On 5/18/2013 2:39 PM, Billie Walsh wrote:

On 05/18/2013 01:10 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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Billie Walsh said the following on 05/18/2013 09:29 AM:

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How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3?

The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die.

I might, if you'll permit, make the automatic and permanent signature block for my postings to this list ...

I have no idea what your talking about, however, you have my permission.

I think he wants add "The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. " to his signature " -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/18/2013 02:37 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

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"The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. "

---

Change is not a constant though. Gradual change allows adaptation and evolution. History and the universe are full of examples where change happened, and it wiped out entire species and planets.

Change is not what is at issue. *speed* of change* and how long people have to adapt is. In nature, change that allows survival to happen, takes a LONG time. Changes that happen in a few weeks or months usually result in large scale extinctions.

A solar flare, moon hitting the planet, bullet in the head are all examples of nearly instantaneous change that most humans would not survive. Are you suggesting it is unreasonable for us to NOT want such changes?

I came to Linux when KDE# was perfect, or very nearly so. It was fantastic. THEN, change happened. Was I happy about it. Not particularly. I was more than happy as things were. I decided to install a KDE4 system to my spare computer to play with but stay with KDE3 as long as possible. They say that life is what happens while your busy making other plans. Life happened. My primary computer died, D ... E ... D dead. Took out EVERYTHING. The magic smoke escaped. What to do, what to do. I have a perfectly working, brand new install of KDE4 with everything I needed already on it. While I acquired a new computer I was pushed head first into KDE4 when it was first released, at best a Beta version in my opinion. Sink or swim, I was in it. It was a case of adapt or die. I chose to adapt and not spend all my time whining about it. When I got my new system built up I went with KDE4. Five years later and I find that KDE4 is just as good as, better in some ways than, KDE3. The universe, and everything in it, is in a constant state of change, trending towards entropy. -- “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler said the following on 05/22/2013 01:47 AM:

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

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It is my understanding that there are distros out there that are still using KDE3. Just a thought.

And openSUSE is one of them. No one is asking you to use KDE3. I use it. I prefer it. Even now KDE4 is not something I like(& I've used the current version). There is also the Trinity project which is working on keeping KDE3 going.

Are you gonna complain because my son's laptop runs XP, which is a 12 year old operating system? Or that I run MacOS 9.2.2 on my Powerbook 3400?

What exactly was the point of this? Those of use who use kde3 have a mailing list we use now. Linux is about choice. I CHOOSE not to use KDE4(I could care less about the "semantic desktop" or any of the other useless features added to it), Gnome3 or the others. Get over it.

The point is, Larry, that you are 100% correct. As you say, no-one is forcing me to use KDE3. Likewise you are making it clear that no-one is forcing you to use KDE4. The point the Billie and others make is that there are some people who DON'T GET IT and think that they don't have the option you are making, that there is a conspiracy against them, rather than a natural line of development. I can think of many valid reasons to stick with MacOS and if I was a Windows user I'd still be using XP for the simple reason that the subsequent changes have to do with marketing pizazz rather than any read development. You and I may disagree about KDE4, but that's fine. I like parts of KDE4 so much over KDE3 that I can live with the parts of KDE4 that I can't disable, and I *can* disable most of them. Options again, eh? :-) I've been called 'intolerant' a couple of times this week because I've adopted your attitude of not seeing the point of bitching when there are choices and saying "Get Over it". I'm happy to join you in your "intolerance" for such petty nonsense and do wish that we could remove the moaning and bitching about change -- oh and some of the misinformation promulgated by the moaners and bitchers -- from this list not only because they don't contribute but because their antagonistic attitude poisons the forum and discourages the less technically advanced. -- The more laws and restrictions there are, The poorer people become. The sharper men's weapons, The more trouble in the land. The more ingenious and clever men are, The more strange things happen. The more rules and regulations, The more thieves and robbers. -- The Tao Te Ching -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: my son's laptop runs XP, which is a 12

By the way, the change from kde2 to 3 did not take 5 years... It was widely accepted much more earlier. I don't even remember it, just some excitement at a new version, no big deal.

Having used S.u.S.E. since v5.3 and KDE since v1.0, I can honestly saying that while there were improvements & changes between v1.x -> 2.x & 2.x -> 3.x, it wasn't a radical rewrite that basically through out the manual to start over. I agree with many that KDE4 should have been called something else since it was basically a replacement not an upgrade.

If after 5 years there is still "whinning" about kde4, then there must be something not right somewhere... :-p

I don't recall that, but back then I wasn't on-line all the time & wasn't a part of the community. I remember swearing more about @$%&! dependency hell than anything else. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 22 May 2013 13:44:55 -0400 Larry Stotler wrote:

I agree with many that KDE4 should have been called something else since it was basically a replacement not an upgrade.

While it was a lot different with not much compatibility with KDE3, naming it KDE4 was logical consequence of being based on Qt4, like KDE3 being based on Qt3. The basic problem was how it was introduced to the people. It was pushed on all users in order to have larger user base that will test and report bugs, which will result in faster development. Problem was that majority of computer users have no actual experience in debugging and can't create useful bug reports. What they will do is just instal another desktop option, distro, or go back to Windows. That was my path when I had minimal knowledge and no idea that there are help options like Usenet and mail lists. In general any change in software that introduces new concepts is painful as people must change habits, which is not as easy as to create new one. Add to that problems with user setups that are not easily transferable to the new system, bugs in a new software and massive change, and you will lose many existing users in the process. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh said the following on 05/26/2013 08:42 AM:

It also didn't help that KDE4 was foisted on the users when still a Beta at best and most likely a late stage Alpha.

What ever happened to the “many eyes make all bugs shallow” ideal of Open Source, then? Or perhaps more sensibly and wordily: “Many eyes” identifying the issues, or a large enough beta-tester base so that almost every problem will be characterized, and enough developers working on fixing issues so that a fix can be developed and deployed. There's another adage that might apply to the way KDE4 has worked out "Release early, release often". Or would you rather the Microsoft way where the alpha and beta testing leave many critical bugs and security holes unpatched, critical fixes every Tuesday and intermittently released "roll-ups"? -- "Just because something is configured 'correctly' doesn't mean that the system is actually secure..." -- Ed Skoudis, co-founder of Inguardians -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/26/2013 08:05 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Billie Walsh said the following on 05/26/2013 08:42 AM:

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It also didn't help that KDE4 was foisted on the users when still a Beta at best and most likely a late stage Alpha.

What ever happened to the “many eyes make all bugs shallow” ideal of Open Source, then?

Or perhaps more sensibly and wordily:

“Many eyes” identifying the issues, or a large enough beta-tester base so that almost every problem will be characterized, and enough developers working on fixing issues so that a fix can be developed and deployed.

There's another adage that might apply to the way KDE4 has worked out "Release early, release often".

Or would you rather the Microsoft way where the alpha and beta testing leave many critical bugs and security holes unpatched, critical fixes every Tuesday and intermittently released "roll-ups"?

If someone signs up to be a Beta Tester they go in with open eyes and knowing what to expect. To just dump a late stage Alpha, or early stage Beta, on the public is hardly sporting. No wonder so many users got..................UPSET, shall we say, [ The preferred word might not be acceptable on the list. ] and abandoned KDE entirely. A large chunk of what was expected to be there wasn't ready at all yet so it wasn't released for almost six months after the official "release" of KDE4. Half of what was there totally sucked. Certain distros were do out with long term releases so KDE4 was dumped early to meet the deadline of the releases. My point with this thread was that five years on people are still whining and moaning about it. There are options. If KDE3 is your dream then there are distros that meet your dream. That's one of the great things about Linux. There is something for everyone and you have choices. If you don't like something, or it doesn't work for you, find one that does fit your needs/desires. I didn't like KDE4 at first any more than anyone else. The big difference is that I didn't whine and moan about it I just hunkered down and learned how to work with it, and make it work with me. Five years in I'm quite happy with one exception, no Quanta+. Not a deal breaker, but a pet peeve. I have Bluefish. Not up to Quanta+ standards but usable. -- “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh said the following on 05/26/2013 10:44 AM:

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If someone signs up to be a Beta Tester they go in with open eyes and knowing what to expect. To just dump a late stage Alpha, or early stage Beta, on the public is hardly sporting. No wonder so many users got..................UPSET, shall we say, [ The preferred word might not be acceptable on the list. ] and abandoned KDE entirely. A large chunk of what was expected to be there wasn't ready at all yet so it wasn't released for almost six months after the official "release" of KDE4. Half of what was there totally sucked. Certain distros were do out with long term releases so KDE4 was dumped early to meet the deadline of the releases.

IIR there was nothing covert about KDE4. No-one was saying that it was a completed product; all the warnings were there -- "use at your own risk".

My point with this thread was that five years on people are still whining and moaning about it.

And what are they whining about? If they are whining that it WAS - as in back when - released as "beta" as you say above, then my view is GET OVER IT Its like Mrs Havisham in Dickens who wont let go, never removing her wedding dress, leaving the wedding cake uneaten on the table, never moving on getting on with life. If they are moaning and whining that the KDE4.10.3 of May 2013 is unstable and broken, then they obviously aren't paying attention and using it. If they are saying that KDE4 isn't KDE3, well so what? The Linux kernel of today isn't the Linux kernel of when KDE3 was released. Sometimes things pass a watershed. The elasticity of change is reached and evolution has to give way to revolution. So what *ARE* they still whining about?

There are options. If KDE3 is your dream then there are distros that meet your dream. That's one of the great things about Linux. There is something for everyone and you have choices. If you don't like something, or it doesn't work for you, find one that does fit your needs/desires.

Indeed. So stop whining that one that doesn't fit you needs doesn't fit your needs and go with one that does.

I didn't like KDE4 at first any more than anyone else. The big difference is that I didn't whine and moan about it I just hunkered down and learned how to work with it, and make it work with me. Five years in I'm quite happy with one exception, no Quanta+. Not a deal breaker, but a pet peeve. I have Bluefish. Not up to Quanta+ standards but usable.

YMMV. Some projects 'die' when the maintainer/developer stops working on them an no-one takes over. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen said the following on 05/26/2013 02:27 PM:

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So what*ARE* they still whining about? Having to change and to adapt. That things don't work like they used to. Lack of productivity.

Oh, you mean like EVERY time Microsoft updates something or gives a new release, be it of Windows, Office or anything else. Not just the end users but the sysadmins too. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dirk Gently said the following on 05/26/2013 04:04 PM:

So you're tellnig us that becuase Microsfot engages in this abhorrant practice, that the KDE team should do it, also?

No, quite the opposite. Microsoft do this and people accept it. In fact companies pay for retraining because every time MS has done it they have made such retraining necessary. Such retraining is a very lucrative industry for the MS-hangers-on ecosystem. (Alternatively you could say that MS has invested in users "learned [or acquired] disability[1]" to adapt to change.) OK, so the way MS works is that even people like sysadmin are taught what buttons on the GUI to press whereas the *NIX community works on principles and patterns and is more adaptive. Well everyone except for KDE3 die-hards. [1] A friend saw his children go though this when he moved from one province to another. The school system had a lower standard for the same age-grade so his children took a step backward. The school system was not wiling to admit that they were 'advanced for their age' under the new regime. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

On 5/26/2013 1:34 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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OK, so the way MS works is that even people like sysadmin are taught what buttons on the GUI to press whereas the *NIX community works on principles and patterns and is more adaptive.

Wait, What?

That is pure bafflegab!

Principles and patterns? Really? Listen to yourself!!!

There has been long running discussions on this list about massive changes to just about every component of Linux in general and Opensuse in specific over the last year. Sound systems, file systems, indexing systems, Start up systems, udev, device naming conventions, the list goes on and on

The only Principal you can count on is instability. The only pattern is change for change sake, and change begetting change.

What used to be a few config files in /etc that you could actually get your head around and manage with nothing but a text editor is now massive levels of indirection with the developers adding more indirection daily, and the text config files being mostly ignored or supplanted and overridden, or chopped up into a dozen little files in a directory.

Principles long in place have been swept aside. Patterns? I really have not clue what you could possibly be thinking here.

More Adaptive? Perhaps by adaptive you mean Screw you peon users, we are changing, you better adapt or go write your own distro, and don't bother filing any bug reports.

This is like what happens to states after the liberal in California and New York, having soiled their own nests with so many idiotic regulations and taxes that CA and NY become unlivable hell-holes, flee to a new state, and start implementing the same STUPID idea which ruined CA and NY... Now we have the same dynamics coming from former Windows developers... they flee the constant "change for the sake of change" and "can't configure things with text files" idiocy which makes Windows the pile of dog-parf that it is, and then come to Linux and are constructing the same steaming piles of dog shit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/26/2013 01:13 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Billie Walsh said the following on 05/26/2013 10:44 AM:

...

...

If someone signs up to be a Beta Tester they go in with open eyes and knowing what to expect. To just dump a late stage Alpha, or early stage Beta, on the public is hardly sporting. No wonder so many users got..................UPSET, shall we say, [ The preferred word might not be acceptable on the list. ] and abandoned KDE entirely. A large chunk of what was expected to be there wasn't ready at all yet so it wasn't released for almost six months after the official "release" of KDE4. Half of what was there totally sucked. Certain distros were do out with long term releases so KDE4 was dumped early to meet the deadline of the releases.

IIR there was nothing covert about KDE4. No-one was saying that it was a completed product; all the warnings were there -- "use at your own risk".

Some distros didn't give an option. It was KDE4 or don't upgrade to their new LTS release. It seems I remember that Opensuse did offer an option but others didn't.

...

My point with this thread was that five years on people are still whining and moaning about it.

And what are they whining about?

If they are whining that it WAS - as in back when - released as "beta" as you say above, then my view is

GET OVER IT

Its like Mrs Havisham in Dickens who wont let go, never removing her wedding dress, leaving the wedding cake uneaten on the table, never moving on getting on with life.

If they are moaning and whining that the KDE4.10.3 of May 2013 is unstable and broken, then they obviously aren't paying attention and using it.

If they are saying that KDE4 isn't KDE3, well so what? The Linux kernel of today isn't the Linux kernel of when KDE3 was released.

Sometimes things pass a watershed. The elasticity of change is reached and evolution has to give way to revolution.

So what *ARE* they still whining about?

There was just a thread dealing with, "This [ what it was I don't remember now ] still doesn't work like it did in KDE3." Well DUH! It isn't KDE3. There was another to the effect, "KDE4 still won't work for me. KDE3 worked just fine." Well, there are distros that still use KDE3.

...

There are options. If KDE3 is your dream then there are distros that meet your dream. That's one of the great things about Linux. There is something for everyone and you have choices. If you don't like something, or it doesn't work for you, find one that does fit your needs/desires.

Indeed. So stop whining that one that doesn't fit you needs doesn't fit your needs and go with one that does.

...

I didn't like KDE4 at first any more than anyone else. The big difference is that I didn't whine and moan about it I just hunkered down and learned how to work with it, and make it work with me. Five years in I'm quite happy with one exception, no Quanta+. Not a deal breaker, but a pet peeve. I have Bluefish. Not up to Quanta+ standards but usable.

YMMV. Some projects 'die' when the maintainer/developer stops working on them an no-one takes over.

That's kind of where I am now. There was an attempt by a couple people to re-write Quanta+ for QT4 but I think it was a bigger probelm than they could deal with while dealing with the necessities of living. My hat is off for the attempt. I have moved on to Bluefish and have learned how to make it work for me. Still not Quanta+ but very usable. Now. It's just a shame that the KDE devs have decided to kill off the best HTML editor. -- “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-26 14:13 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

And what are they whining about?

1-KDE3 function entirely missing from KDE4 2-KDE3 features that just worked replaced with KDE4 features that work poorly 3-KDE3 apps that worked well replaced with KDE4 apps that work significantly less well 4-effort required to eradicate all enabled-by-default bling 5-effort required to not have semantic desktop consuming any resources -- The wise are thankful for & to those who keep working that which was superceded by a putatively "improved" rebuilt from scratch product. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/26/2013 03:56 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 26. Mai 2013, 14:13:02 schrieb Anton Aylward:

...

So what *ARE* they still whining about? Forget about this topic. It is impossible to please everyone. In fact, it is a waste of resources to try to do so.

It's absolutely normal that things change and it's as normal that a project loses users because they do not like x or y. Some users get stuck on x, some on y. Some users think that their way of doing things is the most productive and are not willing to adapt to new ways. Some confuse lack of productivity with lack of flexibility to learn new ways. In fact some people are not willing to adapt at all to any change and would like the world to stand still or adapt to them instead.

As long as the project gains more users than it loses nobody should care about those left behind. And since nobody is forced to use any version of KDE, distro respectively, one does not even have to feel bad about those.

The only thing that is indeed worrying is that some people confuse packaged code with maintained code and that openSUSE offers packages for code which is unmaintained for many years by now. However one has to acknowledge that the latter is at least a bit less bad than changing code one has absolutely no clue about as the trinity project does.

Sven Now a story from the "other side".................

Now sons' work place - a garage that works on all kinds of cars, trucks, vans, suv's, just about anything......IS STILL USING "DOS" for their accounting system, a dot-matrix printer and that system is not connected to the Internet, because he does not want the hassles of EVER dealing with viruses and such. I've even tried to get him on Linux with using the DOSBOX emulator - NOPE, WON'T TOUCH IT. Now that's REALLY STUBBORN !!!!!!!!!!! -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ - Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding (314) 838-5587 / dahechler@att.net / www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com Home & Business user of Linux - 13 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/26/2013 1:56 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

As long as the project gains more users than it loses nobody should care about those left behind.

Is there any evidence of growth? http://www.happyassassin.net/2013/03/07/some-sad-numbers-on-how-linux-deskto...

Net Market Share (NMS) says that in January 2008, Linux usage was at 0.72%; in February 2013, it sits at 1.04%.

Looking froward from 2008 that's almost 30% growth. Impressive, till you read that

The earliest numbers are March 2003 – Linux 2.2%, Mac 1.8%, Windows all the rest. By September 2004, Linux was up to 3.1%,

-- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/26/2013 08:32 PM, Dirk Gently wrote:

Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Sonntag, 26. Mai 2013, 14:13:02 schrieb Anton Aylward:

...

So what *ARE* they still whining about?

Forget about this topic. It is impossible to please everyone. In fact, it is a waste of resources to try to do so.

It's people like you who are part of the damned problem.

Change for the sake of change, with little to no, or even "negative" benefit, and telling everyone who doesn't buy into the dubious changes to either shut up for fuck off. why don't you all just shut up! I won't even see if you get this message, because everything with this topic is now going by the Thuderbird fllter routine to trash.

--doug -- Blessed are the peacemakers..for they shall be shot at from both sides. --A.M.Greeley -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/26/2013 4:56 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 26. Mai 2013, 14:13:02 schrieb Anton Aylward: Some users think that their way of doing things is the most productive and are not willing to adapt to new ways. Some confuse lack of productivity with lack of flexibility to learn new ways. In fact some people are not willing to adapt at all to any change and would like the world to stand still or adapt to them instead.

Some douchebags confuse any objection with pathological unsubstantiated resistance to change. I don't use either kde 3 or 4 but this attitude is found in all contexts and is equally offensive in all of them. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko wrote:

On Wed, 22 May 2013 13:44:55 -0400 Larry Stotler wrote:

...

I agree with many that KDE4 should have been called something else since it was basically a replacement not an upgrade.

While it was a lot different with not much compatibility with KDE3, naming it KDE4 was logical consequence of being based on Qt4, like KDE3 being based on Qt3.

The basic problem was how it was introduced to the people.

It was pushed on all users in order to have larger user base that will test and report bugs, which will result in faster development. Problem was that majority of computer users have no actual experience in debugging and can't create useful bug reports.

The 2nd largest majority is the office user and they need something that just works. Without the occasional learning curve to throw a spanner in the works.

In general any change in software that introduces new concepts is painful as people must change habits, which is not as easy as to create new one.

Big plus 1.

Add to that problems with user setups that are not easily transferable to the new system, bugs in a new software and massive change, and you will lose many existing users in the process.

It is amazing how often the user is forgotten .... -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free DNS hosting, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/22/2013 12:47 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

It is my understanding that there are distros out there that are still using KDE3. Just a thought. And openSUSE is one of them. No one is asking you to use KDE3. I use it. I prefer it. Even now KDE4 is not something I like(& I've used

On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Billie Walsh wrote: the current version). There is also the Trinity project which is working on keeping KDE3 going.

Are you gonna complain because my son's laptop runs XP, which is a 12 year old operating system? Or that I run MacOS 9.2.2 on my Powerbook 3400?

What exactly was the point of this? Those of use who use kde3 have a mailing list we use now. Linux is about choice. I CHOOSE not to use KDE4(I could care less about the "semantic desktop" or any of the other useless features added to it), Gnome3 or the others. Get over it.

My thought was that instead of sitting around whining how "I don't like this" or " I don't like that" about KDE4 just use a distro that still has KDE3 if that is what you want. Like you say, it's all about choices. I didn't particularly want to start to use KDE4 when I did. It was kind of pushed on me by circumstances beyond my control. I didn't like it at first but I chose not to whine about it and just get on with learning how to do what I wanted to accomplish. -- “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/22/2013 11:02 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:

Now, I will grant that it isn't a straightforward process to make KDE3 work under 12.x, but it takes less effort than trying to make KDE4 work.

Larry, give it a rest. The above is total nonsense. That you can find a couple oddball corner cases that satisfy your need to make mole-hills into insurmountable mountains does not mean that it takes any effort to make KDE4 "work". The fact that for every one of you curmudgeons shooing people off your digital lawn there are hundreds of thousands running KDE4 today on at least a half-dozen different distros should give you a clue that any problems you have getting KDE4 to work are your personal PEBCAK issues. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/22/2013 11:38 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:

Quit trying to get me to use KDE4.

I could give a rats ass what you use. I just don't agree with you posting ridiculous claims that KDE4 takes any significant effort to get it to work. A boatload of school children around here install it with no problem as part of their Computer Club. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2013-05-22 at 11:51 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

On 5/22/2013 11:38 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

Quit trying to get me to use KDE4.

I could give a rats ass what you use.

I just don't agree with you posting ridiculous claims that KDE4 takes any significant effort to get it to work.

But I do. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlGdY9YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wu8wCfWUJlooLNAvvm4qtQuT1mnBt0 i5kAn0d+OHbYZ/8nYlgoXbSX0yeIOvG2 =edfg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler said the following on 05/22/2013 02:38 PM:

KDE4 has stuff I dont need nor want.

Same here. So I turn it off. Turning it off is easy.

I don't see the need for Akondi(I don't use KMail or any KDE PIM stuff),

I don't use them either. So I turn them off or simply don't install them.

I don't need Phonon(I

What's "phonon"?

I don't NEED a semantic/social desktop - I don't use Facebook or Google+ either.

Ditto, but I'm unclear what that has to do with KDE4. I use Google+ but that's all in Firefox, nothing to do with KDE4. I use it on another machine as well, with firefox and xfce. I don't see your point.

I don't need nepomuk/stringi because I don't NEED to search my files.

Same here; I organize them :-) All very good, Larry, but so far you've not said anything about why someone, even yourself, shouldn't use KDE4. The point about most things in Linux is that they are there if you want them. LDAP is there if I want it; I don't so I don't enable/install/run it. Big Deal.

I don't tell people not to use KDE4. I stated why I DON'T use it.

Yes, but I can say all you said and I *DO* use KDE4. Turning things off - or simply not installing them in the first place, was less effort than I put into configuring KDE3 back when I was using that. Not installing things is a good way not to use them :-)

Back in the day with KDE2/3 we had something called KPersonalizer that started on the first login that allowd turing off eye-candy & bling.

Its now done in 'systemsettings'. New name, slightly more functionality, arranged a bit differently. Systemsetting -> desktop effects -> general -> enable

I BEGGED for that to be ported over to KDE4 to help those like ME that don't want that crap to have an easy way to turn it off. Never happened.

Of course not; Back to your point about "it shouldn't have been called KDE...". With a different architecture you can't simply 'port over' the low level stuff like that.

WHY should I WASTE MY TIME learning to customize something I don't see any advantage or compelling reason to use. That's MY Choice.

Ah. This sounds very like Microsoft re-designing the GUI for MS-Office on each release and people no longer being able to use it because the GUI is different. Or people not being able to move from Microsoft 97/98/XP to any version of Linux/any DM because the GUI is different. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billie Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 22 May 2013, Anton Aylward wrote:

Turning things off - or simply not installing them in the first place, was less effort than I put into configuring KDE3 back when I was using that. Not installing things is a good way not to use them :-)

Not installing things is only possible on single user systems. You have to install it completely if at least one user wants it. In practice this means for me that I have dozens of useless kde4 daemon processes running on any machine where a user had started a kde4 program. Many of these processes even survive when the user logs off. IMO it's a real pain. If it's possible to configure it to be less painful then this should be done by default ... cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Same here. So I turn it off. Turning it off is easy. Yes, but I can say all you said and I *DO* use KDE4. Turning things off - or simply not installing them in the first place, was less effort than I put into configuring KDE3 back when I was using that. Not installing things is a good way not to use them :-)

I tried that for years & got dependency hell so I gave up(though I have looked at SUSEStudio as a way to do this). But, when you get right down to it, it's just easier for ME to not use it & stick with what I am used to. I would probably still use OS/2 if it was better supported and less expensive(eCommstation isn't cheap). For years I paid for the boxed set of S.u.S.E. to help support it. I can have KDE3 up & running on a machine within 5 minutes of installing it. When I've looked at KDE4 I've been frustrated & wasted time trying to use it. So I don't bother anymore. As an example, with 11.0, it installed a lot of KDE4 libs & programs even if you installed KDE3. Removing those libs basically gave a broken system. Or go back further. I used to try not to install stuff like USB or firewire on machines that didn;t have them(old Macs) & when you unchecked 1 thing other unrelated things would be deselected. I tried to remove avahi from an 11.x system and the KDE3 games wouldn't work. After a while it's more effort to deal with than it's worth. Like this thread. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org