town.
Thats another point. It's quite easy to have an offsite copy today. You can pay a fast DSL line for one of your coworkers and place an archive server for less then the price of a tape drive in his cellar. It doesn't meet the BOFH definition of a backup because you can fry your whole backup at once, but it is cheap, automatic, easy to maintain and easy to access - and you can have more then one of these systems. And chances your company server burns down at the same time this archive server burns are not that high ...
Most installations burn thru dozens of tapes, either thru attrition or prudent replacement, while continuing to back up the same drives.
Ack. Ralf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am 02.04.2007 um 19:51 schrieb Adam Tauno Williams:
We currently use LTO. It works ok - for a tape. As all tapes it is slow as hell for recovery case, a LTO media is mechanically robust but can't be used that often (we change media after 15 backup cycles and already had rejected tapes).
We have three LTO drives; life cycle of a tape is MUCH MUCH longer than that.
Can be - we also have tapes which last longer, but after 3 tapes in a short period which were rejected because of write errors after less then 20 write cycles we decided to not take the risk and were going down to 15 cycles generally. We also have more then one LTO drive in use (here in our company and for different customers) and - yes - some years ago a tape was a good idea. But especially to backup current amounts of data tape is completely outnumbered.
Next time we need to change backup system we will go to USB/eSATA disks - one disk for each tape media we currently have in use: Pro: - you don't need an expensive tape-drive - you can already have 1TB per media
You can get 1TB drives?
Ok - give it 3 month ... : HITACHI HDS721010KLA330 - Auftragsbezogene Bestellung - vorauss. ab 11.07.2007 lieferbar - http://www.emedia-shop.de/
- you can reuse such a disk much more often then 15 times
Not likely if you are trundling them back and forth between an offsite backup location. The durability of a caddied drive isn't event remotely close to that of a magnetic tape. Not even close.
I'm in project business: I have to do "show programming" at customers - to have a local copy of what I did on the remote system (these systems are not always accessible for remote administration) I'm used to have a copy of such systems on a 100GB 2.5" USB disk. This disk always is carried in my laptop bag, it has to deal with mechanical, electrical and whatever conditions - I just don't care about this disk - after much more then a year it still is happily alive. Every laptop has a disk - if disks would be that easy to break no company would dare to produce disks and give a 2 or more year warranty.
- a disk _may_ not be usable as long as a tape media
It won't be.
A disk may not be a good idea as a 10 year archive media - I don't know. But for daily backup it lasts long enough. If you have this one media per week day, one media per week, one media per month scheme you are quite save that you have a recent backup.
[...] but for a server with up to a terrabyte online storage it is a robust, easy to handle, relatively cheap and
Not robust. Not easy to handle (*FRAGILE*) and certainly NOT electromagnetically robust; one good jolt of static electricity and your backup is fried. Magnetic tape is amazingly resilient.
Maybe you work in a high voltage environment, maybe in thunderstorm research ... but for what I know the extra bucks for tape infrastructure can be invested in something more useful. I have been with you less then 2 years ago: backup - that means tape or WORM or something other designed to be used as backup. Times change.I had to change my mind. BTW: if you are really in a hurry and you did full system backups you can even activate one of this backup disks directly - in this case you can be back online less then half an hour after you started "recovery" - even without having completely redundant hardware. There are customers who would give a leg for such a message after the server gave smoke signals ... Ralf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-04-03 at 10:21 +0200, Ralf Müller wrote:
You can get 1TB drives?
Ok - give it 3 month ... :
rumored not to be as reliable as "normal" sizes, yet.
Not robust. Not easy to handle (*FRAGILE*) and certainly NOT electromagnetically robust; one good jolt of static electricity and your backup is fried. Magnetic tape is amazingly resilient.
Maybe you work in a high voltage environment, maybe in thunderstorm research ... but for what I know the extra bucks for tape infrastructure can be invested in something more useful.
In theory a HD electronics can break down. In the same circumstances with removable media, the media itself can survive, you just replace the drive and recover the data. There are more things that can break down in a drive. In practice... :-? By the way, I just seen for the home market HD external boxes with an ethernet port: small cpu + some memory. Some support some kind of ftp or http server, some have some kind of security, some support linux clients, other only windows. Still too green, IMO, but interesting. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGEhnrtTMYHG2NR9URAiqXAKCI9YJnyHtP4ymV1PrCdolUprQ8VACeI9OE zb+/WaPKTXXWBgk6oMvAQDY= =uFc0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Am 03.04.2007 um 11:10 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
You can get 1TB drives?
Ok - give it 3 month ... :
rumored not to be as reliable as "normal" sizes, yet.
This may be. The Hitachi drives are not released yet. But to speak for these 750GB Segate drives, which are the same technology: I have some of these in use and they seem to be not less reliable as other drives - no broken disk yet. Knock on wood.
In theory a HD electronics can break down. In the same circumstances with removable media, the media itself can survive, you just replace the drive and recover the data. There are more things that can break down in a drive. In practice... :-?
If it is the only backup left and you really want to recover data from it you can replace the drive electronics too. But yes - a tape media _is_ more robust then a hard disk. There is much less fragile mechanics in it, there is no electronics in it ... But there are other drawbacks with tapes: most small companies don't have a second tape drive in house. If their server dies and takes the tape drive with it you have to get such a drive to recover - depending on situation, this may take days. The point is - you need to check your use cases and possible alternatives and their risks. And for our usage (and for the use cases of most of the small companies I know about) a tape drive is much less interesting then something like a set of USB disks/a remote archive server/a nice little home NAS ... When you are admin and you choose a tape drive you are save - even if it fails you did _the_right_thing(tm)_. But if the question is not to do _the_right_thing(tm)_ but to simply keep all the stuff up and running, you may want to have a look at the alternatives - you may save money, gain uptime and make your and the life of your users easier. Just my two cents Ralf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 4/3/07, Ralf Müller
Am 03.04.2007 um 11:10 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
In theory a HD electronics can break down. In the same circumstances with removable media, the media itself can survive, you just replace the drive and recover the data. There are more things that can break down in a drive. In practice... :-?
If it is the only backup left and you really want to recover data from it you can replace the drive electronics too. But yes - a tape media _is_ more robust then a hard disk. There is much less fragile mechanics in it, there is no electronics in it ...
I'm a big fan of tape for multi-year backups, but you need to be careful with a generic statement that tape is more robust than disk. IIRC, most HDs today are rated for 30 G's of acceleration. That is the equivalent of the impact you get if you drop it from several feet onto a concrete floor. (ie. from waist height) There are 2 categories of tape, those with a manufacturer's alignment track and those without. Those with should also survive a multi-foot drop onto concrete. Those without will likely not survive. The reason is that the actual tape itself will move slightly after such a drop. Without an alignment track the drive will likely be unable to read the data from the proper location. With an alignment track and the associated extra drive head and drive positioning motors etc. (ie. $$) the drive should simply move the read/write heads to adjust for the actual position of the tape. FYI: Media that has an alignment track laid down by the manufacturer will be destroyed by using a tape degausser, so a quick test to see if your drive uses an alignment track is to take a tape media you plan to throw-out and run a $30 tape degauser across it. If the tape fails to work at all, then you had an alignment track. FYI2: I don't know if most tape drives today have alignment capability or not. I do know that DDR4 type drives of 10 years ago did not. And the LTO-1 drives I use do. Greg -- Greg Freemyer The Norcross Group Forensics for the 21st Century -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
FYI: Media that has an alignment track laid down by the manufacturer will be destroyed by using a tape degausser, so a quick test to see if your drive uses an alignment track is to take a tape media you plan to throw-out and run a $30 tape degauser across it. If the tape fails to work at all, then you had an alignment track.
FYI2: I don't know if most tape drives today have alignment capability or not. I do know that DDR4 type drives of 10 years ago did not. And the LTO-1 drives I use do.
I've demonstrated, multiple times, dropping an LTO tape from waist height, kicking it across the floor so that it bounces of the wall, inserting it into a drive.... and reading data. Do that with a HD in a USB caddy. Modern tape, unless you crush the enclosure, is just this side of impervious. But if you want to have 50+ USB chassis with hard drives to cycle your backup on then by all means. If you believe you will have less failures then with tape I can't help but think your nuts. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
But if you want to have 50+ USB chassis with hard drives to cycle your backup on then by all means.
And if you purchase eggs in a sac you will see breakage as well. You keep putting forth this idea that hard drives should be moved around and plugged into something like they were tape cartridges. You really MUST expand your horizons. http://www.backupcentral.com/components/com_mambowiki/index.php/Disk_Targets... http://www.intradyn.com/rocketvault/index.html -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 10:27 -0800, John Andersen wrote:
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
But if you want to have 50+ USB chassis with hard drives to cycle your backup on then by all means. And if you purchase eggs in a sac you will see breakage as well. You keep putting forth this idea that hard drives should be moved around and plugged into something like they were tape cartridges. You really MUST expand your horizons.
No, you really need to look at a phone bill. Mine comes every month in a big box which includes frame-relay and a dozen T1s. All this off-site over-the-wire backup sounds great until you calculate the cost of the WAN connections - I could buy a new tape drive every month. Backing up corporate data over DSL or cable lines is not realistic, upstream speeds are not nearly good enough. You *might* be able to keep a remote SAN in sync at a reasonable cost (minimum disaster recovery distance is supposed to be something like 50 miles); but that will probably require at least a dedicated T1. But you still have to back THAT up - and backups mean you can go back, not just to the most recent copy, but back, as in "the end of 2006". Your going to need a hell of allot of online storage to pull that off. And you cannot just rsync everything, there is lots of date other than files, including Dits, mail stores, and relation databases.
http://www.backupcentral.com/components/com_mambowiki/index.php/Disk_Targets... http://www.intradyn.com/rocketvault/index.html
-- -- Adam Tauno Williams Network & Systems Administrator Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
No, you really need to look at a phone bill. Mine comes every month in a big box which includes frame-relay and a dozen T1s. All this off-site over-the-wire backup sounds great until you calculate the cost of the WAN connections - I could buy a new tape drive every month. Backing up corporate data over DSL or cable lines is not realistic, upstream speeds are not nearly good enough. Y
So back it up to another part of the building on your local lan. Its highly unlikely the ENTIRE CAMPUS will burn down, and if it does you have far greater problems, as well as a collection of melted tapes. Much as you protest, this is where the industry is going. Disk drives are falling in price each year. Tape solutions always seem to cost as much as the computer that they are attached to. Disk technology is in the field, inexpensive, and robust. Even for small shop something like this might do: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=270 Want network attach: See this one: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=279&language=en -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
John Andersen wrote:
So back it up to another part of the building on your local lan.
Its highly unlikely the ENTIRE CAMPUS will burn down, and if it does you have far greater problems, as well as a collection of melted tapes.
Unlikely, but it happens. WTC is one example. New Orleans is another. Whole buildings and even whole neighborhoods *do* get wiped out by fires, floods, tornados, you name it. Having backups geographically somewhere else can mean the difference between a business being able to continue or being wiped out entirely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
No, you really need to look at a phone bill. Mine comes every month in a big box which includes frame-relay and a dozen T1s. All this off-site over-the-wire backup sounds great until you calculate the cost of the WAN connections - I could buy a new tape drive every month. Backing up corporate data over DSL or cable lines is not realistic, upstream speeds are not nearly good enough. Y So back it up to another part of the building on your local lan. Its highly unlikely the ENTIRE CAMPUS will burn down, and if it does you have far greater problems, as well as a collection of melted tapes.
Floods, tornadoes, etc... If the entire campus is the size of one city block, it isn't very hard to imagine at all. And there are legal requirements as well, either contractual or regulatory - on more businesses than realize it (most are either ignorant or just pray they don't get caught with their pants down). Take a look at how many urban centers are actually in flood plains; I think you'll be surprised. And you are wrong in that backups are only for recovering from destroyed data/equipment. Backups are archival, you may need them for research, audits, and legal action. Most of the times in my career I've restored from backup has not been because of failure of software or hardware but because someone wanted/needed to see a point-in-time or access to data that was expunged. A briefcase (24) of LTO-2 tapes is 4,800Gb, that is 7 750Gb drives (with no redundancy, and not including filesystem overhead). Since most shops have close to 100 tapes thats 20,000Gb or 27 750Gb drives (with no redundancy and not including filesystem overhead) - it certainly doesn't seem convenient to me or cost effective. If you have all these online you are also going to need an expensive enclosure to cool and power them all. Then if you put it remote you need the bandwidth.... in no way do those numbers come out ahead of tape.
Much as you protest, this is where the industry is going.
Pure conjecture. I do see movement to SANs with remote replication - but that is redundancy, not backup. Data still has to be archived in a rotational fashion - it just has to be, period. And I am seeing no one doing that with disk. The only way to avoid that is to have truly massive off-site storage, which almost no medium sized company can afford.
Disk drives are falling in price each year.
Yep, so?
Tape solutions always seem to cost as much as the computer that they are attached to.
You are buying really cheap servers.
Disk technology is in the field, inexpensive, and robust. Even for small shop something like this might do: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=270 Want network attach: See this one: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=279&language=en
Don't send me links to adds. Adds of course put a positive spin on stuff, that is what adds are for. Not to mention this is $500 and only provides the storage it has inside - no way does this compete with a tape drive; it is equivalent to 5 tapes; so most shops I visit would need at least 20 of these. -- -- Adam Tauno Williams Network & Systems Administrator Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
And you are wrong in that backups are only for recovering from destroyed data/equipment. Backups are archival, you may need them for research, audits, and legal action. Most of the times in my career I've restored from backup has not been because of failure of software or hardware but because someone wanted/needed to see a point-in-time or access to data that was expunged.
Yup. Most of my backup retrieval requests have not been of the "Oh no, the hard disk crashed!" variety. They've been more like, "Oh no! I need that file I accidentally overwrote two weeks ago!"
Much as you protest, this is where the industry is going.
Pure conjecture. I do see movement to SANs with remote replication - but that is redundancy, not backup. Data still has to be archived in a rotational fashion - it just has to be, period. And I am seeing no one doing that with disk. The only way to avoid that is to have truly massive off-site storage, which almost no medium sized company can afford.
I see two other uses for disk-based backups: - Quick restoration from on-site backup. If you have disk-based backup on-site, you eliminate the need to retrieve tapes from off-site for those "oops" moments. Restoring from disk is faster, as well, because tape has seek times measured in minutes instead of milliseconds. With compression and file pooling it's possible to archive several weeks of data on a reasonable amount of disk space. BackupPC is a pretty good implementation of this. - Disk-buffered tape backup. Often on large systems it simply takes too long to write a tape backup -- you can't fit it in the backup window, especially if you're verifying every tape after writing it. (You should be.) In that case it sometimes makes sense to quickly mirror the disk to another disk array, then back that up the contents of the mirror. This is being made obsolete by filesystems that support snapshots, though. In both these cases you still need tape or some other removable media for off-site storage. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
I've demonstrated, multiple times, dropping an LTO tape from waist height, kicking it across the floor so that it bounces of the wall, inserting it into a drive.... and reading data. Do that with a HD in a USB caddy. Modern tape, unless you crush the enclosure, is just this side of impervious.
LTO tapes must be better made than the DLT tape media I'm used to. Dropping it from waist height had a good chance of knocking the reel off center inside the cartridge. Our tape drive manufacturer had warned us not to load any tapes where the reel wasn't perfectly centered, lest it jam in the drive. I suppose if I'd ever really needed the data off one I'd dropped I could have sent it somewhere to be repaired, though. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-04-03 at 10:20 -0400, Greg Freemyer wrote: ...
There are 2 categories of tape, those with a manufacturer's alignment track and those without.
Those with should also survive a multi-foot drop onto concrete. Those without will likely not survive. The reason is that the actual tape itself will move slightly after such a drop. Without an alignment track the drive will likely be unable to read the data from the proper location.
I would have thought that the recorded tracks hold enough info for a good reader to align itself, same as video tape players do. I thought the technology would be more advanced.
FYI: Media that has an alignment track laid down by the manufacturer will be destroyed by using a tape degausser, so a quick test to see if your drive uses an alignment track is to take a tape media you plan to throw-out and run a $30 tape degauser across it. If the tape fails to work at all, then you had an alignment track.
Funny that the drive can not create the alignment track. Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGEqbytTMYHG2NR9URAuWgAJ0UW/JX6K3sBxoGoAyyu1K0tlUwxACffFj+ ITUedGQj1m15rKrWHenfH0c= =IJzB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, Ralf Müller wrote:
There is much less fragile mechanics in it, there is no electronics in it ...
Who are you trying to kid? -- _____________________________________ John Andersen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 10:04 -0800, John Andersen wrote:
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, Ralf Müller wrote:
There is much less fragile mechanics in it, there is no electronics in it ... Who are you trying to kid?
That there are no electronics in a tape? Take one apart sometime, there isn't. -- -- Adam Tauno Williams Network & Systems Administrator Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 10:04 -0800, John Andersen wrote:
On Tuesday 03 April 2007, Ralf Müller wrote:
There is much less fragile mechanics in it, there is no electronics in it ...
Who are you trying to kid?
That there are no electronics in a tape? Take one apart sometime, there isn't.
There are no electronics in a disk PLATTER either. Tape drives are far more mechanically complex and finicky than disk drives. They have just as much electronics. In either disk or tape, its not the electronics that are the problem. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-04-03 at 10:30 -0800, John Andersen wrote:
That there are no electronics in a tape? Take one apart sometime, there isn't.
There are no electronics in a disk PLATTER either.
John, that's grasping at straws. I wasn't aware you could buy the platter separately, and insert it into a drive bought without platter. HD have electronics. You transport the thing whole. Tapes are tapes, have no electronics. You insert the tape into a box that has.
In either disk or tape, its not the electronics that are the problem.
It is indeed. When you transport a backup in a HD, its electronics is vulnerable. You can have several tapes drives to read the same tape: if the electronics breaks in one, you can have another one. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGEqiOtTMYHG2NR9URAjfwAJ945nCFU9Ud6nucJKbvVXOdzjlKfQCgj4f6 mZJNR1Pmmi3o1aLhofIR+D0= =jj5o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I wasn't aware you could buy the platter separately, and insert it into a drive bought without platter.
zip drives, jazz ones, and now DVD, bluray... all reading sequencially. tapes are good as long as you don't need the data... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-04-03 at 21:33 +0200, jdd wrote:
tapes are good as long as you don't need the data...
True... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGEs4ytTMYHG2NR9URAif3AJwLEFRCubvk78SbjkvjAfnHwudAygCcDIMK nAoep8t3lsFy7Q/047OXzO0= =Bh4d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 02:10, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
By the way, I just seen for the home market HD external boxes with an ethernet port: small cpu + some memory. Some support some kind of ftp or http server,
NFS and / or CIFS are usually the primary file access protocols and administration is typically done via a Web-based interface, just as routers, DSL and cable modems typically are.
some have some kind of security, some support linux clients, other only windows. Still too green, IMO, but interesting.
"Too green?" As in too new to trust? I tend to think not, since there's no advanced technology in them. Just a small, low-power computer with an Ethernet interface, some disks, a power supply and a smidgeon of custom software. I'll bet most of them use nearly 100% open-source software--they certainly could get almost all the required software off the open-source shelf. I wonder if I could make my TiVO double as a backup server? Randall schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-04-03 at 07:44 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 02:10, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
By the way, I just seen for the home market HD external boxes with an ethernet port: small cpu + some memory. Some support some kind of ftp or http server,
NFS and / or CIFS are usually the primary file access protocols and administration is typically done via a Web-based interface, just as routers, DSL and cable modems typically are.
I saw one or two with FTP.
some have some kind of security, some support linux clients, other only windows. Still too green, IMO, but interesting.
"Too green?" As in too new to trust?
No, no. Too few models to chose. At the places I looked on the net nearby I saw only four models - I mean for home use, not for "serious" or "big" usage. Maybe you have seen more? And I miss features like a firewall, user auth, suport for linux filesystems withs permissions and attributes (ie, not forced to use FAT), etc. They are new in the market, then. Green.
I tend to think not, since there's no advanced technology in them. Just a small, low-power computer with an Ethernet interface, some disks, a power supply and a smidgeon of custom software. I'll bet most of them use nearly 100% open-source software--they certainly could get almost all the required software off the open-source shelf.
I know. Or I guess. But one of the four models was for windows only.
I wonder if I could make my TiVO double as a backup server?
X-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGEqpdtTMYHG2NR9URAoRBAKCBRx4S6WlzlSfH2eHyKZQgPn4ylwCdHZHE npDKOhfQxEzGbIh6LVviawU= =CirD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Quoting Adam Tauno Williams
Next time we need to change backup system we will go to USB/eSATA disks - one disk for each tape media we currently have in use: Pro: - you don't need an expensive tape-drive - you can already have 1TB per media
You can get 1TB drives?
Yes. Advertised in the Sunday paper at Fry's in Austin TX. Maxtor 1TB Triple Interface External Hard Drive C01W010, also available in 1.5TB capacity. See: http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4924381?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Next time we need to change backup system we will go to USB/eSATA disks - one disk for each tape media we currently have in use: Pro: - you don't need an expensive tape-drive - you can already have 1TB per media You can get 1TB drives? Yes. Advertised in the Sunday paper at Fry's in Austin TX. Maxtor 1TB Triple Interface External Hard Drive C01W010, also available in 1.5TB capacity. See: http://shop1.outpost.com/product/4924381?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
And cost effective? No way. Not unless one copy counts as a backup; it certainly won't cut it in the corporate world, absolutely not in any corporation subject to audits. -- -- Adam Tauno Williams Network & Systems Administrator Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 4/2/07, Kevin Thorpe
Hi, a little off-topic but I'm looking into replacing our old DDS4 tape drive which is now too small.
Our choice now looks like LTO, AIT or DLT as our total backup size is now 80Gb. Has anyone got any good/bad experiences with any of these technologies? I'm assuming that all will be recognised by SuSE on our servier which has both SATA and SCSI. What's the cheapest to buy and run?
thanks for any advice
Kevin Thorpe Purchasing Index Ltd
I use LTO-1 for the last 3 or 4 years. Compression seems to just happen. (ie. 100GB tape holds 200GB compressed). LTOs have both a write head and a read head, so everything you write is immediately written and verified. i.e No separate verify pass needed. I don't remember offhand if AIT/DLT have this or not. Back with the 2.4 kernels I had to do some special configuration to get the LTO to work, but with 2.6 kernels it has just worked for me. FYI: LTO is now the market share leader in this class of tape drive, so if I were buying today that is still what I would go with. Greg -- Greg Freemyer The Norcross Group Forensics for the 21st Century -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-04-02 at 12:41 +0100, Kevin Thorpe wrote:
Hi, a little off-topic but I'm looking into replacing our old DDS4 tape drive which is now too small.
Our choice now looks like LTO, AIT or DLT as our total backup size is now 80Gb. Has anyone got any good/bad experiences with any of these technologies? I'm assuming that all will be recognised by SuSE on our servier which has both SATA and SCSI. What's the cheapest to buy and run?
thanks for any advice
Kevin, Do not get the Sony ait-1 atapi. The scsi may work but the atapi is a problem. I can not change the block size, many of the command take you to loop and you have to do turn the device off. So far is an expensive piece of equipment with the $ of 6 extra tapes sitting there. Interestingly it works ok under OS/2. Under linux I was able to make a couple of tapes using cpio and 512 block. Sony support help somehow but most of their knowledge comes from the save machine but connected to a scsi adapter. Their atapi knowledge is with windows. This coming weekend I will try it again in suse 10.2 before I thrush it. All my attempts have been with SuSE 10 and 10.2. I have tested also with some of the commercial backup programs with no success either. I have not found anybody using linux and the ait-1 drive atapi with good results. I found a couple of threads with the same problems I had and no solution. So be sure before you buy a tape drive that someone else is using it without problems and what software are they using. Ciao -=terry(Denver)=- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Carlos E. R. -
David Brodbeck -
Greg Freemyer -
jdd -
Jeffrey Taylor -
John Andersen -
Kevin Thorpe -
Ralf Müller -
Randall R Schulz -
Teruel de Campo MD