Philipp Thomas wrote:

Comments? It looks great. This is a good idea. Thanks for the effort you are putting into this

Damon Register -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Philipp Thomas wrote On April 1st 2000:

Comments? Full support

-- Togan Muftuoglu toganm@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

* Steve Sheriff :

[...] We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us. It is a relief to newcomers to find a list like this. Just try a previously posted question to most other lists to find yourself the idiot of the list in no uncertain terms. As a newcomer six months ago I could have got nowhere near where I am today without the freedom to talk to this list. We are trying to encourage newcomers I hope. Please let them have the same opportunity to post as I had.

Well, these "rules" already exist, they are a part of the internet, and people who want the highest level of information transfer tend to advocate some basic guidelines. They already appear on the list, such as when someone sends html mail, or recently when someone's mail was seen as hard to read. I think that the question is if we should have a document to a) orient people as to what these recommended guidelines are, b) something to refer them to when they are doing something silly (like quoting a three page message to say "Same here.") James said, "The major problem with having stated rules will be the self-appointed "SuSE Police"." Well, just a thought but doesn't this kind of action (exessive hand-waving at the guidelines) deserve a mention in a list of guidelines if we use one? That way, any list lawyers wouldn't have a leg to stand on! _david_ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Philipp Thomas wrote:

Comments?

Philipp

Sounds like a great idea to me. Gives everyone some guide lines to go by. Newbie's to the list would appreciate it as most look for guide lines to go by. Nevada -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, Philipp Thomas wrote:

The users of the German suse-linux have created an etiquette which is posted Comments?

We should go for it... Alvaro Novo -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

* Jerry L Kreps (JerryKreps@alltel.net) [20000401 16:50]:

In the SuSE 'sig' that is attached to each email a URL to the etiquette html could be placed.

I don't know, as these would *not* be official rules, but mentioning them in the automatically attached footer make them seem to be that. It just happens that I am reading both lists and at the same time am a SuSE employee. But that wouldn't automatically make it official. Plus I think this _shouldn't_ be anything official as IMO something that we as users of this list agree on would bear *much* more weight and get more agreement. This would also follow the grass roots traditions of the net, which IMNSHO have to be held up now and then :) Philipp -- Philipp Thomas SuSE GmbH, Schanzaecker Str. 10, D-90443 Nuremberg, Germany #define NINODE 50 /* number of in core inodes */ #define NPROC 30 /* max number of processes */ -- Version 7 UNIX fuer PDP 11, /usr/include/sys/param.h -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

* James (Jim) Hatridge (hatridge@straubing.baynet.de) [20000401 18:59]:

Personally I see no reason to have rules on this list. We are doing fine without them.

I tend to disagree, but more on that later on.

I know that Germans in general love the rule book.

Yep, sadly they tend to do that :( But rest assured that I'm *not* in that camp.

Heck, the stamp club I belong to has it in the rule book that we all will say "du" to each other.

Oh yeah, typical sign of the german tendancy to overregulate things :)

The major problem with having stated rules will be the self-appointed "SuSE Police". Then if someone gets alittle off topic we'll have someone going on about §3 etc, etc.

I don't think we'd have such problems, specially as this *is* an international list. I'd guess the danger of this to happen would be *much* higher if this was a german list.

This list being on a (more or less) basic level then I expect allot of simple questions. No problem, either we go over the basics again with the new guy or if we just did it last week we tell him to look at the SuSE site.

But IMO it wouldn't hurt either to point out places where somebody with a question could/should look first before turning to the list. And I'd *really* love to see things like HTML postings, unnecessary attachments and excessive quoting (and it's specially the latter that annoyed me most lately) vanishing from this list or at least getting reduced. And an _unofficial_ ettiquette would help achieving that. At least I think it would and it seems like others here agree with me. But first of all this is exactly the discussion I hoped I could start :) Philipp -- Philipp Thomas SuSE GmbH, Schanzaecker Str. 10, D-90443 Nuremberg, Germany #define NINODE 50 /* number of in core inodes */ #define NPROC 30 /* max number of processes */ -- Version 7 UNIX fuer PDP 11, /usr/include/sys/param.h -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, you wrote:

* James (Jim) Hatridge (hatridge@straubing.baynet.de) [20000401 18:59]:

...

Personally I see no reason to have rules on this list. We are doing fine without them.

I tend to disagree, but more on that later on.

...

I know that Germans in general love the rule book.

Yep, sadly they tend to do that :( But rest assured that I'm *not* in that camp.

...

Heck, the stamp club I belong to has it in the rule book that we all will say "du" to each other.

Oh yeah, typical sign of the German tendency to over regulate things :)

...

The major problem with having stated rules will be the self-appointed "SuSE Police". Then if someone gets alittle off topic we'll have someone going on about §3 etc, etc.

I don't think we'd have such problems, specially as this *is* an international list. I'd guess the danger of this to happen would be *much* higher if this was a german list.

...

This list being on a (more or less) basic level then I expect allot of simple questions. No problem, either we go over the basics again with the new guy or if we just did it last week we tell him to look at the SuSE site.

But IMO it wouldn't hurt either to point out places where somebody with a question could/should look first before turning to the list. And I'd *really* love to see things like HTML postings, unnecessary attachments and excessive quoting (and it's specially the latter that annoyed me most lately) vanishing from this list or at least getting reduced. And an _unofficial_ etiquette would help achieving that. At least I think it would and it seems like others here agree with me.

But first of all this is exactly the discussion I hoped I could start :)

Philipp

To me, the one thing that makes this list unique among the many I've been on is the relative lack of ad homenim attacks, 'rtfm' replys, wildly off list posts, and the usual crude, rude or vulgar postings. These kinds of posts are the principal reasons why I seldom visit newsgroups anymore. In newsgroups it isn't long before the arrogant or psychopathic or vulgar drive thoughtful, and usually more knowledgeable, people off the list. While the kind of behavior I've described is not common on the SuSE list, as SuSE's popularity continues to increase and the number of posters increase, so will the numbers of those who don't know how to behave or are unwilling to do so. Then, to be fair to all, a person who blatantly and frequently abuses the list can be given a warning and an etiquette citation. If they persist they can be warned with a threatened removal from the list. If they persist, they can be, fairly, removed from the list. This will maintain the purpose of the list: to obtain high quality help from other SuSE users and from SuSE employees as well. JLK -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, you wrote:

The users of the German suse-linux have created an etiquette which is posted once a month on the list. You can have a look at a slightly outdated translated version at

Comments?

I had the same thought earlier this week but did not take any action. Thanks for your action Philip. I have one suggestion- Call the thing "Suggestions for getting the best results on the SuSE list" or something to that effect. I think this would be much more palatable to Linux users who lean toward nonconformity and have a distaste for "rules". Greg Lehey posts a weekly blurb on the FreeBSD list much like what you are talking about. It might prove to have some valuable information in addition to the suggestions in the German list. The url where it can be found is: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html -- Bob F EMail FBob@wt.net A Truly Wise Man Never Plays Leapfrog With A Unicorn... -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

sorry if sended twice - my provider sucks Steve Sheriff wrote:

Please let's leave the list as it is. Anyone who wishes to can join the German rule book if they so wish. Here in Spain, we do not have the discipline of Northern Europe. We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us. It is a relief to newcomers to find a list like this. Just try a previously posted question to most other lists to find yourself the idiot of the list in no uncertain terms. As a newcomer six months ago I could have got nowhere near where I am today without the freedom to talk to this list. We are trying to encourage newcomers I hope. Please let them have the same opportunity to post as I had.

Otherwise, yes.

Hey Steve and Clara, The way the netiquette is intended to be set up does not interfere with free speech in any way. Being born in Germany I understand the concerns from people about over-regulation totally. This netiquette - if not being bloated - will not be an example of such. I myself would find it helpful to send a copy to every new subscriber. Those "Test", "HTML" and "long quote" e-mails kindda annoy me. Especially for newcomers a link to the databases would be great because many sendmail, firewall and sound problems are VERY similar. IMO there should not be a need to answer them on a weekly basis. I am opposed to "RTFM's" as much as you are and I believe this list was always a good example of how people can work together without editor, desktop or distro-flaming. (Or @ least not with such a massive extent as you find it in usenet). This will help to maintain the list as a forum for both "newbies" and more experienced users. Nobody should become annoyed by the same stuff every 2 days. Just the 0.02 from a German Jamerican 8) cheers - sasa -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Steve Sheriff wrote:

On Sat, 01 Apr 2000, you wrote:

...

Hi Phillipp et al,

On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

The users of the German suse-linux have created an etiquette which is posted once a month on the list. You can have a look at a slightly outdated translated version at

Personally I see no reason to have rules on this list. We are doing fine without them. I know that Germans in general love the rule book. Heck, the stamp club I belong to has it in the rule book that we all will say "du" to each other.

Please let's leave the list as it is. Anyone who wishes to can join the German rule book if they so wish. Here in Spain, we do not have the discipline of Northern Europe. We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us. It is a relief to newcomers to find a list like this. Just try a previously posted question to most other lists to find yourself the idiot of the list in no uncertain terms. As a newcomer six months ago I could have got nowhere near where I am today without the freedom to talk to this list. We are trying to encourage newcomers I hope. Please let them have the same opportunity to post as I had.

I think there's some confusion here between rules and etiquette. It would be a good idea that when someone subscribes to the list, they get a message describing recommended practices -- but I don't think we should enforce them. An example of a recommended practice: use descriptive subject lines, not titles such as ``Plea for help''. Such practices benefit everyone on the list. Paul Abrahams -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

* Steve Sheriff (fsanta@arrakis.es) [20000401 20:18]:

of Northern Europe. We just like to talk. *Please* do not inflict rules upon us.

No one is going to inflict rules. These would merely be guidelines, telling you where possibly else to look and how your messages *should* look like (plain ascii, _selective_ quoting etc. ) in order to *avoid* getting people annoyed. Just as side note, I'd heavily push for something like 'a bit of humor is never wrong here' and 'be patient, respect other views and keep in mind that for many people here english is not their native tongue' to be part of such guidelines. Free as it may be, please remember that this is communication and as such *there are* rules to which most of us abide, whether they are outspoken or *not. F.i. there is no explicit rule banning rude behaviour, yet start doing *exactly* that and watch the firework resulting from it :) Philipp, who's rather pleased by the amount of discussion ;-) -- Philipp Thomas SuSE GmbH, Schanzaecker Str. 10, D-90443 Nuremberg, Germany #define NINODE 50 /* number of in core inodes */ #define NPROC 30 /* max number of processes */ -- Version 7 UNIX fuer PDP 11, /usr/include/sys/param.h -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

* BobF (FBob@wt.net) [20000401 21:46]:

I think this would be much more palatable to Linux users who lean toward nonconformity and have a distaste for "rules".

You certainly have a point there ;-) I would also tend to put me into that group, but my experience also shows me that some outspoken guidelines do help to avoid hassle. As already stated, this list is bound to increase in volume. And in contrast to the early adopters of Linux, which mostly already had some kind of Unix background or at least a rather solid computer knowledge, I now see more and more People trying to use Linux that would also have a hard time doing some of the more lowlevel Windows stuff. Now before anybody misreads that, let me state up front that this is nothing to be ashamed of and I don't blame anybody for being in that position. Heck, there was a time I also had to look up nearly every command. It's not knowledge that counts but rather the wish to become so. With this shift in user base, which I do notice from sharing an office with coworkers that do installation support, the more basic questions are bound to increase in volume. And with the increasing volume the signal to noise ratio tends to decrease. Now I'd like this list to stay the rather homely and friendly place it is, thanks to all you folks participating. And it's for that reason I'm proposing to come up with guidelines most of us can agree on. This would give those freshly joining the list some hints as to how to make the most out of it and those already longer on the list less reason to leave.

The url where it can be found is: http://www.lemis.com/questions.html

Thanks for the pointer! I'll definitely have a look at it. -- Philipp Thomas SuSE GmbH, Schanzaecker Str. 10, D-90443 Nuremberg, Germany Newsgroups are like parliaments, their content doesn't make the building illegal. - seen on a german newsgroup -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

On Sun, 02 Apr 2000, tabanna wrote:

SO, let's appoint a Sheriff & Sheriff's Deputy, to see Fair-Play, Protect the Piano-Players, and prevent Shootings in the Saloon.

We have tried that down here in Texas with less than satisfactory results........... ;-) -- Bob F EMail FBob@wt.net A Truly Wise Man Never Plays Leapfrog With A Unicorn... -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

I didn't really want to add too much to this thread - but here goes.. I am a relative newbie too, I have learn't an awful lot from you all and long may it continue. RTFM, Check the archives etc do very little good IMHO, things change so rapidly that the manual etc may not apply any more (winmodems USB et al) All I would say however, is to request that people just pause a second before pressing the send button, would you say face to face what you have just written about someone ?? Thats my lot...... Pete -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

If you don't like the word "rules", how about protocols. The Internet works because there are protocols. Without open protocols, might makes right and the 500 pound gorilla takes over the party. An excellent response. Well said. I don't understand why there is

Jeffrey Taylor wrote: this much hostility to such a good idea. Damon Register -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/