On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 11:51:29AM -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:

...

Can Novell/Attachmate people set a mailing list intended for only home users where they could be helped much better?

No by two reasons: a) we already have more than 80 lists. b) the rules when a new list gets created are quite simple: as soon as there is a need. Ok, by all the noise _you_ created alone in the last days it might be time to create a dedicated list to you. ;) There are common rules when an additional list gets created. I've seen projects suffer from too many lists. And I count openSUSE as such a project as I tried to stress in the past. See for example Samba, we're driving the project with two main lists. Creating a new list or closing one is nothing which is driven by SUSE. It's up to the project which decides as it decides on other project issues.

...

P.S. I am not saying that these lists are not the best place for any solution. Rather if anything like a separate newbie channel could be established, that could be more of a great en-devours and I bet this would also be a reason that in the coming 1-2 years, openSUSE would hit the world with no.1 position.

I have suggested this since I have liked openSUSE to a great extent and feels as if it is MINE distribution of choice. I know, I might be wrong for this suggestion, but since it came in my mind, I wanted it to say to the owner of the Novell/Attachmate director.

That seems to happen naturally.

Most of the home users and more basic support takes place on the forums. (There is advanced stuff there too, but you are correct that the mailing lists tend to be far more technical.)

http://forums.opensuse.org/

You should check them out.

Thanks Greg. I always forget the forums. That sound like a very, very good suggestion. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

That seems to happen naturally.

Most of the home users and more basic support takes place on the forums.  (There is advanced stuff there too, but you are correct that the mailing lists tend to be far more technical.)

http://forums.opensuse.org/

You should check them out.

And I understand there is a forum to email mechanism available if you want to still use email, but participate in the forums.  (nntp)  Look on the wiki I think for instructions of how to do that.

Oh thanks Greg, I would see the forums then. Thanks. Whenever I read your mails, or replies, I found them most appropriate on the archives - without the loss of topic, accurate, to the point, and without any extra burden (like many add in their mails). Thanks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

You're better off adressing such requests to SUSE, even better openSUSE: admin@opensuse.org (I think).

Oh I see.

Regardless, the help you're looking for is (or should be) available here and in the opensuse fora.

Ok I would try.

Main issue - a newbie-channel doesn't work, because you'll have newbies helping newbies.  In order for a list or forum to work, it has to have a mixture of experience levels.

If a newbie channel is to be started, of course, the persons who would be answering should be knowledgeable and it is clear that newbies cannot help since they themselves are newbies. It is the common sense. But if that channel is to be created, then, without a doubt, the experienced users (even thought their no. could be low) should handle it initially and it add to the popularity of suse, however, as Lars says, the lists get generated only is there is need or when many newbies point to it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Dec 9 06:02 Linux Tyro wrote (excerpt):

Most of the people I have seen on openSUSE list here are either experiences Linux users or those who know all things in Linux, but I have seen very few newbies (like me) who directly come to openSUSE.

I don't know if there are special restrictions who could subscribe to the opensuse@opensuse.org list but I assume this list is meant for everybody so that also newbies are appreciated here. At least this is how I understand http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_lists ------------------------------------------------------------------ User support lists These lists are for generic questions and User to User support for the openSUSE distribution. opensuse@opensuse.org ------------------------------------------------------------------ In contrast "Development lists" are probably not intended to answer newbie questions. But I assume there is also no restriction that a newbie can subscribe to "Development lists" to see what goes on. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Dec 9 07:06 Linux Tyro wrote (excerpt):

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

I don't know if there are special restrictions who could subscribe to the opensuse@opensuse.org list but I assume this list is meant for everybody so that also newbies are appreciated here. ... You are correct and I agree. But the newbies who ask questions get RTFM type of replies which makes one frustrate. However, I would manage but still that request was _if_ it could be possible.

When a mailing list is meant for everybody, the result is various kind of posting style (except rude or otherwise unacceptable stuff). If some kind of posting style is not meaningful for someone, he or she could either ignore it or ask for a more meaningful response - but there is no right to demand a particular kind of response. For example I ignore postings which are not meaningful for me. And others do not have the right to demand an answer from me. I think special mailing lists for newbies won't help them as much as now where all kind of users use the same mailing list for generic questions and User to User support so that even newbies can get replies from experienced users - regardless whether or not every reply can be understood by a newbie. I think a separated list for things like "newbie to newbie support" would be basically useless. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH -- Maxfeldstrasse 5 -- 90409 Nuernberg -- Germany HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendoerffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 09:34:54 -0500 Linux Tyro wrote:

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

For example I ignore postings which are not meaningful for me.

+1

Would follow the same strategy from now.

...

I think special mailing lists for newbies won't help them as much as now where all kind of users use the same mailing list for generic questions and User to User support so that even newbies can get replies from experienced users - regardless whether or not every reply can be understood by a newbie.

Okay, I understand.

...

I think a separated list for things like "newbie to newbie support" would be basically useless.

While your suggestion of ignoring the mail (if not suited) is better but if the new list were to be formed, it would be "experienced to newbie support", since only experienced only can support but why Novell would do it, that I understand. Hi You should login to the forum, use your current newsreader and select usenet and point it towards forums.opensuse.org, no paswword or account required.

If you decide to create an account then I suggest using @no-mx.forums.opensuse.org as your email then it will associate with the webside account. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.9-desktop up 1:43, 4 users, load average: 0.02, 0.06, 0.05 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 290.10 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/9/2011 9:34 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:

While your suggestion of ignoring the mail (if not suited) is better but if the new list were to be formed, it would be "experienced to newbie support", since only experienced only can support but why Novell would do it, that I understand. So what you want is for some of us to subscribe to YET ANOTHER list to mentor newbies? This list does fine helping the new comers when the new comers put in the time to try to at least learn and experiment and try to understand instead of expecting them to be catered to or spoon fed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/9/2011 12:59 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:

Since Ubuntu can do then why not us? But I understand that Canonicals Ltd. is a more rich company which could do this... However, at the same time, I feel openSUSE is better than Ubuntu. I wish openSUSE were as rich as Canonicals so that even the newbies could have been supported with a technical list concerned more to them....Hmm, as I said, I would look at: fourms, thanks.

It doesn't have as much to do with moneys as it does that there are only enough people to go around in the lists. Ubuntu *is* very user friendly. Perhaps if that's the type of help you need, you should hang out there. The people on this list have jobs and families, and are more than willing to help people, but to find the time to VOLUNTEER to help newbies, especially people that refuse to try to help themselves, as that list would probably be populated with, is asking for a lot. Also, Attachmate is *not* a linux company. They're in the business to make money. They have said as much. They will focus on the paid for versions. It is not in the best interest of an investor group to provide free support and services that they will not capitalize on. It's just the cold reality of being a for profit business. Resources for hosting the lists cost money, and if nothing comes back in to balance that out, it is unlikely to happen with a for profit company. Canonical is a linux company. It is a huge focus for them. To them it would make sense because in the end it *could* generate money. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Canonical has good support but I´ve heard about cases where the Canonical support was just buillshit because that guys don´t know what about they´re talking.

Really? I didn't know this thing -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/9/2011 12:59 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

...

So what you want is for some of us to subscribe to YET ANOTHER list to mentor newbies? This list does fine helping the new comers when the new comers put in the time to try to at least learn and experiment and try to understand instead of expecting them to be catered to or spoon fed.

Since Ubuntu can do then why not us? But I understand that Canonicals Ltd. is a more rich company which could do this... However, at the same time, I feel openSUSE is better than Ubuntu. I wish openSUSE were as rich as Canonicals so that even the newbies could have been supported with a technical list concerned more to them....Hmm, as I said, I would look at: fourms, thanks.

Even better idea, how about we make a list where people come mow my lawn for free? I'm a lawn newbie and I don't have time to do it myself. Other people who know a lot about lawns and own lawnmowers should share their lawnmowers and their saturdays with lawn newbies. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

Even better idea, how about we make a list where people come mow my lawn for free? I'm a lawn newbie and I don't have time to do it myself. Other people who know a lot about lawns and own lawnmowers should share their lawnmowers and their saturdays with lawn newbies.

Look, we frankly aren't based on the idea of noob-friendliness. Frankly though, with YaST and a strong stance on security we actually wind up being more friendly than most. And a mailing list isn't a matter of wealth, and even if it was Canonical isn't doing better than the companies under Attachmate. From most estimates I'm aware of, Canonical isn't even profitable.

Thats okay and I have liked suse much but at least you can have the docs like that of Ubuntu? See https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/basic-commands/C/ where all things are explained from such a basic level that even persons from other field can read so nicely and learn something which people often misunderstand to be geeky. Well, in fact and in realities, while I have liked Suse more than Ubuntu (because of more clean and better architecture) but you can have such documentations which would be an added advantage, especially for us. Thanks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-12-14 at 11:31 +0000, Bob Williams wrote:

...

Thats okay and I have liked suse much but at least you can have the docs like that of Ubuntu? See https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/basic-commands/C/ where all things are explained from such a basic level that even persons from other field can read so nicely and learn something which people often misunderstand to be geeky. Well, in fact and in realities, while I have liked Suse more than Ubuntu (because of more clean and better architecture) but you can have such documentations which would be an added advantage, especially for us. It's already there http://doc.opensuse.org/products/opensuse/openSUSE_114/opensuse-reference/ch... That Ubuntu article is very good, but it's more or less distro agnostic.

+1 Writing that type of documentation under the heading of a distribution is a monumental waste of time. 99.44% of that article applies to my IBM pSeries running AIX! There are hundreds, if not thousands, of UNIX command-line primers. Use anyone you like. Or get the O'Reilly book.

IOW you don't have to be running Ubuntu to benefit from it, as the bash commands it deals with are common to all modern Linux systems. The same goes for the openSUSE article I referenced above, which actually provides a lot more detail than the Ubuntu article.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/14/2011 10:46 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

...

http://doc.opensuse.org/products/opensuse/openSUSE_114/opensuse-reference/ch... But that article is for 11.4 suse, all commands equally work with 12.1 openSUSE also?

Yes.... The original question you asked was about the mailing list. I think that has pretty much run its course. Now, this has morphed into a tangential question about commands and documentation. Don't you think it is about time to let this "thread" die? And, if you have additional questions to raise them in a separate thread with a new and meaningful Subject line? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linux Tyro said the following on 12/14/2011 09:46 AM:

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

...

http://doc.opensuse.org/products/opensuse/openSUSE_114/opensuse-reference/ch...

But that article is for 11.4 suse, all commands equally work with 12.1 openSUSE also?

I should think that for all except the distribution-specific commands, thinks like zypper, yum, apt-get, the command documentation you referred to about ubuntu would apply. After all, the distributions are about packaging and added value, not about core functionality. I run, have run for a long while, openSuse, Mandriva and Fedora. Apart from those distribution-specific commands the only differences I'm seeing between them is different revisions of a few things like Samba, Dovecot and the like. Dovecot, for example, has just had a new release this month, and there is a radical difference between the way the config files are structured in the release 1.2 that I'm running on my mandriva mail hub and the current 2.x series. Nothing new here: the same applies with major revisions in many other packages. But the core functionality stays the same. And yes, many shell scripts from the pre-BASH days will still run fine under modern bash. That being said, when new things come out, there is always a lag. Many of the things we're used to with Linux that we've "inherited" function and form from the old UNIX days are very well documented. For example, the 'sysvinit' that is currently being replaced by SystemD came out at the beginning of the 1980s when the Unix Systems Group at Bell released SYSIII. And oh boy did it cause uproar! many loved it, many hated the 'straight-jacket and stratification' that it represented. And there was very little documentation and how-to for it. Just the examples USG had supplied and the sparse, unhelpful man pages. In fact USG had in some places removed shell scripts and replaced them with compiled code! Shock-Horror! It means there were fewer examples of shell scripts to learn from. Three decades on we have plenty of documentation and examples and consider it the norm. (Unless you use a BSD-type system). Yes, its the beginning of the learning curve, and the best we can do is discuss and identify the issues and shortcomings and write blog entries, wiki entries and how-to, and build up the available knowledge base. That will help those who can google. -- To do anything in this world worth doing, we must not stand back shivering and thinking of the cold and danger, but jump in, and scramble through as well as we can. Sydney Smith -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-12-14 at 12:07 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

On Wed, 2011-12-14 at 11:22 -0500, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 6:31 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

...

http://doc.opensuse.org/products/opensuse/openSUSE_114/opensuse-reference/ch... But that article is for 11.4 suse, all commands equally work with 12.1 openSUSE also? I should think that for all except the distribution-specific commands,

Linux Tyro said the following on 12/14/2011 09:46 AM: thinks like zypper, yum, apt-get, the command documentation you referred to about ubuntu would apply. After all, the distributions are about packaging and added value, not about core functionality.

+1

Do *not* use the web for such information; use the *local* documentation. That more-or-less is guaranteed to correspond to the command as installed [build options, version, etc..] on your workstation.

Or just run "xman" and you can browse the system documentation. [it used to be possible to see manual pages in yelp (GNOME Help), but that seems to have gone away].

On KDE, in dolphin, for the URL type: man:/ to get to the man pages. -- Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, December 15, 2011 04:21:41 AM Linux Tyro wrote:

I really didn't know that those are common,

Now when you know they are common, you understand why we like and use them very often. I can use 2, 3 or more desktops on different computers, but basic command line (shell) is always the same, so I have to learn commands only once. Also, if some command behaves differently, it is easy to figure out what it does in particular system: * <command> --help * <command> -h * man <command> * apropos <topic> You noticed <command> and <topic> that are placeholders for actual text, with hint "command" and "topic" what it stands for. Differences come from different versions, or different options compiled, which can make slight, but not major difference in behaviour. Also, there is bunch of shells that provide command line interface (CLI), but the most used commands and basic options are provided by any with same few letters, which is not the case with graphical user interface (GUI) where some basic stuff has completely different names. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Mind you, it makes me wonder. The average American can drive most cars. It doesn't matter abut the details of the layouts of the controls, the radio, the hears & a/c, even if the gear shift on on the floor or on the steering wheel stalk.

Well, with tongue in cheek a bit, I'd say that's not quite true. Many Americans can't use manual gearboxes (and in most countries its a separate test), many can't safely drive around a roundabout (especially in the Netherlands). I still regularly use the windscreen wipers to signal a turn when I drive a German car (I normally drive a Japanese one). I still don't remember which is the windscreen heater button and which is the rear screen heater in my own car, and I've had it nearly ten years! And the really important parts - the wheel and the pedals, are standard.

So why should the difference between Office 97 and Office 2008 bother them?

In a car, at least all the controls are in front of you and you can directly see and manipulate them. In computer programs, they're buried in layers of menus, or dialog boxes, or config files or registries and you have to discover where they are before you can even begin to try to understand them. Direct manipulation without understanding also can have more severe effects than switching on the wrong screen heater.

its a Learned Disability driven my marketing.

You are definitely correct that there are vested interests in computer training though. And never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. The Amstrad computer manuals had a picture of a mains plug and a socket at the beginning. That was because of the length of time the support people had to spend answering questions about why the computer didn't work that resolved down to it not being plugged in, and then the user not understanding exactly what had to be plugged in! Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, December 15, 2011 01:15:05 PM Roger Luedecke wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:31:18 AM Bob Williams wrote: ... http://doc.opensuse.org/products/opensuse/openSUSE_114/opensuse- reference/cha.new.bash.html#sec.new.bash.start ... I think looking at that URL though it does place a exclamation point on how difficult and convoluted it can be tto find good information buried in our domains.

The above URL is one that you copy and send other people to find specific chapter. All you have know is http://doc.opensuse.org which is nicely browsable web site. I use it often to point to specific information that even I don't know where is located when I start browsing, but indexes, as in any book, help me to jump trough chapters fast. To be honest, it is many users are focused on one little piece of information they need at particular moment, to solve one particular problem, without wish to learn few more facts that will help them to manage problems better. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 04:48:22 AM Linux Tyro wrote:

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Roger Luedecke

wrote:

...

...

Even better idea, how about we make a list where people come mow my lawn for free? I'm a lawn newbie and I don't have time to do it myself. Other people who know a lot about lawns and own lawnmowers should share their lawnmowers and their saturdays with lawn newbies.

Look, we frankly aren't based on the idea of noob-friendliness. Frankly though, with YaST and a strong stance on security we actually wind up being more friendly than most. And a mailing list isn't a matter of wealth, and even if it was Canonical isn't doing better than the companies under Attachmate. From most estimates I'm aware of, Canonical isn't even profitable. Thats okay and I have liked suse much but at least you can have the docs like that of Ubuntu? See https://help.ubuntu.com/10.04/basic-commands/C/ where all things are explained from such a basic level that even persons from other field can read so nicely and learn something which people often misunderstand to be geeky. Well, in fact and in realities, while I have liked Suse more than Ubuntu (because of more clean and better architecture) but you can have such documentations which would be an added advantage, especially for us.

Thanks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org We do have some veery good documentation, but I actually agree that we could be doing a better job of it. OpenSUSE is a strange animal in relation to Novell/SuSE/Attachmate. Though we are largely sponsored by SuSE, we are essentially an independent entity, and have very little practical connection with SuSE. Our primary connection is that many of the Novell and SuSE developers donate their free time to helping openSUSE with the building of the software and with fixes. But we are a primarilly volunteer organization, unlike Ubuntu or even Fedora. Essentially SuSE sits back and watches what we do and will gradually absorb our tech into their own Enterprise Linux, at which point we will then reap the benefit of fixes and improvements to that which they pick up.

If anything stated here needs correction or elaboration, please feel free. I am also still learning all the intricacies. -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Riverside, California ***Looking for C++ Mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 01:12:55PM -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote: [ 8< ] deleted superflous full quote

We do have some veery good documentation, but I actually agree that we could be doing a better job of it. OpenSUSE is a strange animal in relation to Novell/SuSE/Attachmate. Though we are largely sponsored by SuSE, we are essentially an independent entity, and have very little practical connection with SuSE.

Very, very little. Only the main infrastructure gets operated and financed by SUSE. There are some other big sponsors too. Their logos get displayed as soon as you open the web pages of build.openSUSE.org for example.

Our primary connection is that many of the Novell and SuSE developers donate their free time to helping openSUSE with the building of the software and with fixes.

This is a bit naive view to relation of SUSE to the project. The whole is a win win situation. When we publish for example Samba to the Open Build Service network:samba:STABLE repository you get what you pay for. "I'm paying nothing, so what do I get?" you might think. You might get a hot potato in the worse case. And with the majority of core components I expect it's the very same.

But we are a primarilly volunteer organization, unlike Ubuntu or even Fedora. Essentially SuSE sits back and watches what we do and will gradually absorb our tech into their own Enterprise Linux,

Also this is not right. If SUSE would sit back how would a big change like the systemd move be driven? It is as it is with many other Open Source Software projects. SUSE gives and gets something back. Parts are driven by SUSE other parts are more driven by community members. And all this isn't limited to software components which are part of the distributed operating system. See also the huge involvement of the community and even other corporations with the Open Build Service. See how well community and SUSE.com worked together at the last openSUSE conference.

at which point we will then reap the benefit of fixes and improvements to that which they pick up.

Sometimes this happens. But sometimes it's the other way around. As described above.

If anything stated here needs correction or elaboration, please feel free. I am also still learning all the intricacies.

I hope the statements above draw a bit more realistic picture. Thanks. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On 12/9/2011 1:04 PM, Duaine Hechler wrote:

On 12/09/2011 11:53 AM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

...

...

While your suggestion of ignoring the mail (if not suited) is better but if the new list were to be formed, it would be "experienced to newbie support", since only experienced only can support but why Novell would do it, that I understand. So what you want is for some of us to subscribe to YET ANOTHER list to mentor newbies? This list does fine helping the new comers when

On 12/9/2011 9:34 AM, Linux Tyro wrote: the new comers put in the time to try to at least learn and experiment and try to understand instead of expecting them to be catered to or spoon fed. I agree to a certain extent - meaning I was once a newbie too - however, I had the extra time to do research and play with it before I started asking questions.

There could be newbies that - unfortunately - need to be spoon fed. For example, my brother-in-law, is one. He barely knows how to run and spell a computer and sometimes even needed help to install stuff on a Windoze system. About 3 years ago, because of viruses crashing his system, I converted him to openSUSE Linux. For awhile, he was calling me a least twice a week for - something.

This maybe the kind of user that the other list is being spoken for ?

Duaine

He called you once or twice to fix something or for you to explain in great detail for him something he hasn't tried? I'm still newbieish myself, but I do experiement and try to research before I ask questions. And because of that I have even been able to help a little bit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

I'm still newbieish myself, but I do experiement and try to research before I ask questions. And because of that I have even been able to help a little bit.

+1 But you don't seem a newbie, is it really a fact? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

That's because if I don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation, I don't....

But I saw you responding to some queries which need high technical skillls, might be you knowing those all stuff but then you are no more a beginner. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

Please reply to the list, which I follow, I don't want off-list replies, thank you.

I didn't send you any email offline, I guess you are mistaken check the From address clearly. I don't your email address in any of the sent emails. However, by mistake I sent one email to Anton offlist since while replying the auto-address comes in the mailer is of the recipient who has posted (to which I we reply). So you are mistaken and have seen something wrong. Further, I have no reason to mail you personally --- not at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 2:31 AM, Thomas Taylor wrote:

Hi Linux Tyro;

Hello Tom.

This list is in no way restricted to not allow new users.  Many list members have spent a large amount of time answering questions for new users, myself included.  What you may not realize is that after some initial dialog between a newbie and experienced users, some communication is moved off list in order to not overwhelm the list with dialog related to some particular point or very specific hardware.

We're on this list to help others with problems related to openSuSE users needs.  There are also several linux forums which cater to openSuSE issues, the openSuSE forum and linuxquestions.org to name two excellent resources.

We welcome your questions and with the range of experience on this list it would be unusual if your questions could not be answered.  If a list was just for newbies, who would have the experience to answer the questions?

Well thanks for the explicit reply, and here is the conclusion that I would now definitely ask the questions here and in the forum and I hope that people like you would come (like you always had) to solve the newbie queries. Let_us_put_an_**end** to this thread here itself since the conclusion is clear now. Moreover, the two links you have given, so definitely those also are to be tried and definitely I guess I would enjoy openSUSE. I wish that all persons here were like you, however, might be they are (if I am not able to judge properly). I again thanks to your explicit reply. Kind Regards, Raganathan S (Linux Tyro) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org