P.M. Groen wrote:

On Saturday 20 November 2004 01:47, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Doug McGarrett [11-19-04 19:42]:

...

This is a fairly modern machine, and XP runs perfectly on it.

false statement. XP runs perfectly in only one situation and that is in the original sealed box!

True. On my laptop there was a sign saying "Designed for Windows XP". That sign is now on my trashcan.

Har! I put them on the urinals in the restrooms! There's one there from the Win-95 days. They have good longevity if you seal them in with clear shipping tape. Regards, Lew Wolfgang

P.M. Groen wrote:

On Saturday 20 November 2004 01:47, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Doug McGarrett [11-19-04 19:42]:

...

This is a fairly modern machine, and XP runs perfectly on it.

false statement. XP runs perfectly in only one situation and that is in the original sealed box!

True. On my laptop there was a sign saying "Designed for Windows XP". That sign is now on my trashcan.

A few years back, a friend peeled a "Ready for Windows 95" sticker off a monitor, and stuck it on the toilet. ;-)

Given KNOPPIX a try for hardware issues. It is very good at finding hardware/drivers and is a bootable CD "www.knoppix.net" Very handy tool! On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:44:44 -0500 d gleba wrote:

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Hello, all--and probably goodbye--

I know you have been helpful thruout all this time-- I've been with SuSE since 7.1, but I've had it.

I recommend you leave you 'broken' suse on, and install xp and another distro, like say Mepis, and see what the these do. This will help determine if there is a hardware problem. Install them 'clean' to see what an unaltered software install does.

You could even install another suse 9.2 and see how it runs clean. Do you run as root or a user in most cases?

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

73 de Donn Washburn aka N5XWB

I think the problem is that the ratio of flawless installations to problems is much greater in 9.2 than it was in previous versions. There would even appear to be less hardware support. Now that may be by design, I don't know. I know that I have at least one controller that 9.2 doesn't appear to find at all. It's a legacy card and nearly every distro previously has support for it. It's not that big of a deal, as I can do without it. Yet, if you total the experiences where have systems freezing and unexplained issues you get a big picture that just makes 9.2 look poor. And it's hard for those who've had a perfectly fine installation experience to full appreciate and that's probably a natural thing. You may have to try another distro for your hardware. I used to get reamed in IRC for trying to help someone by asking what distro they were running. People would say, "Linux is linux, that shouldn't matter." But I've seen hardware work under one distro and not under another, even within the same kernel releases. <shrug> -- <<JAV>> ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Donn L Washburn" To: d gleba Cc: suse-linux-e@suse.com Sent: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:26:54 -0600 Subject: Re: [SLE] I'm tired--9.2

Given KNOPPIX a try for hardware issues. It is very good at finding hardware/drivers and is a bootable CD "www.knoppix.net"

Very handy tool!

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:44:44 -0500 d gleba wrote:

...

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Hello, all--and probably goodbye--

I know you have been helpful thruout all this time-- I've been with SuSE since 7.1, but I've had it.

I recommend you leave you 'broken' suse on, and install xp and another distro, like say Mepis, and see what the these do. This will help determine if there is a hardware problem. Install them 'clean' to see what an unaltered software install does.

You could even install another suse 9.2 and see how it runs clean. Do you run as root or a user in most cases?

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

73 de Donn Washburn aka N5XWB

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com ------- End of Original Message -------

On Sunday 21 November 2004 03:31, jfweber@bellsouth.net wrote:

On Saturday 20 November 2004 9:40 am, Joe Polk wrote:

...

I think the problem is that the ratio of flawless installations to problems is much greater in 9.2 than it was in previous versions.

Seems to me this list in heavily weighted bad to good installs w/ every new release. Usually, except for the first 10-20 folks who get their boxed versions before anyone else does, and hurry to install it and report on the good bad or ugly, we don't hear from folks who have no problems. By the nature of this list, we get lots and lots of complaints. Especially from long time users who feel hard done by when some beloved piece of hardware no longer works as expected... or perhaps there is an issue w/ a new box and the new hardware isn't yet working as expected, nor even as it did before they upgrades.

I fear we all suffer from selective amnesia ... things we sweated and tweeked to get running, worked for so long, before we finally are bitten by the desire to upgrade bug... ( lie down and rest until the feeling passes <G>) we forget how much time and effort we spent doing the prior install. ;)

<snip> Yet,

...

if you total the experiences where have systems freezing and unexplained issues you get a big picture that just makes 9.2 look poor. And it's hard for those who've had a perfectly fine installation experience to full appreciate and that's probably a natural thing.

And as I said, the negative appearing picture might be less negative if all the easy installs and no problem at all installs on legacy systems were reported to the list.

I reported previously that my install was flawless. Nor have I experienced the same kinds of problems with SUSE 9.2. Some of the changes from 8.0 to 9.2 take a little getting used to. I still haven't had time to work on my Handspring Visor or my Kodak camera, but I have a feeling that I'll be able to resolve these last two issues when I get time to put my nose to the grindstone. I have noticed that, if I stay logged in for a few days (without logging out), the system seems to slow down. I think the system takes longer to boot than I anticipated (3 minutes), although I'm not starting any more services than I did with SUSE 8.0. However, speed is not an essential factor for me, as most apps load fairly quickly once I am logged in.

...

You may have to try another distro for your hardware. I used to get reamed in IRC for trying to help someone by asking what distro they were running. People would say, "Linux is linux, that shouldn't matter." But I've seen hardware work under one distro and not under another, even within the same kernel releases. <shrug>

I agree here. I have a couple of Live systems I use to check out hardware before I install, unless I know it's going to work already. Knoppix and several similar types of distros put a lot of emphasis on hardware detection and use. However, it still won't setup my sound card, and refuses to see my dsl connection... <shrug> On other systems I've tired it on, various things work or don't. a lot has to do w/ hardware combinations. And unless you build your won boxes , it's easy to get old hardware fobbed off as "free upgrades" Older dvd readers are being 'given away" as upgrades by some companies. They can't sell them as they are of limited use. Different strokes for different folks..

I, too, can see the need to try other distros. After all, isn't _choice_ one of the strengths of GNU/Linux? I cannot, for the life of me, suggest going back to Windows, as someone else suggested. Don -- DC Parris GNU Evangelist http://matheteuo.org/ http://chaddb.sourceforge.net/ "Free software is like God's love - you can share it with anyone anytime anywhere!"

Doug McGarrett wrote:

Well, the 9.2 was a new complete clean install, and I didn't customise anything except the screen colors and the mail send and receive information, which it twice forgot. It also customised KMail to suit itself. I'm not familiar with Mepis, but I will take a look on Google. I really don't trust MS for the future of computing, so I'll have to find some alternative, or knuckle under.

--doug

To clarify, what I suggest is to multiboot your current 9.2, and add xp, Mepis, and another 9.2. You won't lose anything and will likely gain what you need. The exercise may be worth the effort if it helps answer what works and what doesn't and therefore helps pinpoint the cause of your troubles. David

On Saturday 20 November 2004 14:50, Basil Chupin wrote:

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Hello, all--and probably goodbye--

I know you have been helpful thruout all this time-- I've been with SuSE since 7.1, but I've had it. The mail program (KMail) seems to forget its SMPT information, it also forgot its screen mode, now having to click twice on a message, and then having it come up in a little quarter- screen window. I've never been able to get any kind of sound, much less video, even tho the built-in noises work. Open Office will no longer open. I don't know where I go from here-- back to XP, for a while, I guess. I have a copy of Free-BSD, which I've never tried, but I guess I will. (9.1 crashed in such fashion that nothing would revive it. Before then, 8.2 gradually deteriorated to unusability. 9.2 has _already_ degraded to unusability.) This is a fairly modern machine, and XP runs perfectly on it. I guess I will be watching for a few days, while you all flame me, but enough is enough. Thank you for the help you have offered over the years.

--doug

I gave up when v9.1 came out.

I was really looking forward to 9.1 consdering how well Suse was progressing since I started using it from version 7.1 but was very disappointed with 9.1 (you will need to go back in time and read in the archives what p***** me off about 9.1). In a way I was anticipating problems with Suse 9.1 because (as I said in one of my msgs) it had become an American company and bean-counters and sales gnomes take over where intelligence once ruled.

So I switched to the OS which I previously only used on rare occasions and have had not a single problem now for, what, some seven months. Everything running like clockwork.

If you want to try out another Linux distro try Knoppix (latest is 3.6 I think- at least this is what I have).

It recognised everything I've got, including the TV tuner card. And I can access all my HDs' partitions and DVD ROM and burner.

Suse 9.2 Live Evaluation doesn't even activate my sound card, and as far as my tv tuner card is concerned 9.2 is totally oblivious to the fact that I have a tv card installed. And it shows that I have no HDs or a DVD ROM or burner.

By me responding here you can see that I still keep track of what is going on with Suse in the hope that maybe in the future it will come good again and I'll be able to go back to my favourite (well, not at the moment) Linux distro.

Cheers.

-- Douglass's Law: Clutter tends to expand to fill the space available for its retention.

I got fed up with myriad of problems as well after about 3 re-installs, with varying different faults, but I still had the same problems with USB sticks as what I had in 9.1. So I've installed Slackware 10, and not only is it much quicker, everything works! So II'll be sticking with Slack in future. Richard G. -- Registered Linux User: 256848 Failure isn't an option -- it comes bundled with microsoft windows

On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:33:04 -0500 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

goodbye --

Sorry, Patrick, - been out all day (rugby), you beat me to it! Terence

* Joe Polk [11-20-04 19:40]:

I think the culprit may be the 2.6.x kernel. I get the feeling a lot was removed for simplicity's sake.

top posted full quoted and the statement has no relativity to the quote. Is this a puzzle? Oh, I remember. It's an accountability thing, SuSE and the rest of the world owe you something. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

On Sunday 21 November 2004 06:08, Sid Boyce wrote:

2.6 kernels have been fine since 9.0, with the odd glitch of having to lad some modules manually, for 9.1 they have been OK also. With 9.2, ther SuSE kernel didn't have the intel8x0 sound module, so I just booted up a kernel.org kernel that I had built in 9.1. So far, no problems after the dire trials with upgrading and installing.

Tell me you are joking about the intel8x0. Was this a *fresh* install or an upgrade? -- Greetings from /bill at 169 west , 19 south. Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors."

On Sunday 21 November 2004 18:08, Sid Boyce wrote:

With 9.2, ther SuSE kernel didn't have the intel8x0 sound module

~> rpm -qpl kernel-default-2.6.8-24.i586.rpm |grep intel8x0 /lib/modules/2.6.8-24-default/kernel/sound/pci/snd-intel8x0.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8-24-default/kernel/sound/pci/snd-intel8x0m.ko ~> rpm -qpl kernel-default-2.6.8-24.3.i586.rpm |grep intel8x0 /lib/modules/2.6.8-24.3-default/kernel/sound/pci/snd-intel8x0.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8-24.3-default/kernel/sound/pci/snd-intel8x0m.ko Since I don't have the hardware I can't say if it works or not, but the module is most certainly there

* Terence McCarthy [11-20-04 16:54]:

Sorry, Patrick, - been out all day (rugby), you beat me to it!

Good sport. I played Australian Rules Football for a couple of years *many* years ago (61-62), but now have no knees. Plan to get them both replaced shortly, but I believe contact sports will remain a memory. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

* Bill Wisse [11-20-04 20:42]:

On Saturday 20 November 2004 14:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Plan to get them both replaced shortly

Good luck with that. I hope you will get some *tolerant * knees. (sorry, couldn't resist) :-)))

sok youngin 8^). -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

* Randall R Schulz [11-20-04 21:11]:

On Saturday 20 November 2004 17:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

... I played Australian Rules Football for a couple of years *many* years ago (61-62), but now have no knees. Plan to get them both replaced shortly, but I believe contact sports will remain a memory.

Go for that knee-forgiving, serotonin-enhancing sport: Bicycling!

Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... ... Reapeat until death!

then, what to do with my Harley ??? <http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos/My '99 Harley WideGlide/> and when would I be able to maintain my high standing in this forum <grin>. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

Take your pick: A big fat beer gut and a couple of fragile pencils, or flat abs and great legs!

Darn, I meant to turn that web-cam OFFFFF. brb, gotta get another looong-neck. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

On Sunday 21 November 2004 7:59 am, Louis Richards wrote:

On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 21:38, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Take your pick: A big fat beer gut and a couple of fragile pencils, or flat abs and great legs!

Don't listen to him Patrick! There is no better way to relieve stress than to put the wind in your face.

http://www.afr1982.org/03_grandvic/index.php?ind=15

1997 Shriner Anniversary Ultra Clasic.

Louis Richards Former Secretary and Road Captain American Federation of Riders (retired)

Darn, I thought you were going to say a sailboat vs a gofast boat... either would be fine w/ me. Although I think there is some sort of ordinance against the motorized craft on the lakes in the Shenendoah area. Sails and pedal boats are fine tho .. and there are days when that sailboat can whizz down the length of the lake in record speeds. We got beaucoup big winds down here!

On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 20:28, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Randall R Schulz [11-20-04 21:11]:

...

On Saturday 20 November 2004 17:17, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

... I played Australian Rules Football for a couple of years *many* years ago (61-62), but now have no knees. Plan to get them both replaced shortly, but I believe contact sports will remain a memory.

Go for that knee-forgiving, serotonin-enhancing sport: Bicycling!

...

Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... Ride...Eat...Sleep... ... Reapeat until death!

then, what to do with my Harley ??? <http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos/My '99 Harley WideGlide/>

and when would I be able to maintain my high standing in this forum <grin>.

Error <404> Hmmm

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 08:36:34 -0600 Donn Washburn wrote:

80K and runs like a top.

Goes round and round in circles, and then falls over? Terence

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Richard Gelling [11-20-04 10:37]:

...

I got fed up with myriad of problems as well after about 3 re-installs, with varying different faults, but I still had the same problems with USB sticks as what I had in 9.1. So I've installed Slackware 10, and not only is it much quicker, everything works! So II'll be sticking with Slack in future.

goodbye

I'm sticking with SuSE, but 9.2 has had its share of problems, it appears to have different personalities of a schizophrenic nature, so the problems people are encountering are real and need to be addressed. My employer of 25 years started out as the company with ideas, we made the best, most Powerful and robust mainframe hardware and in the process we made LOTS OF MONEY. Then the business types infiltrated the decision making process, it was a waste of resources trying to be the BEST, so the strategy was set - JUST MAKE MORE MONEY! - simply by applying the best Marketing Skills. The strange result, we never again made the BEST computers and we MADE LESS MONEY, till eventually we faded from existence, remaining only as an insignificant rump in a PC Sales outfit. The point here is, marketeers will advise SuSE that you can put this sort of stuff out and if you can stage a few good reviews, the job is well done. They are right, sales boom, more headlines showing good figures, but not for long. The Marketeers will move on to ruin some other unsuspecting outfit, the honest toilers will probably look for something more rewarding to do. I've seen Computer Architects laid off and reskilling as Chefs. It can happen - probably will, a few years down the road, remember I said so. Companies get properly established with a certain genetic code that may, if flawed, inexhorably lead to extinction, the Officers at the top believe that from their high perspective, they have an all-round view mere technical staff can't possibly have, unfortunately their ears are also a long way away from the comments and rumblings of dissatisfaction. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =====LINUX ONLY USED HERE=====

söndag 21 november 2004 03:40 skrev Sid Boyce:

Then the business types infiltrated the decision making process, it was a waste of resources trying to be the BEST, so the strategy was set - JUST MAKE MORE MONEY! - simply by applying the best Marketing Skills. The strange result, we never again made the BEST computers and we MADE LESS MONEY, till eventually we faded from existence, remaining only as an insignificant rump in a PC Sales outfit. The point here is, marketeers will advise SuSE that you can put this sort of stuff out and if you can stage a few good reviews, the job is well done. They are right, sales boom, more headlines showing good figures, but not for long.

I don't think it's "just" the buisness types, at all. Remember, that Bill Gates is a buisness man ... he's not a guru, and even if computer literate, his sofware is acquired and not made by him. But he's a successful buisnessman, whose made a lot of money over a long period of time. And then, every University teaches you (or ought to), that there's a threshold in development. You can continue developing indefinately, at some point you have to stop and say "that's it". It doesn't mean, that the software is good, nor that it's perfect. What needs to be done, at this point, is establish a work-line, where it's clear that if you follow a to b, the result will be c. This is why lots of software and hardware wendors, also provided educational courses to educate people, on how-to use the software or hardware they provided. It's this last part, that is lacking, in our current time-frame. And, yes, it's the buisness types that caused it ... it's those kind of buisness people, who enter a certain buisness, with an exit stragety the moment the came in. They're not in there, to accomplish anything ... just to make a buck, and they'll leave everything, the moment they see it's no longer profitable. I think, the computer industry has felt their presence more than any other field, but it's also the fault of the industry itself ... as the industry is also to blame for, not only selling to buisness adventurers, but also hiring less-than-average-developers. The computer industry is also full of "it's more profitable to sell lot's of services, than to sell a good product" ... so the "good" programmers, and the "guru" meditator are no longer valuable. It's all outsourced, to third world countries ... because it doesn't matter, as those companies will make the money on indefinite services, for indefinately buggy software. And this part, you can blame on the consumer ... who really isn't looking for "quality". Which is why such buisness-types, are in buisness in the first place. One of the "early" indicators of this, was the trend that instead of making "better" software, there was only faster hardware bought. At this moment in time, I'm using a 64bit machine, with 1 Gb of memory, for desktop use. When 20 years ago, a mainframe had 4 - 64 Megabytes of memory, and was servicing hundreds of users. Consumers, and companies decided to stick to Windows and get a "faster" PC to have the program work faster ... this was then countered by the "human" factor, which means that it doesn't make any sense to have a computer work faster when it in reality has to wait for a users input, which is limited by the users typing, viewing, thinking speed. So a clock was made, that would make sure the system would wait X seconds, for user input, instead of simply doing it as fast as it could handle the data. So, we're back at square one ... now I got a 64bit system, but I got a 32bit internal PCI bus. You get where I'm going ... and make note, that this will happen in all other fields as well... and you can see the trend, right now. Company A, is making X amounts of Euros/Dollars today. Next quarter, it makes X-n amount, which is n amounts less than last quarter. They call this a LOSS of n amount. My 0,2€ worth.