I like to talk about SuSE's marketing, product strategy, competitive position, and the like. To be specific, I _like_ comparing SuSE to Red Hat, Gentoo, Debian, Slackware, and whatever else is out there. I like to do it from a SuSE point of view, because that's what I've settled on. But I realize that the Linux market changes rapidly and significantly. (Witness Red Hat in the last 7 months.) I don't take for granted that I'll be running SuSE forever, and I want to be able to hear about other people's experiences with other software that SuSE doesn't include, AND other distros. Whenever these sorts of threads rear their heads on this list, people get apoplectic, and tell the posters to go to the OT list. Well, I did, for several months, and I found the list to be tiresomely immature. The list is made up of all the hard-core pro-SuSE folks that got told to take it elsewhere, and they wind up talking about... ANYthing. I guess some people will interpret "OT" that way, but I just expected "suse-ot" to still at least be *tangentially* related to... SuSE! What a concept! It seems that there is NO place for the discussions I want to have, and I think this is a disservice to the SuSE community. The Red Hat lists were fantastic. Many Red Hat people were active, and many more trolled. I see ckm all the time here, but he's apparently the SuSE liason for the list, because he's the only one (who at least posts from a suse.com account). The Red Hat folks weren't afraid of an honest look at the issues, and I think that's what made the list more effective. It kept the veterans around because they weren't getting bored with just a list of problems. I wish this list would grow up. It's a high-volume list. What's the harm in having a few more messages if someone wants to talk about Red Hat or Microsoft? But, no. Within a few posts, everyone is told to take it to the OT list. Unfortunately, the discussions of these sorts of topics on that list were of little value because no one espoused a different point of view. It was just cheering for the home team. There's also an inordinate amount of chatter that boils down to reposts of Slashdot and memepool. Unfortunately, my request to keep *that* list at least related to Linux, if not SuSE, was met with flames. So what's the bottom line here? Are the self-appointed moderators on this list telling me to talk about SuSE's strategy and positioning over on the Debian and Red Hat lists? Because there sure doesn't seem to be a worthwhile venue being offered by suse.com. Either some people need to "get over it" on this list, or we need, simply, ot@suse.com, and to split non-Linux traffic from the suse-ot list. Regards all, dk
I hesitate to respond for various reasons, one of which being that my last "contribution" here (on a different subject) was rightly seen as unadulterated drivel. Still: I have to say that I'm sympathetic with David Krider's POV. I read some of the more substantive of OT messages here with great interest. To his rather rhetorical question
What's the harm in having a few more messages if someone wants to talk about Red Hat or Microsoft?
my answer is "none". However, in the end I disagree with David, because it's unlikely that talk about RH or M$ would mean "a few more messages". These are the subjects on which a lot of people like to have their two cents'. There'd likely be a *lot* more messages, a small percentage of them of much interest and an even smaller percentage of much use. I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the current number of messages on this list overwhelming as it is. Though there's an awful lot of drivel on Slashdot and although the second or third utterance of this or that jocular remark all too often is modded up as "funny" (etc.), I think that all in all it works rather well for this kind of subject. Rather than having the content all tumble into the mailbox, one may choose whether or not to look at a new issue page, and whether to keep pressing on the PgDn key or go elsewhere. OTOH there could be an opportunity for a "SuSE-in-wider-perspective" list. Oh and incidentally,
Whenever these sorts of threads rear their heads on this list, people get apoplectic, and tell the posters to go to the OT list.
I see very little apoplexy: those who object do so curtly but coolly.
Hello David, On Saturday, October 4, 2003, 10:08:49 PM, you hammered out: D> I wish this list would grow up. It's a high-volume list. What's the D> harm in having a few more messages if someone wants to talk about Red D> Hat or Microsoft? But, no. Within a few posts, everyone is told to take D> it to the OT list. Unfortunately, the discussions of these sorts of D> topics on that list were of little value because no one espoused a D> different point of view. ... <snip rant> ... Please read the following frequently asked, frequently asked questions before posting to the list. ... ----Some Frequently Asked, Frequently Asked Questions Q2. What is appropriate content for the list? A2. Questions about configuration, maintenance, and implementation of SuSE Linux. The emphasis is on the x86 platform since we have separate lists for AXP, Sparc, IA64, and PPC. Q3. What is not appropriate content for the list? A3. Commercial postings of any kind, job postings, non-computer/Linux related material. Because of the large size of the list (1500 subscribers and ~200 messages per day), flame wars and off-topic posting can sometimes result in you being unsubscribed and, in extreme cases, banned from the list. Also, please unsubscribe now if you planning on posting advocacy-type things. There are lots of advocacy newsgroups such as comp.os.linux.advocacy. -- Best regards, Gary With proper diet, rest, and exercise a healthy body will last a lifetime.
On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 21:22, gv-dated-1065327656.lkglnbce@mygirlfriday.info wrote:
-- Best regards, Gary
With proper diet, rest, and exercise a healthy body will last a lifetime.
I like your tag line. :-) I had to read it twice because something didn't make sense the first time. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tom Nielsen Neuro Logic Systems, Inc. 805.389.5435 x18 www.neuro-logic.com
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 06:16, Ken Schneider wrote:
There are quite a few people on this list that use metered dial up accounts and the amount of OT traffic was a burdon to them, costing them more money for no more additional help.
People that have been using linux/unix for a long time and settled on SuSE because it is a great stable distro were getting tired of all of the of topic traffic as well which is also why the OT list was created.
That is why you need to keep the OT stuff on the OT list.
Ken reposted my entire rant, but apparently failed to read much of it. I'm saying that the OT list is failing to meet the objective people claim it does. This is why I've asked others if they actually subscribe. While I was subscribed, there was a lot of political content that I found offensive. At least talking about SuSE's market position isn't _morally_ offensive to anyone, though the concept of talking about it seems to be _ethically_ offensive to many. On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 23:22, gv-dated-1065327656.lkglnbce@mygirlfriday.info wrote:
Q3. What is not appropriate content for the list? A3. Commercial postings of any kind, job postings, non-computer/Linux related material. Because of the large size of the list (1500 subscribers and ~200 messages per day), flame wars and off-topic posting can sometimes result in you being unsubscribed and, in extreme cases, banned from the list. Also, please unsubscribe now if you planning on posting advocacy-type things. There are lots of advocacy newsgroups such as comp.os.linux.advocacy.
That's a fine idea, and I'd like to subscribe to some news groups, but as long as other people can legitimately complain about having metered access, and not being able to afford to download a few more messages, then I get to complain that I don't have a news server I can use. (The cable company provides one; my DSL provider does not. And please don't tell me to use a free one. I've tried. I know how well that works long term.) If some people can't be expected to pay for more time online, that I can't be expected to pay for a proper news server. On Sat, 2003-10-04 at 22:50, Peter Evans wrote:
Whenever these sorts of threads rear their heads on this list, people get apoplectic, and tell the posters to go to the OT list.
I see very little apoplexy: those who object do so curtly but coolly.
Fair enough. I might have been a little over the top there. So that's it? No one wants to make any changes to either list?!
On Sunday 05 October 2003 07:49, David Krider wrote:
I'm saying that the OT list is failing to meet the objective people claim it does. This is why I've asked others if they actually subscribe. While I was subscribed, there was a lot of political content that I found offensive. At least talking about SuSE's market position isn't _morally_ offensive to anyone, though the concept of talking about it seems to be _ethically_ offensive to many.
I wholeheartedly agree. Very shortly after the OT group was started, I joined. I did so because I figured that's where discussions like your's, along with interesting postings like Fred's Linux-related news stories, would be found. Instead, about 4 of every five messages was either mindless rants from the political right or the political left. I waited about a month, then decided to unsubscribe. - Thomas Long -- Using SuSE Linux 8.2
They are almost never on topic. I'll admit I never subscribed to the OT list for SuSE. The reason being, every OT list I ever subscribed to (in order to watch the 'my distro is better than yours' battles and gain some perspective on what Linux is to others) ended up with people discussing the finer points of Alien Abduction and 'can you believe what they are letting the characters on South Park say on TV'. The problem is, you can't complain about it because, by the list being labeled 'OT', you are basically saying that post is OK. I would much rather deal with the semi off-topic post that make their way to the list than have to weed through all the way off-topic posts on the off-topic list. Personally, I don't see where discussions on how SuSE picks up where RH leaves off, or how Debian is 20 times harder to configure than SuSE, etc.. are off-topic. To me, a serious newbie, those discussions are on point and a part of a newbie being introduced to Linux. Just as it is up to us to go with the distro that works for what we want to do, it is also up to us to separate the 'wheat from the chaff' in every posting to the SuSE list. my $0.02 -=Thinker
On Sunday 05 October 2003 08:49 am, David Krider wrote: [...]
Ken reposted my entire rant, but apparently failed to read much of it. I'm saying that the OT list is failing to meet the objective people claim it does. This is why I've asked others if they actually subscribe. While I was subscribed, there was a lot of political content that I found offensive. At least talking about SuSE's market position isn't _morally_ offensive to anyone, though the concept of talking about it seems to be _ethically_ offensive to many.
[...]
So that's it? No one wants to make any changes to either list?!
David, There have been a couple of other folks that felt like you and actually went off to start their own mail lists. One of those was Tim Butler. While usually starting many OT mails here, his list is usually quiet and covers many of the things you have mentioned interest you. Tim and I often clash, because of his dislike of SuSE, but the list may provide you what you want. Here is your sign up url: http://www.ofb.biz/lists/listinfo.cgi/ofbtalk This might be what you are looking for, then we can get back to business on the SuSE list without your incessant whining. ;o) Lee -- --- KMail v1.5.4 --- SuSE Linux Pro v8.2 --- Registered Linux User #225206 On any other day, that might seem strange...
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 10:48, BandiPat wrote:
Here is your sign up url: http://www.ofb.biz/lists/listinfo.cgi/ofbtalk
I really appreciate this link. I'll probably sign up right after this.
This might be what you are looking for, then we can get back to business on the SuSE list without your incessant whining. ;o)
Yeah. Uh. Sorry to interrupt the Ph.D.-level discussions around here about things that could be figured out by using Google 75% of the time. :-P Doesn't anyone else notice that a non-insignificant portion of the posts on suse-linux-e don't have anything to do with _SuSE_, per se, anyway? By that reasoning, almost 50% of the list is off-topic. At least the sorts of things I'm campaigning about being allowed to post are related to SuSE specifically. dk
* David Krider (david@davidkrider.com) [031005 09:03]:
Doesn't anyone else notice that a non-insignificant portion of the posts on suse-linux-e don't have anything to do with _SuSE_, per se, anyway? By that reasoning, almost 50% of the list is off-topic. At least the sorts of things I'm campaigning about being allowed to post are related to SuSE specifically.
Well, until a little while ago this was a community list or so it seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name. Anyway. I'll just crawl back into my corner. ;) /end my 0.02 -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org ----- If two men agree on everything, you can be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking.
Maybe the solution would be a "newbie" list for basic and beginner questions. Just a thot. Buck -----Original Message----- From: Ben Rosenberg [mailto:ben@whack.org] Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 3:15 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] Something needs done about OT posting * David Krider (david@davidkrider.com) [031005 09:03]:
Doesn't anyone else notice that a non-insignificant portion of the posts on suse-linux-e don't have anything to do with _SuSE_, per se, anyway? By that reasoning, almost 50% of the list is off-topic. At least the sorts of things I'm campaigning about being allowed to post are related to SuSE specifically.
Well, until a little while ago this was a community list or so it seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name. Anyway. I'll just crawl back into my corner. ;) /end my 0.02 -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org ----- If two men agree on everything, you can be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
* Buck (suse-lst@towncorp.net) [031005 12:43]:
Maybe the solution would be a "newbie" list for basic and beginner questions.
That wasn't my point. My point was the sterilization of the community feel that so many advocate lately. The newbie question thing was tertiary in my argument. -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org ----- If two men agree on everything, you can be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking.
Ben's got it in one (notice the top-post :o) The way I see it is that this list is a funnel that takes newbie and tough questions and throws them around. No guaranatees, just a wide airing of the issues so that as large a forum as possible can view (and hopefully help to sort) the problem is achieved. This of course assumes that there's a problem, not an OT discussion. I subscribe for problems & fixes. Nothing else. Can we keep it that way ? Damian Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Well, until a little while ago this was a community list or so it seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name.
-----Original Message----- From: Ben Rosenberg [mailto:ben@whack.org]
Well, until a little while ago this was a community list or so it seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name.
Anyway. I'll just crawl back into my corner. ;)
Don't crawl, Ben, you're right as far as I'm concerned. We don't always agree but that family for you. Terence
Ben's got it in one (notice the top-post :o) The way I see it is that this list is a funnel that takes newbie and tough questions and throws them around. No guaranatees, just a wide airing of the issues so that as large a forum as possible can view (and hopefully help to sort) the problem is achieved. This of course assumes that there's a problem, not an OT discussion. I subscribe for problems & fixes. Nothing else. Can we keep it that way ? Damian Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Well, until a little while ago this was a community list or so it seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name.
* David Krider (david@davidkrider.com) [031005 09:03]:
Doesn't anyone else notice that a non-insignificant portion of the posts on suse-linux-e don't have anything to do with _SuSE_, per se, anyway? By that reasoning, almost 50% of the list is off-topic. At least the sorts of things I'm campaigning about being allowed to post are related to SuSE specifically.
Well, until a little while ago thsuse-linux-e@suse.comis was a community
I'm sorry this has happened Ben. Surely newbies can have passion too? Judging from the posts in this OT thread, it's questions which AREN'T along the lines of: "Why X doesn't work" that meet with disapproval. You can't have a list which insists on being technical only, without getting questions like "why doesn't X work" surely? I hear what you're saying though... and I'm sympathetic. I guess linux in general (and SuSE in particular in this context) are changing fast... and "your" mailing list is changing with it. Perhaps this is what drives interested parties to ever more "difficult" and obscure distros? Speaking as a newbie, I hope to God you people who know what you are doing stick around. 8-) Jake On Sunday 05 October 2003 20:14, Ben Rosenberg wrote: list or so it
seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name.
Anyway. I'll just crawl back into my corner. ;)
/end my 0.02
-- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org ----- If two men agree on everything, you can be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking.
* Jake Pumphrey (jake.pumphrey@btopenworld.com) [031005 13:17]:
I'm sorry this has happened Ben. Surely newbies can have passion too?
Newbie = New to the list, not to Linux. ;)
Judging from the posts in this OT thread, it's questions which AREN'T along the lines of: "Why X doesn't work" that meet with disapproval. You can't have a list which insists on being technical only, without getting questions like "why doesn't X work" surely?
I never said that you would have a tech list without those questions. I said that without the sense of community that this becomes just a helpdesk list and that doesn't interest me. I've answered so many X and ppp questions in the last 6 years it makes my head spin. ;)
I hear what you're saying though... and I'm sympathetic. I guess linux in general (and SuSE in particular in this context) are changing fast... and "your" mailing list is changing with it. Perhaps this is what drives interested parties to ever more "difficult" and obscure distros?
Yeah. The list changed but what I'm advocating is that people calm down with the ridged requirements of what they feel this list should be. It's not just a technical list or a free for all list. But should be a mixture of both so that a feeling of community exists. The suse-ot list is a joke and I know I've treated it as a "whatever I wanna say noiser list" because that's what it is..it's for all the sludge that doesn't need to be on this list. But a friendly debate about how RH differs from SuSE is fine in my eyes for this list because it helps newcomers from RH or another operating environment get a fell for why SuSE rocks over what their use to..without all the sludge of the ot list. :)
Speaking as a newbie, I hope to God you people who know what you are doing stick around. 8-)
I most like will.. but that's always subject to debate. ;) -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org ----- If two men agree on everything, you can be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking.
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 15:54, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Yeah. The list changed but what I'm advocating is that people calm down with the ridged requirements of what they feel this list should be. It's not just a technical list or a free for all list. But should be a mixture of both so that a feeling of community exists. The suse-ot list is a joke and I know I've treated it as a "whatever I wanna say noiser list" because that's what it is..it's for all the sludge that doesn't need to be on this list. But a friendly debate about how RH differs from SuSE is fine in my eyes for this list because it helps newcomers from RH or another operating environment get a fell for why SuSE rocks over what their use to..without all the sludge of the ot list. :)
(Exactly! I just couldn't trim it.)
Speaking as a newbie, I hope to God you people who know what you are doing stick around. 8-)
I most like will.. but that's always subject to debate. ;)
If this loses Ben... Well let's just say that would suck. Regards, dk
Jake Pumphrey wrote:
I'm sorry this has happened Ben. Surely newbies can have passion too?
<snip> Jake
On Sunday 05 October 2003 20:14, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
<snip> So
when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name.
Anyway. I'll just crawl back into my corner. ;)
/end my 0.02
-- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org ----- If two men agree on everything, you can be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking.
I haven't read all of this thread, just a few posts. Despite that, the few that I read said exactly what I thought they would. I first read a similar thread about 6 years ago on a Caldera list, then the same on a linux newsgroup, then on--of all things--a Corel Linux list, and probably 15 or 20 times on this very list over the last 4 years. The end result is always the same...those opposed to any deviation from technical dialog about suse linux will always disagree with anything OT on the list, regarless how minor. Those opposed to strict, uncompromising, ironfisted rule of law will ignore those others and continue post OT topics, but usually won't be disruptive. After a day or two of discussion, everyone will call a truce of sorts and go back to what they were doing. After a week, OT posts will be as brisk as ever. After a month, someone will complain about OT posts again (which they could filter out as easily as they can complain about them), and the whole process will start over. My input on the subject: Life is too short. There are more important things to get your panties in a bind about. Unless someone puts toothpicks in your eyes and straps your head in place in front of your monitor, I'd say you don't have to read anything you don't want to. And if someone DID place toothpicks in your eyes, etc. you have bigger issues on your plate than OT emails. Since I already gave 2 cents tonight, that makes 4 cents. So relax, I'm all out of cents now. Ciao, John S.
Ben's got it in one (notice the top-post :o) The way I see it is that this list is a funnel that takes newbie and tough questions and throws them around. No guaranatees, just a wide airing of the issues so that as large a forum as possible can view (and hopefully help to sort) the problem is achieved. This of course assumes that there's a problem, not an OT discussion. I subscribe for problems & fixes. Nothing else. Can we keep it that way ? Damian Ben Rosenberg wrote:
Well, until a little while ago this was a community list or so it seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name.
Ben Rosenberg wrote:
* David Krider (david@davidkrider.com) [031005 09:03]:
Well, until a little while ago this was a community list or so it seemed. But since we've had an influx of ex-<whatever distro> and ex-windows users it's become quite crowded and the off topic posts and heated discussions have become to much for this list. I don't deny that. But in the last couple years this list has lost that sense of community that it once had. With all the Nazi like posting, netiquette and other such behavior attacks it's become just another tech list. Sometimes I don't know why I stay subscribed. I mean with no sense of community it's just more questions about " Why X doesn't work.." " Why ppp or DSL doesn't work " and quite frankly most of those questions and situation have little interest for me. For most of the questions I have ..I can google them and get the same dull, sanitized feeling that this list has lately. So when you newbies to the list get all bent out of shape remember this..it's you who killed the homey, community feel of this list and made it feel like a hospital room. It's you who are detrimental to this list. Not the people with passion. I liked it much better when this list had that Cheers feel to it ..you know where everybody knows your name.
Anyway. I'll just crawl back into my corner. ;)
/end my 0.02
I am very new to this list and to Linux in general, however, I am very experienced using Listservs. I once received over 2000 emails per day from lists. I have a few suggestions I hope someone might find useful. Many lists, especially larger ones, have a moderator. When a thread gets a little off-topic, it is often ignored briefly to see if the dust settles naturally, however, if the topic begins to grow rather than die, the moderator steps in with a cease and desist order. A few more posts are ignored as some people will reply before reading the order, but the topic dies as no one wants to be kicked off. In a few cases, there are groups of lists. There is a general topic list, i.e. SuSE users discussing issues related to SuSE Linux. Then there are sub-topic lists more specific, i.e. Installation Issues, Bug Reports, Tech Support in SuSE in general, Tech Support in a specific version of SuSE, Using SuSE as a Web Server, whatever becomes a popular topic in the general list. I have to say that your idea of an "Off Topic" list was unique and had good intentions. Unfortunately it sounds like there was too much freedom on it. Here are some suggestions. Even if not used, maybe they will be useful in helping you think up a solution. Some of these suggestions may exist in part or in full. Don't get angry or upset if I repeat them, I don't know everything about this group or the sponsoring company. First create a detailed index of the available lists which includes the name, the link, and one or two paragraphs explaining specifically what the list is for and who the target audience might be. Each list should be assigned a moderator to keep the list on-topic. 1) Create a master list of Lists. Show the name, the link and a couple of paragraphs explaining the purpose of the list and what is expected from those posting to the list. 2) Create a General Topic list, i.e. SuSE General Discussion, anything goes...if it is related to SuSE Linux or the company. Don't let it become a SuSE bashing list, but allow things like tech support, discussions on the SuSE company and what they are doing, how the general Linux community is affecting SuSE etc. 3) Create additional lists for specific topics that become popular on the General list. This list would be one of those. It appears to be used to specifically address tech support questions. Assign a moderator that won't be on a witch hunt, but when things start getting off-topic, put out a cease and desist order pending the direction the topic is going. Obviously, except for the fact that this list is addressing this problem, this topic would be off topic for the list. If the list members would like to discuss implementing some of this or changing it to apply to the benefit of this list, those comments are welcome. If someone with the authority to use these ideas would like to further discuss this message, I ask them to do so privately in respect to the rest of the members. I am not open to discussing mistakes in my assumptions or why what I suggest might not work. Please respect the members and if not, don't hold your breath awaiting my reply. I hope some of you find this useful. Thank you, Buck
On Sun, 2003-10-05 at 13:02, Buck wrote:
First create a detailed index of the available lists which includes the name, the link, and one or two paragraphs explaining specifically what the list is for and who the target audience might be.
SuSE has already done this. One of the first responses to the start of this thread was a repost of the rule that says advocacy is discouraged here. I'm just asking if this is wise. In case no one else has noticed, SuSE usually comes last, if at all, when third parties create custom software packages. (What James Ogley does is truly remarkable, and fills an incredible gap.) There needs to be some discussion on this point for the sake of creating community, not just for us, but so that others will come across such posts, whether by lurking the list or catching a rerun through Google, and see what SuSE is on about.
Each list should be assigned a moderator to keep the list on-topic.
Well, I'd hate to see it become moderated. There's a time and place for that, but that's usually when the list is primarily about a particular expert's opinion on something. Besides, I think any sort of moderator would go crazy on this list trying to keep up.
If the list members would like to discuss implementing some of this or changing it to apply to the benefit of this list, those comments are welcome. If someone with the authority to use these ideas would like to further discuss this message, I ask them to do so privately in respect to the rest of the members.
This is my point. I wanted to float this balloon and gauge the responses. At first, I thought it was hopeless. Now I'm not so sure. CKM still hasn't weighed in here. I'm very curious what he would think. What do you say, CKM? Can we get the rule banning advocacy loosened? I think there's a worry about stuff that's just crazy, like some Microsoft bashing. But I think such topics will die out from a lack of responses naturally. dk
On Sun, Oct 05, 2003 at 06:12:24PM -0500, David Krider wrote:
Can we get the rule banning advocacy loosened?
If you are asking for an opinion, I would object that. There are plenty of other places for advocacy postings. Thank you for listening. -Kastus
Not to sound ignorant, but I am, how are you defining "advocacy"? Buck -----Original Message----- From: Kastus [mailto:NOSPAM@tprfct.net] Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 7:52 PM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] Something needs done about OT posting On Sun, Oct 05, 2003 at 06:12:24PM -0500, David Krider wrote:
Can we get the rule banning advocacy loosened?
If you are asking for an opinion, I would object that. There are plenty of other places for advocacy postings. Thank you for listening. -Kastus -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
-----Original Message-----
From: David Krider
I like to talk about SuSE's marketing, product strategy, competitive position, and the like. To be specific, I _like_ comparing SuSE to Red Hat, Gentoo, Debian, Slackware, and whatever else is out there. I like to do it from a SuSE point of view, because that's what I've settled on. But I realize that the Linux market changes rapidly and significantly. (Witness Red Hat in the last 7 months.) I don't take for granted that I'll be running SuSE forever, and I want to be able to hear about other people's experiences with other software that SuSE doesn't include, AND other distros.
Whenever these sorts of threads rear their heads on this list, people get apoplectic, and tell the posters to go to the OT list. Well, I did, for several months, and I found the list to be tiresomely immature. The list is made up of all the hard-core pro-SuSE folks that got told to take it elsewhere, and they wind up talking about... ANYthing. I guess some people will interpret "OT" that way, but I just expected "suse-ot" to still at least be *tangentially* related to... SuSE! What a concept!
It seems that there is NO place for the discussions I want to have, and I think this is a disservice to the SuSE community. The Red Hat lists were fantastic. Many Red Hat people were active, and many more trolled. I see ckm all the time here, but he's apparently the SuSE liason for the list, because he's the only one (who at least posts from a suse.com account). The Red Hat folks weren't afraid of an honest look at the issues, and I think that's what made the list more effective. It kept the veterans around because they weren't getting bored with just a list of problems.
I wish this list would grow up. It's a high-volume list. What's the harm in having a few more messages if someone wants to talk about Red Hat or Microsoft? But, no. Within a few posts, everyone is told to take it to the OT list. Unfortunately, the discussions of these sorts of topics on that list were of little value because no one espoused a different point of view. It was just cheering for the home team. There's also an inordinate amount of chatter that boils down to reposts of Slashdot and memepool. Unfortunately, my request to keep *that* list at least related to Linux, if not SuSE, was met with flames.
So what's the bottom line here? Are the self-appointed moderators on this list telling me to talk about SuSE's strategy and positioning over on the Debian and Red Hat lists? Because there sure doesn't seem to be a worthwhile venue being offered by suse.com. Either some people need to "get over it" on this list, or we need, simply, ot@suse.com, and to split non-Linux traffic from the suse-ot list.
Regards all, dk
This list is here to help people that are having problems with their SuSE installation period. It is NOT here to listen about redhat and other distros and what they are doing. That is why the OT list was created, to cut down on traffic generated by OT posts. There are quite a few people on this list that use metered dial up accounts and the amount of OT traffic was a burdon to them, costing them more money for no more additional help. Now I suppose that if you were willing to help pay for their additional costs they may now care as much about the additional cost of downloading additional email that does not pertain to the topic of the list. People that have been using linux/unix for a long time and settled on SuSE because it is a great stable distro were getting tired of all of the of topic traffic as well which is also why the OT list was created. I was getting ready to end my subscription about the time that the OT list was created and decided to stay since the volume of traffic dropped a lot. I not only like to keep an eye on what is happening with different package updates but also what breaks when a package is updated. Even though I have been involved in linux since 1994 and unix since 1989 I still learn something new all the time. li/u(nix) is to large to learn it all in one day,week,year etc. and this list provides a way to learn more. That is why you need to keep the OT stuff on the OT list. Ken Schneider Linux user since 1994 SuSE user since 1998 unix user since 1989
* David Krider (david@davidkrider.com) [031004 20:11]:
Whenever these sorts of threads rear their heads on this list, people get apoplectic, and tell the posters to go to the OT list. Well, I did, for several months, and I found the list to be tiresomely immature. The list is made up of all the hard-core pro-SuSE folks that got told to take it elsewhere, and they wind up talking about... ANYthing. I guess some people will interpret "OT" that way, but I just expected "suse-ot" to still at least be *tangentially* related to... SuSE! What a concept!
So you bring up a meta-off-topic thread here.
It seems that there is NO place for the discussions I want to have, and I think this is a disservice to the SuSE community. The Red Hat lists were fantastic. Many Red Hat people were active, and many more trolled. I see ckm all the time here, but he's apparently the SuSE liason for the list, because he's the only one (who at least posts from a suse.com account).
I run lists.suse.com but there are other SuSE people here as well (time permitting).
I wish this list would grow up. It's a high-volume list. What's the harm in having a few more messages if someone wants to talk about Red Hat or Microsoft? But, no. Within a few posts, everyone is told to take it to the OT list.
Because of the SCO noise (yes, it was noise) long-time contributors to this list were leaving or thinking about leaving in droves. I'd rather have one Anders Johansson than 500 subscribers who want to talk about SCO or the latest MS skulduggery.
Unfortunately, the discussions of these sorts of topics on that list were of little value because no one espoused a different point of view. It was just cheering for the home team. There's also an inordinate amount of chatter that boils down to reposts of Slashdot and memepool. Unfortunately, my request to keep *that* list at least related to Linux, if not SuSE, was met with flames.
I think, after four months, it's clear from the fact that only about 100 people have subscribed to suse-ot (many from suse-linux) that people generally aren't interested in these off-topic discussions. In any case, the list is there and it's what you make it.
So what's the bottom line here? Are the self-appointed moderators on this list telling me to talk about SuSE's strategy and positioning over on the Debian and Red Hat lists? Because there sure doesn't seem to be a worthwhile venue being offered by suse.com.
All of our lists with the exception of suse-ot, and this is clearly stated when you subscribe, are for technical discussions. As I wrote in the FAQ there are plenty of other places more suitable for these sorts of non-technical discussions, please go use them.
Either some people need to "get over it" on this list, or we need, simply, ot@suse.com, and to split non-Linux traffic from the suse-ot list.
Yes, you do need to get over it--off-topic discussions are not welcome here and hopefully the 'self-appointed' moderators as you call them will continue to do the great service that they have been. followup-to set appropriately, -- -ckm
participants (16)
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BandiPat -
Ben Rosenberg -
Buck -
Christopher Mahmood -
Damian O'Hara -
David Krider -
gv-dated-1065327656.lkglnbce＠mygirlfriday.info -
Jake Pumphrey -
js -
Kastus -
Ken Schneider -
Peter Evans -
Terence McCarthy -
Thinker -
Thomas Long -
Tom Nielsen