* Damon Register (dregiste@bellsouth.net) [20000401 14:50]:

It looks great. This is a good idea. Thanks for the effort you are putting into this

Up 'till now there isn't any effort I've done, other than trying to spark off a discussion, that is :-) Doing a translation of the current german version wouldn't be that hard either, as I actually like to do such things (although I'm pretty certain that the translation would need some review from folks like you for whom English is their native language :). Philipp -- Philipp Thomas SuSE GmbH, Schanzaecker Str. 10, D-90443 Nuremberg, Germany #define NINODE 50 /* number of in core inodes */ #define NPROC 30 /* max number of processes */ -- Version 7 UNIX fuer PDP 11, /usr/include/sys/param.h -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, you wrote:

Hi Phillipp et al,

On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

The users of the German suse-linux have created an etiquette which is posted once a month on the list. You can have a look at a slightly outdated translated version at

Personally I see no reason to have rules on this list. We are doing fine without them. I know that Germans in general love the rule book. Heck, the stamp club I belong to has it in the rule book that we all will say "du" to each other.

Please let's leave the list as it is. Anyone who wishes to can join the German rule book if they so wish. Here in Spain, we do not have the discipline of Northern Europe. We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us. It is a relief to newcomers to find a list like this. Just try a previously posted question to most other lists to find yourself the idiot of the list in no uncertain terms. As a newcomer six months ago I could have got nowhere near where I am today without the freedom to talk to this list. We are trying to encourage newcomers I hope. Please let them have the same opportunity to post as I had. Otherwise, yes. Best wishes from Steve & Clara at FeF, Spain. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Steve Sheriff wrote:

Please let's leave the list as it is. Anyone who wishes to can join the German rule book if they so wish. Here in Spain, we do not have the discipline of Northern Europe. We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us. It is a relief to newcomers to find a list like this. Just try a previously posted question to most other lists to find yourself the idiot of the list in no uncertain terms. As a newcomer six months ago I could have got nowhere near >where I am today without the freedom to talk to this list. We are trying to >encourage newcomers I hope. Please let them have the same opportunity to post as I had.

Well this topic is becoming interesting for me since a very similar discussion is going on within the one of the local Turkish newsgroups. The main idea is same before asking a question follow the the procedure and than go and shoot for the question. I would not personally call these rules or laws but guidelines in making the search for the difficult problem easier. I am spending more time reading the postings here in the Suse mail list rather thank reading the ones in the local one. Why ; 90% of the questions are "I can not connect to the internet linux cannot find my modem it was working with windows" They do not even bother to check the documentation's for modem compatibility. I believe the main problem starts with the lack of the guidelines. Consequently I think if there are problem solving guidelines for the newcomers to the list I do not think they will perceive it as laws of the SUSE mail list. Oh yes I also believe that they will skip the step and go for the question. Yet my perception is if the experienced linux user are acting like true mentors answering the questions with points out the location of the information it will set it's own pace. Now, I have started using linux 2 months ago. What I see as a problem with linux system is classification of the information. There is man pages suse support database are just to named the few. However for the extremely newcomer who has no idea where and how to search for the information in the event of a problem it really becomes frustrating. Because I do not know if Linux does have the safe mode where you can use the troubleshooting wizards of Microsoft Windows. Like it or do not like it Microsoft windows has made computing easier for many people. For that reason I believe they do not deserve to be called M$ winders or what ever which does not sound appropriate ethic behavior to me. Let's be fair nothing to be looses if mentioning the name. That goes true for other distributions as well. Still we are using Suse and quite happy with it as I understand. -- Togan Muftuoglu toganm@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Steve Sheriff wrote:

On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, you wrote:

...

Hi Phillipp et al,

On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

The users of the German suse-linux have created an etiquette which is posted once a month on the list. You can have a look at a slightly outdated translated version at

Personally I see no reason to have rules on this list. We are doing fine without them. I know that Germans in general love the rule book. Heck, the stamp club I belong to has it in the rule book that we all will say "du" to each other.

Please let's leave the list as it is. Anyone who wishes to can join the German rule book if they so wish. Here in Spain, we do not have the discipline of Northern Europe. We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us. It is a relief to newcomers to find a list like this. Just try a previously posted question to most other lists to find yourself the idiot of the list in no uncertain terms. As a newcomer six months ago I could have got nowhere near where I am today without the freedom to talk to this list. We are trying to encourage newcomers I hope. Please let them have the same opportunity to post as I had.

I think there's some confusion here between rules and etiquette. It would be a good idea that when someone subscribes to the list, they get a message describing recommended practices -- but I don't think we should enforce them. An example of a recommended practice: use descriptive subject lines, not titles such as ``Plea for help''. Such practices benefit everyone on the list. Paul Abrahams -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Quoting Philipp Thomas :

* Steve Sheriff (fsanta@arrakis.es) [20000401 20:18]:

...

of Northern Europe. We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us.

If you don't like the word "rules", how about protocols. The Internet works because there are protocols. Without open protocols, might makes right and the 500 pound gorilla takes over the party. Jeffrey -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

I didn't really want to add too much to this thread - but here goes.. I am a relative newbie too, I have learn't an awful lot from you all and long may it continue. RTFM, Check the archives etc do very little good IMHO, things change so rapidly that the manual etc may not apply any more (winmodems USB et al) All I would say however, is to request that people just pause a second before pressing the send button, would you say face to face what you have just written about someone ?? Thats my lot...... Pete -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, you wrote:

* James (Jim) Hatridge (hatridge@straubing.baynet.de) [20000401 18:59]:

...

Personally I see no reason to have rules on this list. We are doing fine without them.

I tend to disagree, but more on that later on.

...

I know that Germans in general love the rule book.

Yep, sadly they tend to do that :( But rest assured that I'm *not* in that camp.

...

Heck, the stamp club I belong to has it in the rule book that we all will say "du" to each other.

Oh yeah, typical sign of the German tendency to over regulate things :)

...

The major problem with having stated rules will be the self-appointed "SuSE Police". Then if someone gets alittle off topic we'll have someone going on about §3 etc, etc.

I don't think we'd have such problems, specially as this *is* an international list. I'd guess the danger of this to happen would be *much* higher if this was a german list.

...

This list being on a (more or less) basic level then I expect allot of simple questions. No problem, either we go over the basics again with the new guy or if we just did it last week we tell him to look at the SuSE site.

But IMO it wouldn't hurt either to point out places where somebody with a question could/should look first before turning to the list. And I'd *really* love to see things like HTML postings, unnecessary attachments and excessive quoting (and it's specially the latter that annoyed me most lately) vanishing from this list or at least getting reduced. And an _unofficial_ etiquette would help achieving that. At least I think it would and it seems like others here agree with me.

But first of all this is exactly the discussion I hoped I could start :)

Philipp

To me, the one thing that makes this list unique among the many I've been on is the relative lack of ad homenim attacks, 'rtfm' replys, wildly off list posts, and the usual crude, rude or vulgar postings. These kinds of posts are the principal reasons why I seldom visit newsgroups anymore. In newsgroups it isn't long before the arrogant or psychopathic or vulgar drive thoughtful, and usually more knowledgeable, people off the list. While the kind of behavior I've described is not common on the SuSE list, as SuSE's popularity continues to increase and the number of posters increase, so will the numbers of those who don't know how to behave or are unwilling to do so. Then, to be fair to all, a person who blatantly and frequently abuses the list can be given a warning and an etiquette citation. If they persist they can be warned with a threatened removal from the list. If they persist, they can be, fairly, removed from the list. This will maintain the purpose of the list: to obtain high quality help from other SuSE users and from SuSE employees as well. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On Sun, 02 Apr 2000, tabanna wrote:

SO, let's appoint a Sheriff & Sheriff's Deputy, to see Fair-Play, Protect the Piano-Players, and prevent Shootings in the Saloon.

We have tried that down here in Texas with less than satisfactory results........... ;-) -- Bob F EMail FBob@wt.net A Truly Wise Man Never Plays Leapfrog With A Unicorn... -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

I agree. This is an excellent idea. I have already some suggestions: 1) Include the etiquette's URL in the signature of the list; 2) Mail the etiquette text (and it's improved version) more than once a month, taking into consideration the great flow of messages from this list...; 3) Regarding 2), maybe include the etiquette as part of the welcome message we've all received. /NB ________________ Nicolas Beaulieu www.penguinpowered.com/~montesquieu montesquieu@penguinpowered.com ICQ 15933500 If your VCR's blinking 12:00, you don't need Linux. _________________ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Rule #1 Everyone is welcome, Follow the Golden Rule. Rule #2 There are NO stupid or bothersome questions--if your stuck, ask! Rule #3 There are no more "Rules" Tips on how to make sure everyone gets the most out of this list follow: Tip 1 (some etiquette stuff may fit here) Tip 2 . . . Tip N Some thoughts from a: 1/4 German, 1/4 Dutch, 1/2 English, 100% American. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

* BobF (FBob@wt.net) [20000401 21:46]:

I think this would be much more palatable to Linux users who lean toward nonconformity and have a distaste for "rules".

You certainly have a point there ;-) I would also tend to put me into that group, but my experience also shows me that some outspoken guidelines do help to avoid hassle. As already stated, this list is bound to increase in volume. And in contrast to the early adopters of Linux, which mostly already had some kind of Unix background or at least a rather solid computer knowledge, I now see more and more People trying to use Linux that would also have a hard time doing some of the more lowlevel Windows stuff. Now before anybody misreads that, let me state up front that this is nothing to be ashamed of and I don't blame anybody for being in that position. Heck, there was a time I also had to look up nearly every command. It's not knowledge that counts but rather the wish to become so. With this shift in user base, which I do notice from sharing an office with coworkers that do installation support, the more basic questions are bound to increase in volume. And with the increasing volume the signal to noise ratio tends to decrease. Now I'd like this list to stay the rather homely and friendly place it is, thanks to all you folks participating. And it's for that reason I'm proposing to come up with guidelines most of us can agree on. This would give those freshly joining the list some hints as to how to make the most out of it and those already longer on the list less reason to leave.

The url where it can be found is: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html

Thanks for the pointer! I'll definitely have a look at it. -- Philipp Thomas SuSE GmbH, Schanzaecker Str. 10, D-90443 Nuremberg, Germany Newsgroups are like parliaments, their content doesn't make the building illegal. - seen on a german newsgroup -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/