On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 08:56:02AM +0200, houghi wrote:

On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 08:19:45AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

- You can restrict the information it sends on your hardware and system to a minimum.

For some people minimum is still too much, although it is very obvious that the data that is send has only statistical use. The moment you send somebody something, they will see your IP. The use for this is to see e.g. in what countries how much is downloaded.

The timezone is actually used to determine the mirror you get. Just like before, except before it was done on every YOU call.

That all said, it is very easy not to register by selecting 'later'. Naturaly by testing the internetconnection, you already give away your IP adress.

This has not changed from the previous versions, except we downloaded the mirrorlist on every you start. You could be behind a proxy too which hides your ip address. Your provider likely has one. Ciao, Marcus

On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 09:35:30AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

You could be behind a proxy too which hides your ip address. Your provider likely has one.

Unfortunatly the proxy in the screen 'Network configuration' is at the bottom. I did not see it. Also many proxies do not hide your IP. Anywho. If you are that paranoid, you should not be on the interent, as every sever logs your data. I believe it to be a non-issue. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Fri, May 12, 2006 at 11:23:59PM -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Hi,

On Friday 12 May 2006 23:12, Erhard Sanio wrote:

...

Hello,

I realized that in 10.1, I am forced to register at Novell in order to be able to activate Yast Online Update even when I chose the OSS version. This made me abort the installation.

...

Is there a way to circumvent that annoying attempt on my privacy?

Lie?

There is not that much to lie about, as it is just a script that collects some HW info. Minimal is: Processor type (uname -p) Hardware platform (uname -i) Hostname (uname -n) As that is selected by themselves at that moment, who cares? Mine says : linux-t6zw A bit strange is that if you ask for more info, there is a connection to the server. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, 13 May 2006, Matt Bottrell wrote:

I personally don't like the collection of any information. Though it doesn't stress me.

Here in Australia there isn't a decent mirror to use (the ones listed on the opensuse.org site are dreadfully behind and are never updated). As such I manually select one that is fresh.

If a user has been smart enough to move away from Windows to run Linux as their desktop -- they are smart enough to figure out what mirror to use...

Actually, users should wast their time, looking for a mirror. They should just use download.openSUSE.org, which figures out what mirror to use ;) [download.opensuse.org by the way has seen more than 3 million hits within the last 48 hours -- hits in terms of directory listings and mostly redirects to our mirrors.] Regards Christoph

Thanks for your response and all other. Still I feel that demanding registration is a wrong way and should be abandoned. Politely asking for some information is a totally different thing. I would not hesitate to tell the project people a lot about hardware, software and general usage of Linux on any of my machines or just fill them in for statistical purposes. regards, E. Sanio -- ENOSIG GMX Produkte empfehlen und ganz einfach Geld verdienen! Satte Provisionen f�r GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner

this time is your signature lesser informative, but there is trace left in previous message :-)

Sure it is. If you ever come to Berlin during the weekend and don't know where to stay, you have the address and the phone numbers :) (This applies to all of you reading here *g*)

It is just how you understand the request. With option "later" it seems to be not much of mandatory.

Ok, it made a bad impression to me. It is all Open Source, voluntary work, no need to press the users. Not later, not at all.

On the other side it doesn't make difference at all as I never used automatic updates.

Well I love YOU, and use it happily with the UMTS card of my notebook as well as with my home DSL network. It is probably not perfect, but only a few steps from :). regards, E. Sanio -- Mobile Internet - E-Mail und Internet immer und �berall! GMX zum Mitnehmen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/pocketweb

Rajko M wrote:

[...] I can see that you was upset, but I can see from other postings that you accepted other reasons too, which mean that you are reasonable man. Sincerely I was upset too at first, but than I looked what they've asked; just a bit more or comparable to what usually leaves computer for almost every WWW connection. And later in this way they do is not pressure at all.

I don't think anybody here has a problem with the kind of information that is submitted. It seems to be only technical information - at least at the moment, and some parts of it are public anyway when you surf in the internet. But, you know, once such a "registration" is in place, it's very easy to change the amount of information being submitted, or to change the overall registration process. From my point of view, it creates the wrong overall picture for an open source community project (yes, I know that there is Novell in the background), some people are therefore suspicious. Maybe it's just the name that activates many warning bells, or it's the general trend to gather and stockpile all kind of information - whether really required for an operation or not. I think that Novell/SUSE have been a bit unlucky with some of the names they have chosen. For instance, calling the 10.0 SUSE version with the 3rd party software an "evaluation" version was very misleading. Maybe the word "registration" in this context here is just another example. Names need to be chosen very carefully, otherwise the users get the wrong idea of what this is all about... Just my 2 cents. Cheers, Th.

houghi wrote:

On Sun, May 14, 2006 at 11:42:01AM +0100, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

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I don't think anybody here has a problem with the kind of information that is submitted.

Erhard Sanio had a problem with it.

No, he had a problem with the way the registration works, not with the information that is submitted. You didn't get the point. Read his statement again: "Still I feel that demanding registration is a wrong way and should be abandoned. Politely asking for some information is a totally different thing. I would not hesitate to tell the project people a lot about hardware, software and general usage of Linux on any of my machines or just fill them in for statistical purposes" (quoting E. Sanio).

...

But, you know, once such a "registration" is in place, it's very easy to change the amount of information being submitted, or to change the overall registration process.

Sure that is possible, it is however not probable. The moment that happens, you don't use that product anymore. You know that, I know that and Novell knows that.

This is not true. Users might not be aware of changes (we all know that these messages, call them "info messages" at the moment or EULA etc. at the end of the day, are usually ignored by users), and many others would not have a chance or would not be willing to use another product. There might be no choice. How many of the Linux users have ever read the full GPL license? Of course, we are not there (yet?), but it's a first step into this direction. And that's why some people are suspicious. Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Maybe those people are wrong but it's good to keep an eye on the developments.

[...] From my point of view it make Linux a more profesional way of working.

Why should a registration process make Linux more professional? A registration process is known to annoy users - there has recently been an article in the German c't magazine about that phenomenon. Even companies that have valid licenses etc. often circumvent a registration process because it's annoying, does not really work as expected etc. (read my other email, we have seen this already happening with SUSE 10.1 and a wrong string being submitted, leading to a "no product to register"). So there are official studies about this topic. Read it!

Not only is it a bunch of people working on it, it also has the backing of a company that is motivated enough in Open Source. So much that even the shareholders say to keep on pushing this Open Source stuff and keep going in the Linux direction. The fact that you have a choice wether you want to send the information or not is more then we had before. Before we had one option: not to send anything.

You didn't get the point. Read my previous email or the thread again.

[...] I have long stopped being paranoid, because I know I am followed. Especially on the Internet.

This should not be an excuse to make it worse! Your behaviour is just a sign of resignation. The problem has nothing to do with paranoia. Cheers, Th.

houghi wrote:

On Sun, May 14, 2006 at 01:35:18PM +0100, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

...

...

I have long stopped being paranoid, because I know I am followed. Especially on the Internet. This should not be an excuse to make it worse! Your behaviour is just a sign of resignation. The problem has nothing to do with paranoia.

I think it has to do everything with paranoia. From `dict paranoia`: Unwarranted suspicion of the motives of others.

houghi

What if word paranoia is not proper term? If you have circumstances that resemble to something that you already have seen and you didn't like development, it is not paranoia, as it is not unwarranted, it is just sensitivity. -- Regards, Rajko.

houghi wrote: <snip>

I have long stopped being paranoid, because I know I am followed. Especially on the Internet.

houghi

This one is good :-D -- Regards, Rajko.

Michael Loeffler wrote:

[...]

I would like to bring in some facts into this discussion.

[...]

Thanks for that update! I would also like to provide some additional facts ;-) One fact is that the name "registration" has been chosen very injudiciously for such a process. With such a name, I think it was to be expected that people would be suspicious and would have objections against that process. Names need to be chosen very carefully because people don't make up their opinion by looking at the actual process or the real facts, they simply use whatever they associate with the term "registration" - and in many cases, this association is quite negative. But maybe Novell was already planning for the future and there is a good reason for calling this process "registration"... ;-) Cheers, Th.

On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 12:34:33AM +0100, PatrickM wrote:

Thomas Hertweck wrote:

...

Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

[...]

I would like to bring in some facts into this discussion.

[...]

Thanks for that update! I would also like to provide some additional facts ;-) One fact is that the name "registration" has been chosen very injudiciously for such a process. With such a name, I think it was to be expected that people would be suspicious and would have objections against that process. Names need to be chosen very carefully because people don't make up their opinion by looking at the actual process or the real facts, they simply use whatever they associate with the term "registration" - and in many cases, this association is quite negative.

So true...

...

But maybe Novell was already planning for the future and there is a good reason for calling this process "registration"... ;-)

Cheers, Th. "But maybe"... Doubt?

FUD policies?? (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt)

More and more people seem not to want it anymore. Personally i do not.

Registration will be used for our SUSE Linux Enterprise Products, where the name will be more fitting. Ciao, Marcus

houghi wrote:

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 08:20:53PM +0100, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

...

But maybe Novell was already planning for the future and there is a good reason for calling this process "registration"... ;-)

So how would you call the process then where a system registers data, like the data that is collected by SUSE?

I can help you out:

...

From Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 [moby-thes]:

25 Moby Thesaurus words for "registration": booking, cataloging, chronicling, enlistment, enrollment, entering, entry, filing, impanelment, indexing, inscribing, inscription, insertion, inventorying, itemization, listing, logging, matriculation, posting, record keeping, recordation, recording, register, registry, tabulation

I like "recordation" best because it sounds so much like 'New Speech'. What you are actually saying is "registration" always is the registration of people and will be used in a bad way.

If that is the case, welcome to 1984, because it already is too late.

Most of the time it's not worth discussing anything with you because you render each and every discussion useless. You've seen my emails and what you quote there is one comment with a smilie. If you don't try to understand the context of emails and if you focus on parts that are less important, then you didn't get the point and in principle it's just not even worth replying. The discussion has nothing to do with 1984 or paranoia or something like that. If you're happy with the current situation, well that's fine for you. You should, however, accept that other people have a different opinion which might be (at least) as noteworthy as yours. The word "registration" is usually used for a certain process (very well known from the Windows world). In SUSE 10.1, the same terminology is used for another process which does something different. However, users are sometimes not aware of this because they have a certain association when reading the term "registration" (I've already explained all of that in my last email, so I won't repeat it here) - therefore, some people are suspicious and feel uneasy and unhappy with that process (scan the archives of mailing lists over the last five days and you will recognize it). According to your definition, we could just call every internet connection a registration process because first of all I need to register with my ISP. Sorry, Houghi, but I think that's nonsense - I don't call that a registration process, I call it e.g. a "dial in" process. That's what it is. When the process that is currently called "registration" in SUSE 10.1 is mainly a replacement for the YOU setup (download of mirror lists etc.), then it should be called "mirror configuration" or something like that. I didn't carefully think about this terminology now so I don't know whether it's a correct one, I don't even know whether it's a better one, it just came to my mind... It's not the first time we have seen some strange terminology being used. With 10.0, the DVD with 3rd party software was called an "evaluation" version. Many people did get a wrong impression because of that name and they were confused (again, this statement is easy to prove by scanning mailing list archives). So if something similar happens again, I think it's worth pointing out this problem. And that's what I did. We can't change it (only Novell can do that) and Novell might have had a good reason to call it registration. So be it! Cheers, Th.

Michael Loeffler schrieb:

On Saturday 13 May 2006 21:28, Erhard Sanio wrote:

...

Still I feel that demanding registration is a wrong way and should be abandoned.

I would like to bring in some facts into this discussion.

We're talking abouth the automatic Onling Update Configuration. The purpose is to get a suitable update source configured for one's system. In order to deliver that service Novell's backend service needs to know a few things: - unique identifier - system architecture - product and product version - time zone

For what purpose do you need a "unique identifier"? As a suggestion, I would leave out anything "uniqe" and call the process "net optimization" instead of "registration", then everybody would welcome this nice feature, instead of sending critical comments. Just my 2 Cents. Ciao Siegbert

Am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2006 09:25 schrieb houghi:

I don't see this negative naming of calling it registration, especially as there is an opt-out.

As it *is* a registration it should also be called registration.

What I would do is calling the 'Later' something that will make it clear that it is optional,

yes

or add a third option (That does the same as the 'later' option) called: `I do not wish to register`.

yes ... and if the data gained by this registration is really useful and valuable for further improvements, why not point out and shortly explain why and how the users will benfit from the results? Registration is not bad per se, but many politically progressive persons (and of course people coming from the M$-world) are allergic to any form of registration - for good reasons. The private data that M$ steals from there users and then uses it against the interests of the users is one of the reasons why I never, never would use XP on one of my PC's. So it's quite understandable when people get suspicious of a system asking for registration and I'm sure it's worthwhile to spend some screen space for a honest and clear statement about the contents, reasons and use of the collected data. People will understand and be happy to contribute somewhat to the improvement of this great project. At least that's what I think. Daniel -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Switzerland professional photography: http://www.daniel-bauer.com special interest site: http://www.bauer-nudes.com

Daniel Bauer schrieb:

Am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2006 08:54 schrieb Siegbert Baude:

...

For what purpose do you need a "unique identifier"?

If the stats gained from the registration should be worth anything, I guess it's important to be able to sort multiple registrations out.

Did you read what Mr. Loeffler wrote? I cite it again:

...

Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

We're talking abouth the automatic Onling Update Configuration. The purpose is to get a suitable update source configured for one's system. In order to deliver that service Novell's backend service needs to know a few things: - unique identifier - system architecture - product and product version - time zone

So I talked about a service useful for both users and net. It is simply about optimizing net paths. All other steps were described as optional by Mr. Loeffler. So just call the things as they are: - net optimization, which requires architecture, version and time zone(location) - registration, which asks for additional unique information And again to Mr. Loeffler, what is the reason for a unique identifer for the "net optimization" step? Ciao Siegbert

Von: "Peter Flodin"

I find it ironic that somebody who has such concerns about their privacy is sending an unusually large amount of contact information to a listserver run by the same company.

Peter, My concerns do in no way mean that I am shy or paranoic. I strongly hold and defend the opinion that the indispensible counterpart of free speech is the free individual willing to stand up and be responsible for any of his/her public actions which means standing to the opinions expressed with name and personality, not just shouting and runnig away. Words are a weapon which is able to hurt, damage, even kill. I deeply contempt those who abuse computer networks for anonymous harrassment, slander, spam and similar (while some amount of anonymity may be useful and defensible under a number of circumstances). I intentionally posted my full business signature therefore (which btw. may be retrieved in the net anyway). I left more data than contained in that signature to SuSE quite often as I bought nearly every box since 4.3 or so til 9.1 (often more for curiosity and in order to support an Open Source enterprise than due to urgent need :)) and registered for support four or five times as I recall. I do not especially mistrust SuSE or Novell.

That said, I totally agree with the concerns expressed in your email.

I welcome that. I wanted to express that even minimal coerced registration is a strong obstacle for a number of persons. I refused to install Star Office for years because they demanded registration even when you had bought their product. Politely asking for registration or feedback is something quite different. I updated the Linux Counter thoroughly and veraciously for years (and still do) though or because there isn't any pressure behind. regards, es -- no sig this time :) "Feel free" - 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ... Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail

Erhard Sanio wrote:

There have been some complaints that the Release DVD is not available at the same time as the Release being submitted to the public. I do not back those complaints.

I fully understand that there are some days, up to a week or bit more, between stable release and DVD. The DVD iso, derived from the CDs or the build dir, has to be built and tested before being given out. For impatient people, susedvd does all the job. Once successful they may share their work via ptp.

Anyway, Opensuse Website is a legitimate subject for complaint. Notoriously, SuSE development is reported more timely and comprehensively at Slashdot, Heise, theregister etc. than on www.opensuse.org. Content Management through Mediawiki is an idea which works when many people are busy and eager to update. On opensuse.org, this does not seem to be the case. Ok, the other danger, that saboteurs or harassers spoil the content, does not apply either. Fortunately.

Anyway, Opensuse Website misses all and any expectation I would hold against the web presence of the possibly second most distributed Linux distribution. I would expect to be informed timely and truthfully about the next events, distributions, downloads, download formats, everything.

Somebody stated that a number of German elementary schools maintain better and more timely updated web servers than oensuse does. This should be a challenge to be met in the future.

regards, E. Sanio

Join us Erhard. More hands make more job done, and there is huge pile ahead. You will be never bored. Few minutes here, few there and in a year that makes nothing to you and a lot for community. -- Regards, Rajko.

houghi wrote:

On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 10:40:12PM +0200, Erhard Sanio wrote: <snip>

Please do not highjack another thread. Do not use reply and then change the subject. That makes it part of the thread you replied to for many users.

houghi

With Thunderbird it seems to be in "Registration in 10.1" thread despite change in subject that I noticed after your message. -- Regards, Rajko.