Jim Sabatke wrote:
Dylan wrote:
snip
I'd love to do that. As much as I love Linux, people who watch me go through constant upgrades to get new versions of software, along with all the grief involved, ask me pretty often why I put up with that. Windows users seldom need to upgrade their OS to run new software. Just try to compile or install an rpm of the latest gimp. It's an almost endless thread of library upgrades. I don't really mind doing it, but it does get annoying sometimes.
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
That said, I'm going to try to get them to setup a proper server.
Of course, I haven't discussed performance or security here.
A lesson on gnome! SuSE has always provided a token gnome environment that always lags behind the current version, it's basically a KDE based distro. Gnome was based on CDE and at the height of the religeous wars over the QT license, RedHat decided to use CDE. I thought OK, I'll install CDE, then reckoned someone was pulling my willy. I've worked with CDE on Solaris a heck of a lot since then and found it to be brain dead. SuSE 9.1 came with gnome 2.4, just after 2.6 was out, you've seen various updates of KDE 3.2.x and now 3.3.0, you still haven't seen a 2.6.x update of gnome and when you see it gnome will be 2.7.x or later. Gnome is not put together, it's thrown together and if you get the urge to build 2.6 apps on 2.4, buy a rod and bait and go fishing instead. I've even found that installing a new version of gnome today and trying to compile a later gnome app a few weeks on can be troublesome, you may find (as I understand there is a recent published article saying so), you spend a day downloading one dependancy after another to get your new apps to build and just may be, working, but you've probably broken a number of other apps, I've done so in the past - citing gnomemeeting which I eventually got to build, but it complained about something during execution and other apps were cratered in the process. I've even had disappointments using ULB gnome. Then there is garnome, great idea till I ran into build problems, no problem, join the garnome mailing list, that should sort it, but all I see is one release after another, none of which ever gives a clean build. So on SuSE 9.1, get a gimp 2.0.3 (latest), install that and impress your Windows buddies, try a 2.1.x source and be prepared for a bad hair day. Regards Sid.
Ah, such cynicism, Sid! But I agree - I just happened to look at the SuSE Gnome pages recently, where it excitedly tells you that Gnome 2 packages are now available! I actually use ulb-gnome and am very happy with it - I don't really like what I've seen of Gnome 2.6: it seems to be progressively losing more and more flexibility. Maybe the Novell/SuSE/Ximian alliance will improve things: I read somewhere (here I think) that Gnome is to become the default desktop for SuSE in the future. David
On Monday 23 Aug 2004 08:32, David Robertson wrote:
Jim Sabatke wrote:
Dylan wrote:
snip
I'd love to do that. As much as I love Linux, people who watch me go through constant upgrades to get new versions of software, along with all the grief involved, ask me pretty often why I put up with that. Windows users seldom need to upgrade their OS to run new software. Just try to compile or install an rpm of the latest gimp. It's an almost endless thread of library upgrades. I don't really mind doing it, but it does get annoying sometimes.
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
That said, I'm going to try to get them to setup a proper server.
Of course, I haven't discussed performance or security here.
A lesson on gnome! SuSE has always provided a token gnome environment that always lags behind the current version, it's basically a KDE based distro. Gnome was based on CDE and at the height of the religeous wars over the QT license, RedHat decided to use CDE. I thought OK, I'll install CDE, then reckoned someone was pulling my willy. I've worked with CDE on Solaris a heck of a lot since then and found it to be brain dead. SuSE 9.1 came with gnome 2.4, just after 2.6 was out, you've seen various updates of KDE 3.2.x and now 3.3.0, you still haven't seen a 2.6.x update of gnome and when you see it gnome will be 2.7.x or later. Gnome is not put together, it's thrown together and if you get the urge to build 2.6 apps on 2.4, buy a rod and bait and go fishing instead. I've even found that installing a new version of gnome today and trying to compile a later gnome app a few weeks on can be troublesome, you may find (as I understand there is a recent published article saying so), you spend a day downloading one dependancy after another to get your new apps to build and just may be, working, but you've probably broken a number of other apps, I've done so in the past - citing gnomemeeting which I eventually got to build, but it complained about something during execution and other apps were cratered in the process. I've even had disappointments using ULB gnome. Then there is garnome, great idea till I ran into build problems, no problem, join the garnome mailing list, that should sort it, but all I see is one release after another, none of which ever gives a clean build. So on SuSE 9.1, get a gimp 2.0.3 (latest), install that and impress your Windows buddies, try a 2.1.x source and be prepared for a bad hair day. Regards Sid.
Ah, such cynicism, Sid!
But I agree - I just happened to look at the SuSE Gnome pages recently, where it excitedly tells you that Gnome 2 packages are now available!
I actually use ulb-gnome and am very happy with it - I don't really like what I've seen of Gnome 2.6: it seems to be progressively losing more and more flexibility.
Maybe the Novell/SuSE/Ximian alliance will improve things: I read somewhere (here I think) that Gnome is to become the default desktop for SuSE in the future.
David All i can say is i hope they make it possible to switch to KDE cus i think a load of people are going to be very non plussed with Gnome , It drives me bananas with it need this that and other i wanted to run gramps not a hope in hell still ..
Cheers Pete. -- Linux user No: 256242 Machine No: 139931 G6NJR Pete also MSA registered "Quinton 11" A Linux Only area Happy bug hunting M$ clan PGN
On Monday 23 Aug 2004 08:32, David Robertson wrote:
Jim Sabatke wrote:
Dylan wrote: All i can say is i hope they make it possible to switch to KDE cus i think a load of people are going to be very non plussed with Gnome , It drives me bananas with it need this that and other i wanted to run gramps not a hope in hell still ..
Cheers Pete. --
Oh, I don't think there's any way they'll drop KDE - SuSE is one of the main contributors, and that is set to continue I'm sure. David
How do I get to check browsing activity on my server and therefore apply policies?
Hi All, I'm running suse 9.0 with KDE 3.2.3 which i updated using yast and help from this tutorial (http://www.suselinuxsupport.de/index.php?location=tutorials&mode=show&file=34&language=EN) I'm now trying to update to KDE 3.3, so I've downloaded all the files and added the folder to my installtion sources. But when I start the Yast system update, it does not seem to pick up the 3.3 supplementary update as it did when i upgraded to 3.2.3. Does anyone know how to sort this out. I've tried disabling the other installation sources and even swapping their order but it's not working. On the installation sources, its correctly picking up the 3.3 source folder as "supplementary KDE3.3 update". thnx in advance manulite "And the next time you consider complaining that running Lucid Emacs 19.05 via NFS from a remote Linux machine in Paraguay doesn't seem to get the background colors right, you'll know who to thank." (By Matt Welsh)
On Monday 23 August 2004 1:59 am, manulite wrote:
Hi All,
I'm running suse 9.0 with KDE 3.2.3 which i updated using yast and help from this tutorial (http://www.suselinuxsupport.de/index.php?location=tutorials&mode=show&file =34&language=EN) I'm now trying to update to KDE 3.3, so I've downloaded all the files and added the folder to my installtion sources. But when I start the Yast system update, it does not seem to pick up the 3.3 supplementary update as it did when i upgraded to 3.2.3.
Does anyone know how to sort this out. I've tried disabling the other installation sources and even swapping their order but it's not working. On the installation sources, its correctly picking up the 3.3 source folder as "supplementary KDE3.3 update".
Try 'Install and Remove Software" instead. Under 'Selections' make sure KDE is marked for update. Some times I've had to change it manually. Rich
thnx in advance
manulite
"And the next time you consider complaining that running Lucid Emacs 19.05 via NFS from a remote Linux machine in Paraguay doesn't seem to get the background colors right, you'll know who to thank." (By Matt Welsh)
-- C. Richard Matson
David Robertson wrote:
Jim Sabatke wrote:
Dylan wrote:
snip
I'd love to do that. As much as I love Linux, people who watch me go through constant upgrades to get new versions of software, along with all the grief involved, ask me pretty often why I put up with that. Windows users seldom need to upgrade their OS to run new software. Just try to compile or install an rpm of the latest gimp. It's an almost endless thread of library upgrades. I don't really mind doing it, but it does get annoying sometimes.
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
That said, I'm going to try to get them to setup a proper server.
Of course, I haven't discussed performance or security here.
A lesson on gnome! SuSE has always provided a token gnome environment that always lags behind the current version, it's basically a KDE based distro. Gnome was based on CDE and at the height of the religeous wars over the QT license, RedHat decided to use CDE. I thought OK, I'll install CDE, then reckoned someone was pulling my willy. I've worked with CDE on Solaris a heck of a lot since then and found it to be brain dead. SuSE 9.1 came with gnome 2.4, just after 2.6 was out, you've seen various updates of KDE 3.2.x and now 3.3.0, you still haven't seen a 2.6.x update of gnome and when you see it gnome will be 2.7.x or later. Gnome is not put together, it's thrown together and if you get the urge to build 2.6 apps on 2.4, buy a rod and bait and go fishing instead. I've even found that installing a new version of gnome today and trying to compile a later gnome app a few weeks on can be troublesome, you may find (as I understand there is a recent published article saying so), you spend a day downloading one dependancy after another to get your new apps to build and just may be, working, but you've probably broken a number of other apps, I've done so in the past - citing gnomemeeting which I eventually got to build, but it complained about something during execution and other apps were cratered in the process. I've even had disappointments using ULB gnome. Then there is garnome, great idea till I ran into build problems, no problem, join the garnome mailing list, that should sort it, but all I see is one release after another, none of which ever gives a clean build. So on SuSE 9.1, get a gimp 2.0.3 (latest), install that and impress your Windows buddies, try a 2.1.x source and be prepared for a bad hair day. Regards Sid.
Ah, such cynicism, Sid!
But I agree - I just happened to look at the SuSE Gnome pages recently, where it excitedly tells you that Gnome 2 packages are now available!
I actually use ulb-gnome and am very happy with it - I don't really like what I've seen of Gnome 2.6: it seems to be progressively losing more and more flexibility.
Maybe the Novell/SuSE/Ximian alliance will improve things: I read somewhere (here I think) that Gnome is to become the default desktop for SuSE in the future.
David
Definitely Cynical Sid! Gnome does not seem to allow the flexibility of KDE though there are some great apps written for it. It just may be that the distro historically doesn't do a full supporting job of gnome. I occasionally start a second session with gnome. I shall have a think and may be try the update, hope it will start a session and run a few key apps. I've read often of the things that cause dislike of gnome 2.6, but I can probably put up with these as I use a gnome session only a few times per year. The statement seemed to suggest that SuSE distros are to put support for gnome on the same footing as for kde, here's hoping. If KDE suffers, I may switch my usage from 2 Mandrake boxen and 3 SuSE to 3 Mandrake and 2 SuSE. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =====LINUX ONLY USED HERE=====
<etc>
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
And then hit Ctrl-Alt-Del a few times. And then hit reset a few times - and then watch in horror as the entire plot spirals towards the ground with immense orange flames pouring from all engines ... any parachutes? No, bad luck ... the friendly XP adware and spyware that infects such systems within minutes of take off probably nicked them for the silk. Back up at 30,000 feet I turn the methanol injection back off, throttle down and turn for home to load up some more belts of .50 calibre. All penguins return to base, re-arm and re-fuel ... -- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk
Boy there are some that get a little carried away. I love linux but
to even begin to compare it to Windows in a user friendly works more
than not conversation is insane. Linux is great if you know what you
are doing, Windows is great when you don't. It works more than not
unlike Linux which is a pain to get running.
With that said, once linux is running like you want, it works forever,
or until you upgrade something where you usually have to start back
over. Its getting better and better everyday, but to think its ready
for prime time on user desktops is insane at best.
my 2 cents.
glenn
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:30:46 +0100, Fergus Wilde
<etc>
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
And then hit Ctrl-Alt-Del a few times. And then hit reset a few times - and then watch in horror as the entire plot spirals towards the ground with immense orange flames pouring from all engines ... any parachutes? No, bad luck ... the friendly XP adware and spyware that infects such systems within minutes of take off probably nicked them for the silk. Back up at 30,000 feet I turn the methanol injection back off, throttle down and turn for home to load up some more belts of .50 calibre. All penguins return to base, re-arm and re-fuel ...
-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB
Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Monday 23 August 2004 15:39, you wrote:
Boy there are some that get a little carried away. I love linux but to even begin to compare it to Windows in a user friendly works more than not conversation is insane. Linux is great if you know what you are doing, Windows is great when you don't. It works more than not unlike Linux which is a pain to get running.
Sorry, I was just mucking about. Though I slightly mean it, in that yes, Linux lets you know that you'll have to put some work in to get the system you want, where windows pretends it's all going to be just putting in your disk and clicking - but it rarely is as simple as that, is it? One of the main UK pc comics was advising a reader last week that he should consider downloading 3 separate progs and their updates just to shift the spyware he'd picked up in a weekend's e-shopping.
With that said, once linux is running like you want, it works forever, or until you upgrade something where you usually have to start back over. Its getting better and better everyday, but to think its ready for prime time on user desktops is insane at best.
Maybe - but is Windows? Depends what you want to do, I suppose, but although the Windows users I know have different problems from the ones I have, they certainly don't appear to have fewer. SuSE's been my prime time desktop for several years now. Best Fergus
my 2 cents.
glenn
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:30:46 +0100, Fergus Wilde
wrote:
<etc>
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
And then hit Ctrl-Alt-Del a few times. And then hit reset a few times - and then watch in horror as the entire plot spirals towards the ground with immense orange flames pouring from all engines ... any parachutes? No, bad luck ... the friendly XP adware and spyware that infects such systems within minutes of take off probably nicked them for the silk. Back up at 30,000 feet I turn the methanol injection back off, throttle down and turn for home to load up some more belts of .50 calibre. All penguins return to base, re-arm and re-fuel ...
-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB
Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797 http://www.chethams.org.uk
Sorry, I was just mucking about. Though I slightly mean it, in that yes, Linux lets you know that you'll have to put some work in to get the system you want, where windows pretends it's all going to be just putting in your disk and clicking - but it rarely is as simple as that, is it? One of the main UK pc comics was advising a reader last week that he should consider downloading 3 separate progs and their updates just to shift the spyware he'd picked up in a weekend's e-shopping.
Its ok to joke around, I just get tired of people skewing the facts. First off before you get too carried away with the number of problems with windows you need to keep numbers straight. Linux doesn't hold a very large share of the market which means there are millions more users in windows than linux. Secondly, my hard drive crashed on Monday of last week. I had to reload everything. My windows box is 100% up and running after running install and loading the updates from the web. My linux box running SUSE 9.1 still is not working as the CD player doesn't play music CD's and the USB external drive I have locks the entire system up so hard that only a hard boot will get things going again. So while I'm not saying windows is perfect, anyone has to concede that it does a lot better job handling hardware issues than linux does. And you need to keep in mind that I hate windows. I despise having to boot to it, but when the programs I need won't run in linux and the linux counterparts crash and don't handle things correctly, what other choice do I have...
Maybe - but is Windows? Depends what you want to do, I suppose, but although the Windows users I know have different problems from the ones I have, they certainly don't appear to have fewer. SuSE's been my prime time desktop for several years now. Best Fergus
Again, keep the numbers straight with percentages. Would you think Linux could handle the worlds populous on home users and office workers computers? I dont' think we're anywhere close to that process. I am impressed with the improvements but there are still way too many hardware issues and lack of available software to think it will happen anytime soon. Just compare Photoshop CS to the latest version of Gimp and you'll get my point. glenn
my 2 cents.
glenn
On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:30:46 +0100, Fergus Wilde
wrote:
<etc>
>Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. >Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the >rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
And then hit Ctrl-Alt-Del a few times. And then hit reset a few times - and then watch in horror as the entire plot spirals towards the ground with immense orange flames pouring from all engines ... any parachutes? No, bad luck ... the friendly XP adware and spyware that infects such systems within minutes of take off probably nicked them for the silk. Back up at 30,000 feet I turn the methanol injection back off, throttle down and turn for home to load up some more belts of .50 calibre. All penguins return to base, re-arm and re-fuel ...
-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB
Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
-- Fergus Wilde Chetham's Library Long Millgate Manchester M3 1SB
Tel: +44 161 834 7961 Fax: +44 161 839 5797
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Lost track of the main subject here but... On 2004/08/23, at 23:58, Glenn Hancock wrote:
Sorry, I was just mucking about. Though I slightly mean it, in that yes, Linux lets you know that you'll have to put some work in to get the system you want, where windows pretends it's all going to be just putting in your disk and clicking - but it rarely is as simple as that, is it? One of the main UK pc comics was advising a reader last week that he should consider downloading 3 separate progs and their updates just to shift the spyware he'd picked up in a weekend's e-shopping.
Its ok to joke around, I just get tired of people skewing the facts. First off before you get too carried away with the number of problems with windows you need to keep numbers straight. Linux doesn't hold a very large share of the market which means there are millions more users in windows than linux.
For the desktop, you mean?
Secondly, my hard drive crashed on Monday of last week. I had to reload everything. My windows box is 100% up and running after running install and loading the updates from the web. My linux box running SUSE 9.1 still is not working as the CD player doesn't play music CD's and the USB external drive I have locks the entire system up so hard that only a hard boot will get things going again.
I had it the other way around here.
So while I'm not saying windows is perfect, anyone has to concede that it does a lot better job handling hardware issues than linux does.
Well, that's because the hardware vendors provide the drivers. Tell them to support linux as much as they support Windows so you won't have any hardware issues. (But let's be honest, there are times that not even supported products work properly under Windows...)
And you need to keep in mind that I hate windows.
:) I don't hate it myself, I just don't use it that often. (There are at least two software/programs I need it for...)
I despise having to boot to it, but when the programs I need won't run in linux and the linux counterparts crash and don't handle things correctly, what other choice do I have...
Try OS X ;)
Maybe - but is Windows? Depends what you want to do, I suppose, but although the Windows users I know have different problems from the ones I have, they certainly don't appear to have fewer. SuSE's been my prime time desktop for several years now. Best Fergus
Again, keep the numbers straight with percentages. Would you think Linux could handle the worlds populous on home users and office workers computers? I dont' think we're anywhere close to that process.
Maybe not, not yet at least. But I know many places/countries where people/government agencies are now moving towards linux or OS X.
I am impressed with the improvements but there are still way too many hardware issues and lack of available software to think it will happen anytime soon. Just compare Photoshop CS to the latest version of Gimp and you'll get my point.
Are you talking about price here? :)
glenn
-- - E -
Fergus Wilde wrote:
<etc>
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
And then hit Ctrl-Alt-Del a few times. And then hit reset a few times - and then watch in horror as the entire plot spirals towards the ground with immense orange flames pouring from all engines ... any parachutes? No, bad luck ... the friendly XP adware and spyware that infects such systems within minutes of take off probably nicked them for the silk. Back up at 30,000 feet I turn the methanol injection back off, throttle down and turn for home to load up some more belts of .50 calibre. All penguins return to base, re-arm and re-fuel ...
Hehehe! You've got it all wrong Fergus, that's the beauty of XP. As Linus said, he was going to build crash features into Linux, but a Redmond company owns the patents. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =====LINUX ONLY USED HERE=====
Fergus Wilde wrote:
<etc>
Point is, XP users generally love their systems because it's easy. Installing software is easy. They put a disk in and it does the rest. They just need to hit "next" a few times.
And then hit Ctrl-Alt-Del a few times. And then hit reset a few times - and then watch in horror as the entire plot spirals towards the ground with immense orange flames pouring from all engines ... any parachutes? No, bad luck ... the friendly XP adware and spyware that infects such systems within minutes of take off probably nicked them for the silk. Back up at 30,000 feet I turn the methanol injection back off, throttle down and turn for home to load up some more belts of .50 calibre. All penguins return to base, re-arm and re-fuel ...
*laughing* Yes, that's all true. I help too many friends with Windows problems to believe otherwise. I believe Linux to be a far superior OS. My point was that upgrading to new app levels can be really painful. -- -- Jim Sabatke Hire Me!! - See my resume at http://my.execpc.com/~jsabatke Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. NOTE: Please do not email me any attachments with Microsoft extensions. They are deleted on my ISP's server before I ever see them, and no bounce message is sent.
On Monday 23 August 2004 11:06 am, Jim Sabatke wrote:
Yes, that's all true. I help too many friends with Windows problems to believe otherwise. I believe Linux to be a far superior OS. My point was that upgrading to new app levels can be really painful. I'm gonna get killed here, but what the heck...it's Monday.
I have 7 users on XP here and while spyware and adware is a problem, I must say that life has been pretty good with XP. I'm the only Linux user here and must admit that security matters are easier in Linux....but to have these folks switch would require more time (hand-holding) that I can afford. All in all, I don't have too many gripes with XP. I have to say that I have a small network and I'm sure it's different with larger networks and people screwing with stuff all the time....so I imagine I have it easier. -- Tom Nielsen Neuro Logic Systems, Inc. 1.805.389.5435 x18 www.neuro-logic.com
participants (11)
-
- Edwin - -
C. Richard Matson -
David Robertson -
Fergus Wilde -
Glenn Hancock -
Jim Sabatke -
manulite -
Paul Ikanza -
peter Nikolic -
Sid Boyce -
Tom Nielsen