Hi

From: James Mohr [mailto:suse_mailing_list@jimmo.com] On Monday 02 June 2003 00:24, Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:

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I would say get them basic skills first: --have them install a system which boots to the commandline --have them setup the X server with different window managers

I was under the impression that the Linux boxes would be supplies pre-installed. A user with basic Windows usage skills isn't required to know howto install Windows either, and few would know howto for that matter.

At this point it is not clear, but I think you are both right. If the audience is a "standard" user then installation would probably be too much. However, if this a course for either advanced users or people who want to be, then installation ought to be inclidesed.

No, I wouldn't teach how to set up an X server from a command line, because nobody will have to any more. If you use a recent Linux-distro X is installed right away. No downloading, no "./configure && make && make install && xf86config" anymore. I think it's more important to show the users what they want to do with a computer - e.g. OpenOffice, mail clients, web browsers, maybe gimp, watching movies, play games, burning cds/dvds etc. This is the stuff a common home user does on his/her computer. For "advanced" users you can set up a course to teach them how to install software like OpenOffice and so on and hardware like scanners, digicams, etc. or how to set up the internet connection For really advanced "users" you can teach admin functions like different filesystems, basic networking (routing, firewalling), network server installation (ssh, samba/nfs, ftp, http, proxy, sendmail/procmail), system tuning, trouble shooting, and all this stuff.

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--show them how to use mc :-) --introduce them to "hello world scripts" in bash and perl -> introduce them to init and the boot.local - autoexec.bat correlation

No "modern" Windows user knows anythings about booting, nor do they have to. Same thing applies to Linux. The users can hopefully asume that they're getting a competent sysadmin to do the hairy jobs, otherwise I wouldn't want to be responsible for this project.

Again depends on the audience. I tend to believe (at least hope) that people **wanting** to learn Linux will be receptive to more info. However, those that are *required* need to be "protected" a little.

Agreed, but don't start with an overkill. Too much information will make them believe that Linux is hard to use and they'll therefore stick to windows. Keep it simple, show them neat things and they will ask questions themselves :-)

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--show them the basic routine for compiling c source: -> configure, make, make install

Same comment as above.

I might have to agree with Pagan on this one. It is both an advantage and disadvantage that Linux software can run on so many platforms. The disadvantage is that you don't always have a binary version and if you want the program you will have to compile it. However, I could imagine that this is part of "supplemental information" that is provided with the course material and not presented in class.

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--show basic ppp connect scripts and basic firewalling

Again: way beyond basic usage skills.

Here too we have a problem with Linux itself. In contrast to Windows, you don't always have the plug-n-play internet connections. Despite my experience, I got extremely frustrated getting my DSL connection working because drivers weren't included, there was no GUI or even a setup script and the documentation to set it up was spread across several web sites. Thank goodness for the SuSE mailing lists. So, just how do they connect to the intenet without this knowledge?

Don't show them how to set up xDSL or PPP - it's every time a different thing :-)

On the other hand, if the audience is "standard" users, you are correct that it beyond them.

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--introduce basic backups to cdrom (or better if they have it) -> show them the correlation between tgz and zip, let them tgz and untgz directories

Backup in a network environment isn't something you leave up to a luser, you do that on the server with all the NFS mounts etc.

You making an assumption there that these are students who are being required by their company management to take a Linux course and that there is a IT department supporting them. All I said was "In the first stage we will be developing a course for people who are moving up from Windows to Linux. " This *could* be people in a company, but it could be a home user who does not have a personal IT department.

Backing up data is a big topic - even windows users don't do it :o) But I would teach them how to burn cds.

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Then repeat above 10 or 20 times, that will give them enough to get started and ask questions on maillists or the usenet as they advance.

You want ordinary desktop (office) users to start questions on mailinglists and usenet when they have a problem? Get real please, without a inhouse helpdesk and like I said a sysadmin they don't stand a chance to bring this to a successful outcome.

Maybe I am interpreting you wrong, but that is a very elitist attitude and does the exact **opposite** of what we are trying to accomplish. I see if frequently that a big complaint against Linux is the arrogant attitude that many Linux user have. "Newbies posting to our mailing list? How impertinent!"

So where do the users go who are trying to setup something at home? Are they forced to pay big buck to SuSE for that support? Just like Windows?

Help them help themselves :-) Give newbies the chance to learn something without chasing them away. So RTFM might be the wrong answer in most cases - give them hints where the manuals are :o)

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I thought this was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment, you seem to want to teach them administrator skills right away.

All I said in this regard was "introductory Linux course" and not that this course "was about teaching people what to expect in a Linux environment". Depending on the length of the course, I tend to agree with Zentara that certain admin skills need to be taught, and I say *even if* they are "standard" users. For example, just understanding the concept of backups would save a lot of heartache.

This would preserve a lot of nerves and prevent some heartattacks - that's for sure :)

Regards,

jimmo

cheers, Stefan