houghi wrote:

On Mon, Mar 13, 2006 at 04:22:31PM +0100, jdd wrote:

...

jdd wrote:

...

As french I'm writing very politely to any main miror site I know in France, of course

You could write in other countries as well. ;-)

I dont want to duplicate others efforts. I would be desastrous if the same ftp admin received mails from several sources. anyway my english is short for this (I can translate from english to french, but explain a ftp admin stuff is over my knowledge :-) and I thought is could be pleasant for french ftp admin to ahve a lettre from a fellow country man :-)

As ftp.opensuse.org will most likely have less downloads

less download, but very concentrated when new release come personally I think we all should use bitorrent. With a good amount of users it's nearly as fast as ftp. At least we should strobgly advocate so (and advocate keeping bittorent open all the time) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

houghi wrote:

...

personally I think we all should use bitorrent. With a good amount of users it's nearly as fast as ftp. At least we should strobgly advocate so (and advocate keeping bittorent open all the time)

When bittorrentdownload is around 50K and FTP download is around 500K, there is no real incentive to use bittorrent. What I do is download via FTP and then seed them.

Yep, exactly the same here. Bittorrent is sloooow as far as the opensuse IOSs go. /Per Jessen, Zürich

jdd wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Yep, exactly the same here. Bittorrent is sloooow as far as the opensuse IOSs go.

I recently downloaded 600Mo in two ours

two hours :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Bjørn Lie wrote:

Since you are french jdd, 2 ours sounds just about right ;)

some bears are reintroduced in the Pyrenes, not far from where I live :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On 3/16/2006 5:49 PM houghi wrote:

So to conclude: bittorrent might be the worst choice for most people due to several factors: 1) It is slower then FTP 2) You download 5 CD's instead of the needed 3

Then do torrents for each CD. So everybody gets only the ones he wants. OJ -- You can do magic! Surely you can sourt out - well - anything!? Scrimgeour [...] exchanged an incredulous look with Fudge, who really did manage a smile this time as he said kindly, `The trouble is, the other side can do magic too, Prime Minister.? (Harry Potter 6)

On 03/17/2006 11:49 PM Martin Schlander wrote:

Some (most? all?) BT-clients like Azureus offer the option to *not* download all the files in a torrent.

Which is not as user-friendly as having 5 torrents. IMHO. How about 1 complete torrent and 5 for the 5 CDs (or are there 6 CDs?). OJ -- "`You should write a book,'Ron told Hermione as he cut up his potatoes, `translating mad things girls do so boys can understand them.'" (Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 09:25:21PM +0100, Robert Schiele wrote:

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 09:12:08PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

...

On 03/17/2006 11:49 PM Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Some (most? all?) BT-clients like Azureus offer the option to *not* download all the files in a torrent.

Which is not as user-friendly as having 5 torrents. IMHO.

How about 1 complete torrent and 5 for the 5 CDs (or are there 6 CDs?).

Not very smart. This would split the users into two groups making the torrent system less effective.

There will be 6 CD's. And also it would become very confusing. Now there are already many URLs and you realy have to pay attention not to pick the wrong one. As there will be a DVD as well, this will only make it more. Or won't there be any delta's? houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 07:18:19AM +0000, David Bolt wrote:

With Azureus there's no need. You can stop it from downloading any of the ISOs by using Show details -> Files and then right-clicking on the ones you don't want to download. This pops up a menu and, by choosing Set priority -> Do not download, Azureus doesn't download them.

As I want to share later, this is not really an option. Perhaps a 3-CD torrent might be a nice idea, as those are the only ones that are really needed. OTOH it could become confusing if there are too many different types of download. We already have so many links that you can follow. :-( houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 09:14:35PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

On 03/18/2006 03:39 PM houghi wrote:

...

As I want to share later, this is not really an option.

ACK.

...

Perhaps a 3-CD torrent might be a nice idea, as those are the only ones that are really needed.

Isnt there a 1CD-Minimal installation?

yes, but the defauklt wich most people will use is 3 CD's. There also is the boot.iso wich is even smaller.

...

OTOH it could become confusing if there are too many different types of download. We already have so many links that you can follow. :-(

I dont think so.

CD1 FTP torrent ...

As the default is 3 CD's I would go for 3 CD's

DVD FTP Torrent

5CD-Set FTP Torrent

So how many links are that? And don't forget the delta-iso And then multiply all by 3 to get x86, x86-64 and PPC. Oh, and the CD6 as well. At this moment there are 26 URLs without the DVD and CD6. Adding another torrent for the 1CD (or the 3 CD, wich I prefer) , the DVD and the CD6 will make add another 10 (if I counted correctly) making it 36 URLs in total. I call that too many links for download. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 12:19:40PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

And then it is just 2 Links (FTP, torrent) for the DVD 2 Links for each of the 6 CDs 1 Link for the 6CD-Torrent

15 Links.

I call that a lot of lonks for one distribution. Also the 6CD link can not be given, so that will become the 5CD link. I don't call that 'just'. The only difference I see are the 6 extra links for the individual CDs. A general bad idea to split that up as the speed is slow already. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 03:15:55PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

The only reason I was thinking about it:

I understand the reasoning.

Most people try not to download the whole thing. If you only need the first three, then download them. Then you have everything you need to start installing.

I would say most people will download the whole thing. If they were interested in only downloading what they needed, we only would need either boot.iso or CD1. It has been posted before, but I can't find the post now, that the future might be only CD 1-3. Once this becomes official, you will see how many people WILL download the whole thing. The only reason I do it is to test makeSUSEdvd, otherwise I would use either only CD 1 or boot.iso

That should be the first goal, to get the people to installation quickly, without having them using the FTPs for too long.

Quickly? boot.iso or CD1.

Maybe the 3CD-Set torrent (one for 1-3, one for 4+5) would be a good idea. Then everybody would get the first 3CD-Set, and hopefully seed them again. Then this would be an improvement regarding the FTP-Load.

That could be a nice solution. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 07:40:08PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

On 3/21/2006 3:41 PM houghi wrote:

...

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 03:15:55PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote: I understand the reasoning.

...

Most people try not to download the whole thing. If you only need the first three, then download them. Then you have everything you need to start installing.

I would say most people will download the whole thing. If they were interested in only downloading what they needed, we only would need either boot.iso or CD1.

1. Boot.iso and CD1 are not "complete". If you want to install a "normal" system, you will need CD1-3 AFAIK.

I understand they are not "complete". I was refereing to just downloading what you need. For many people CD 4-5 are needed due to the language they want to install in. I asume just downloading CD1-3 instead of all 6 is due to not wanting to download what you don't need. If less download is what you are after, then a download of boot.iso _might_ be a better choice. This again depends on how many you want to install. On 1 machine boot.iso is more efficient. And if you want to install a "normal" system, boot.iso is enough as well as CD1. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 08:15:09PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

Boot.iso is for "advanced" users, I would say. Mr. Newbie would be better off to download CD1-3, and see if it lacks anything he needs. But he will be able to setup a "normal" System with that. And if he doesn't need anything, he wont be using the FTPs...

I would say Mr. Newbie would be better of to download the DVD. That way he does not need to see if it lacks anything. Well, ideally, the best Mr. Newbie does is go to the store and buy the boxed set. That way he has all that is also availanle via FTP, including the non-OSS stuff that would come on CD6. In both cases he does not have to worry that he wants non-English or non-German as a language. That might still be the majority of the people in the world. I have helped people with the boot.iso and they were newbies. Not a real issue. At least not much more difficult then a 3CD installation. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Wed, Mar 22, 2006 at 12:26:56PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

...

In both cases he does not have to worry that he wants non-English or non-German as a language. That might still be the majority of the people in the world.

And the minority is what we should aim at, when we want to decrease the FTP-load.

How does a 3CD download compare to a standard FTP installation with boot.iso when you look at FTP-load?

From the installers point of view, boot.iso will cause less download, so is better, especially if you are on a measured line with a max of download. If you do a standard KDE installation, you don't need to download the Gnome stuff. If you do the Gnome standard, you don't need to download KDE stuff. So from a users point of view, using the boot.iso is a better option.

It could be (please tell) that 3 large ISO's is better for the FTP server then a lot of small ones. Naturaly it will depend if all iso's can fit into memory and if there is enough bandwitdh available. So it might vary from server to server. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 12:04:55PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

I dont know. But again: Newbies and boot.iso...

It only needs 1 (one) extra step. to point it to the correct mirror. After that it is the same as the DVD installation. I have explained it to newbies and they were answering back from SUSE. That does not mean that it can not be improved, because it can. Instead of the need to enter the mirror yourself, a pre-selection (download.opensuse.org?) with the correct directory as default would be very helpfull. Mmm. Will look into it and open a request in bugzilla.

And AFAIK the ISOs might be in the RAM already, as the might be requested more often.

Due to the amount of CDs and DVDs and the fact that SUSE will not be the only one, that will be highly unlikely. I believe to have read that most do not have enough amount of memory. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Fri, Mar 24, 2006 at 10:49:49AM +0100, jdd wrote:

absolutely. and the wortst is that it's the IP of the serveur that is asked for, not the name, and this is not trivial for a beginner

The hardest part is finding the correct place in the first place. I just looked and could not find the correct URL to point in 10.1B8 houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 02:58:03PM +0100, houghi wrote:

I call that a lot of lonks for one distribution.

Links might be a better word. ;-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 09:13:24PM +0100, Johannes Kastl wrote:

But I must say this is something for "advanced users". I would recommend to have single torrents, so nobody gets confused about it. Remember the load of questions about which DVD to download? I fear this might come back.

With the naming being better now, that should, I hope, not be a problem, unless the marketing people thoucht it was a nice idea to call it 'evaluation' again. My undertsanding is that the following will be available: Boxed version (Not downloadable) Live version Downloadable version (DVD and 5 CD) Extra CD That should be much less confusing. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 09:17:15AM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Per Jessen [03-16-06 05:47]:

...

houghi wrote:

...

When bittorrentdownload is around 50K and FTP download is around 500K, there is no real incentive to use bittorrent. What I do is download via FTP and then seed them.

Yep, exactly the same here. Bittorrent is sloooow as far as the opensuse IOSs go.

Just a configuration problem. If you will limit the upload spped to 40-50k, your download times will increase.

That first depends on your up connection. If I do that, I get an even slower connection. Also I have had much higher speeds with other downloads. Speeds of 200 are not uncommon for a single download. 500 is the max I can get and on one occasion I have seen that with a torrent. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Per Jessen wrote:

Nope - the upload is usually set at max 30k, and doesn't go much beyond 50K anyway. Downloading an ISO from the SWITCH mirror, I get a rocksolid 156K/s, with bittorrent I've rarely seen more than 50.

when a new version is released, it's often impossible to join the ftp site... and most mirrors are _not_ uptodate. of course two weeks after, there are no more problems... :-) anyway users keep complaining about mirrors jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Thu, Mar 16, 2006 at 08:21:56PM +0100, Peter Czanik wrote:

I think, that beta testers should organize mirrors :-) I have one up to date mirror in Hungary, and I keep it up to date, as it's my best interest.

Not all have the possibilaty to do that. Also this is not so much about FTP. It is about torrent. With FTP I can get my 500K wich is my max.

Hungarian users have gigabit access to it. No link here, as our international lines are much narrower and much more expensive...

Filter on IP and you could post it here for hungarion users. Non-hungarian users will be banned.

I also provide 1M/s bittorrent, that's also available to international users and seeded a few terrabytes in the past weeks. A question to those, how use a torrent client: would it be better, if I limited the number of concurrent users?

No. That is done by the torrent itself. It just seems there is more bandwith available for FTP then there is for torrent. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Peter Flodin wrote:

I have always assumed this is because most home broadband users (ADSL & Cable in my part of the world) are assymetrical, so their upload speed is quite slow compared to their download speed.

I got 10Mb down and 1Mb up band. up seems to be quite constant upon users (when the down slows with distance) but so, it needs ten seeding users for one downloading. usually this number is largely out passed if the seeders get the connexion open for at least 24 hours, but the bt default is much less in fact the first contact I have with BT was odd because the first version of Ktorrent could not retsrain the upload and my connexion was filled by BT :-(. The native pilot got the trick. AFAIK Bittorrent was build to cope with large iso files download, with very great numbers of simultaneous users jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Hello, houghi írta:

Also people tend not to keep seeding omce they recieved. At this moment there are 6 delta-iso seeders and 11 iso seeders. There are more FTP mirrors then that.

I'm one of those, seeding iso and delta iso files for all architectures. And I'm running it on a constantly running ftp server. How can I see the number of seeders? Bye, CzP

Hello, houghi írta:

...

I'm one of those, seeding iso and delta iso files for all architectures. And I'm running it on a constantly running ftp server. How can I see the number of seeders?

That might depend on your torrent client. With Azureus you just look at your screen.

Good idea. After seeding for weeks with 'launchmany' I actually started a bittorrent client, ktorrent. Probably I'm a bit too much server oriented ;-) I installed a second seeder today. I was surprised to find, that these two machines are the only one seeding PPC images. When I tested download speed, my ADSL connection was the bottleneck as it was coming down from both places at about 100k/s.

From this I see, that a torrent seeder network should also be organized next to the ftp mirrors. Preferably by the ftp mirror sites, but if they can't handle this, then by student/staff of nearby universities. Europe and US both have high speed university networks, and spreading OSS is not against AUP :-) Bye, CzP

On 3/17/2006 1:57 AM houghi wrote:

Also people tend not to keep seeding omce they recieved. At this moment there are 6 delta-iso seeders and 11 iso seeders. There are more FTP mirrors then that.

Then lets change that disaster. "People, keep seeding." OJ -- `because it's taking about five hours for the public to get to their gold at the moment, the goblins have thightened security so much. Two days ago Arkie Philpott hat a Probity Probe stuck up his ... well, trust me, this way's easier.? (Bill Weasyley in Harry Potter 6)

jdd wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Nope - the upload is usually set at max 30k, and doesn't go much beyond 50K anyway. Downloading an ISO from the SWITCH mirror, I get a rocksolid 156K/s, with bittorrent I've rarely seen more than 50.

when a new version is released, it's often impossible to join the ftp site... and most mirrors are _not_ uptodate.

Very true, but within 1-2 days, the SWITCH mirror tends to be updated which is good enough for me. I haven't checked, but mirror.ac.uk is also usually very fast. /Per Jessen, Zürich

On 3/17/2006 8:55 AM jdd wrote:

can't a ftp server be a BT seeder?

It should be no problem. The FTP-Server's owner has to start seeding, and I dont know if that is normal. It should be. OJ -- [Unbreakable Vows] `Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five.? [...] `Only time I've ever seen Dad as angry as Mum. Fred reckons his left buttock has never been the same since.? (Harry Potter 6)

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

ftp server admins usually do not have experience with p2p clients, at least not during their job.

the problem may not be here

So let me ask in my full naivity:

Can't "you" seed files which reside on "my" ftp server?

of course not

If not, we simply need a better p2p protocol - which does not design a future neglecting the presence.

nobody can do anything on your server (I hope this for you :-) I think the main problem will not to lauch a BT server on the ftp server, that's easy, the problem is to convince the admin that this will not give him problems, security, bandwith... and this I can't say. so I understand well that such data must be done on a high level (the info must come from a trusted professional source) but if this can make his life simpler, I could work :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:-

Hi,

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, jdd wrote:

...

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

If not, we simply need a better p2p protocol - which does not design a future neglecting the presence.

nobody can do anything on your server (I hope this for you :-)

Of course you can. Just use port 21, 80 or 873, and I will do what you are telling me.

That might be a problem, although not a huge one. Most (all?) bittorrent clients can use different ports to the default. As these ports are already in use, they couldn't be used, so you would need to open up another port to the outside world, and whichever port you chose would have to be open both for TCP and UDP packets.

...

I think the main problem will not to lauch a BT server on the ftp server, that's easy, the problem is to convince the admin that this will not give him problems, security, bandwith... and this I can't say. so I understand well that such data must be done on a high level (the info must come from a trusted professional source)

but if this can make his life simpler, I could work :-)

Just sing me the HOWTO, but in my melody please...

That would be a big problem for me. I've been banned from singing due to being so badly tone-deaf that my wife thinks that when I try, I'm testing out the latest torture methods :|

What to do to help? Maybe I will do it if it is no http, php, perl or python schnickschnack. Offering files through ports. I bet they can't do it this simple. And I bet even further: if they think they can do it this simple, they do not realize that they are wasting the server's memory and CPU.

On the server you admin, the latest delta ISOs are in /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1-beta8/delta-iso/ I'm using Azureus to seed them and they're residing in /media/WD_USB_2/downloads/delta-iso As an example, if you did start up a bittorrent client[0] on the FTP server and pointed the "download" directory for the beta8 delta torrent to the same directory that the FTP server knows as /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1-beta8/ the bittorrent client should pick up that you've already got the files present and seed them. The only problem I could see, if you actually did try this out, would be how to perform testing to ensure it works without having to use the production server. Since opensuse.org has the tracker, your server would appear to be just another seed, except with a rather higher upload rate than most of the other seeds. [0] I've no idea how you'd do it with other command-line clients, nor with Ktorrent, but it's very easily done with Azureus. Of course, the only problem with using Azureus, or Ktorrent, would be the requirement to have a graphical desktop, along with X, to be running on a server where you'd want the all the resources used my the FTP and HTTP servers, not some other applications. Regards, David Bolt -- Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/ AMD1800 1Gb WinXP/SUSE 9.3 | AMD2400 256Mb SuSE 9.0 | A3010 4Mb RISCOS 3.11 AMD2400(32) 768Mb SUSE 10.0 | RPC600 129Mb RISCOS 3.6 | Falcon 14Mb TOS 4.02 AMD2600(64) 512Mb SUSE 10.0 | A4000 4Mb RISCOS 3.11 | STE 4Mb TOS 1.62

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Robert Schiele wrote:-

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 08:59:44AM +0000, David Bolt wrote:

...

[0] I've no idea how you'd do it with other command-line clients, nor with Ktorrent, but it's very easily done with Azureus. Of course, the only problem with using Azureus, or Ktorrent, would be the requirement to have a graphical desktop, along with X, to be running on a server where you'd want the all the resources used my the FTP and HTTP servers, not some other applications.

No need for so much overkill. With the standard client it is just installing the client and typing one command. See http://en.opensuse.org/BitTorrent_and_openSUSE#Running_BitTorrent_Seede r_on_a_Mirror_Server

As I said, I had no idea how it would be done on a mirror server, but it looks like someone had already put some thought into this for just this sort of situation. Regards, David Bolt -- Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 50 Mnodes/s: http://www.distributed.net/ AMD1800 1Gb WinXP/SUSE 9.3 | AMD2400 256Mb SuSE 9.0 | A3010 4Mb RISCOS 3.11 AMD2400(32) 768Mb SUSE 10.0 | RPC600 129Mb RISCOS 3.6 | Falcon 14Mb TOS 4.02 AMD2600(64) 512Mb SUSE 10.0 | A4000 4Mb RISCOS 3.11 | STE 4Mb TOS 1.62

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 10:35:01AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

As we see, almost no server admins are doing this. The best way would be to enhance the p2p clients so that they can "speak" ftp or http and fetch some pieces via ftp or http protocol.

Well, some clients actually can do this. Yes, we see that mirror admins typically don't do this but what exactly is the _reason_ that they don't run a seeder? For example why don't _you_ run one? Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@uni-mannheim.de "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

Hello, Am Samstag, 18. März 2006 11:53 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Robert Schiele wrote: [...]

...

Yes, we see that mirror admins typically don't do this but what exactly is the _reason_ that they don't run a seeder? For example why don't _you_ run one?

Just by conservativism: unknown security and performance risks.

About security: run "btlaunchmany" as a separate user that has no write permissions on your disk - it can't destroy anything then. If unsure about RAM usage etc., use ulimit. About performance: in theory, requests of small parts of a file could cause higher I/O load. In practise, I expect at least the i586 ISOs to reside in your RAM (cache) so this shouldn't be a real problem ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz -- Evolution ist ein echter Outlook-Clone - es kopiert saemtliche Fehler. [Thomas Hertweck in suse-linux]

Robert Schiele wrote:

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 10:35:01AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

As we see, almost no server admins are doing this. The best way would be to enhance the p2p clients so that they can "speak" ftp or http and fetch some pieces via ftp or http protocol.

Well, some clients actually can do this.

Yes, we see that mirror admins typically don't do this but what exactly is the _reason_ that they don't run a seeder? For example why don't _you_ run one?

Robert

Torrent, according to their web site, is answer to overloaded central servers (FTP,HTTP). Even if there will be no security risks, than setting p2p seeder on FTP server is just against basic idea. Plus design details explained in Peter Czanik email. -- Regards, Rajko.

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Torrent, according to their web site, is answer to overloaded central servers (FTP,HTTP). Even if there will be no security risks, than setting p2p seeder on FTP server is just against basic idea.

This sounds a little bit puristic. The spotted "server overload" phaenomenon is a matter with a duration of one day or even longer. Using ftp/http servers automatically ("programmed in") as initial seed could help a lot to get a p2p net running. Once there is enough "food" spreaded, the p2p contacts to ftp/http servers will reduce automatically.

That would be good, and not so puristic :-)

...

Plus design details explained in Peter Czanik email.

Yes; but I'm not sure about the relevance in total. If a server has 1000 "regular" ftp/http sessions anyways, I guess it would not matter to have 200 additional sessions which request very small packets.

Cheers -e

I've seen Christian Boltz mail, and I can agree that in days after release iso files will be probably in RAM anyway, so mentioned I/O would be from RAM to network adapter, which in home computers is not a big deal, but how it is with dedicated server designs? I think that main problem, anyway, is how to convince people to use BitTorrent. Whoever wants to take that task can start with me. If that would be digital art, who cares for few bad bits, but this is computer program and I want to know much more in order to trust the p2p. Good start would be to explain on opensuse wiki, what kind of p2p is BitTorrent, what are the security measures that are used, how much attention is given to client programs to prevent misuse trough security holes, etc. -- Regards, Rajko.

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

So a well-working p2p network really could help a bit.

this is a major point.

Explaining is only one half

well... it's the only one where I can really help :-). I noticed that it is today really difficult to find the Bittorent method on the wiki. I will fix that now on the French wiki. It's harmless and we will see. however french wiki is a very little subset :-( - the other half is to help the p2p

connections to "start better". The clients should - programmed in - use the existing ftp/http servers until the "seeding community" has grown enough.

not yet any answer from bittorrent programmers jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Rajko M wrote:

Azureus is very complex, and I would need time to learn it. I used configuration option for advanced users,

that is probably wrong if you mean to work for beginner. I got the two 5 cd sets (beta 8 and stable) in less than 24h, what I think is a good result and I think the 900000 users quoted by azureus should be openSUSE for I don't see who couls give this number if not the tracker, and the opensuse tracker should not give ithers users (am I right, I don't know) However I needed to lower my upload to 40ko/s to keep a live internet connection (1Mb up) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Hi,

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, Rajko M wrote:

...

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

...

Torrent, according to their web site, is answer to overloaded central servers (FTP,HTTP). Even if there will be no security risks, than setting p2p seeder on FTP server is just against basic idea.

This sounds a little bit puristic. The spotted "server overload" phaenomenon is a matter with a duration of one day or even longer. Using ftp/http servers automatically ("programmed in") as initial seed could help a lot to get a p2p net running. Once there is enough "food" spreaded, the p2p contacts to ftp/http servers will reduce automatically.

That would be good, and not so puristic :-)

...

...

Plus design details explained in Peter Czanik email.

Yes; but I'm not sure about the relevance in total. If a server has 1000 "regular" ftp/http sessions anyways, I guess it would not matter to have 200 additional sessions which request very small packets.

...

I've seen Christian Boltz mail, and I can agree that in days after release iso files will be probably in RAM anyway, so mentioned I/O would be from RAM to network adapter, which in home computers is not a big deal, but how it is with dedicated server designs?

RAM is a limited resource... VERY limited, regarding today's distribution sizes... Each 10.1-beta is about 11 GB, the at the same time newly published factory tree is 33 GB. Together with 10.1-final (35 GB or more), 10.2-alpha1 will appear. Another 11 GB.

And from the mirror server's situation: let Debian, Mandrake, Slackware, FreeBSD release something new at the hot SUSE phase (seen one of them almost each "hot SUSE" time here): Debian ISOs are 60 GB, FreeBSD and Mandrake are similar in sizes of new releases.

A "release moment" of a SUSE distribution (even a beta release) is - since 10.0 - showing at ftp.gwdg.de as an increase of ftp sessions (>200 000 per day, almost doubled, http and rsync also increased), but reduced total output volume (1.5 TB per day usually, falling down to about 1 TB). This is due to the higher filesystem load, because the buffercache is not big enough any longer.

ftp.gwdg.de has 12 GB RAM, and it is NOT ENOUGH anymore since 10.0. It was enough until 9.x (top output was 850 MBit/sec), but 10.x and the new scheme is too much. Today, I seldom reach half of that. Last month was about 40 TB total, so not even the usual 1.5 TB/day.

My theory is: calculate the "focus" of the actual requests and add so much RAM that half of it can be covered. If you can't reach it, you will have some hard days with the need to limit the number of sessions, make single directories inaccessible for some time and so on.

Filesystem I/O is the limiting bottleneck if the network connection is good enough.

The "future strategy" at ftp.gwdg.de is:

1. increase RAM (needs new hardware with more RAM slots + RAM, very expensive) 2. increase disk I/O (needs additional raid arrays and I/O channels, almost as expensive as 1.)

Both steps have to work together, but each needs time (in fact it needs something totally different and is very difficult to achieve, but that results in needing time).

So a well-working p2p network really could help a bit.

But if it is not able to saturate the end user's line, lots of people will end using it. Guess what happens... So we need a good working p2p network or it is worth nothing.

...

I think that main problem, anyway, is how to convince people to use BitTorrent. Whoever wants to take that task can start with me. If that would be digital art, who cares for few bad bits, but this is computer program and I want to know much more in order to trust the p2p.

Good start would be to explain on opensuse wiki, what kind of p2p is BitTorrent, what are the security measures that are used, how much attention is given to client programs to prevent misuse trough security holes, etc.

Explaining is only one half - the other half is to help the p2p connections to "start better". The clients should - programmed in - use the existing ftp/http servers until the "seeding community" has grown enough.

Cheers -e

It is obvious that you gave a lot of thoughts how to improve downloads. I didn't really thought about volume increase with all new source trees that are simultaneously present. I'll see what I can do to convince myself to start using torrents, and give my 2 pfening. I did first experiments with clients today. I have to see why there is no uploads. It is not much, but you can remind me of old saying that tell something about pfenig by pfenig that makes a value. Azureus reported 900,000 users, so there is potential. Yes I know it is not all about opensuse, but the number is interesting. One with connection like mine will need 12 seeders, for full speed download. It can be interesting to try. -- Regards, Rajko.

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 08:59:44AM +0000, David Bolt wrote:

On the server you admin, the latest delta ISOs are in /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1-beta8/delta-iso/

I'm using Azureus to seed them and they're residing in /media/WD_USB_2/downloads/delta-iso

I think the naming of the torrent should be different. Now I always still have the old ISO's in iso and delta-iso. It would be nicer to have them indeed by default in /SL-10.1-beta8/delta-iso/ and not just /delta-iso Nicer, not something terribly important. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 04:05:59PM +0100, Robert Schiele wrote:

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 03:43:17PM +0100, houghi wrote:

...

I think the naming of the torrent should be different. Now I always still have the old ISO's in iso and delta-iso. It would be nicer to have them indeed by default in /SL-10.1-beta8/delta-iso/ and not just /delta-iso

Nicer, not something terribly important.

Not very smart. If you run the official BitTorrent client as an automated seeder of all files he has, he expects the files relative to the torrent file. With your suggestion it would be required to place the torrent files to the toplevel distribution directory to support automated seeders.

OK. At least a specific name then. Now I get my Beta8 ISO's in my Beta6 directory. As I said, not a real issue. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 05:21:00PM +0100, Robert Schiele wrote:

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 04:52:21PM +0100, houghi wrote:

...

OK. At least a specific name then. Now I get my Beta8 ISO's in my Beta6 directory.

Only if you use the same base directory for both versions.

And I do. I just use a download directory for all downloads, be it via FTP, torrent or HTTP or even Usenet. I don't change directories in Azureus for each download. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Johannes Kastl wrote:

Hm, how do you say "schwafeln" in english? ;-)

"to waffle" is a good approximation. /Per Jessen, Zürich

Am Fri, 17. March 2006 23:41 schrieb Johannes Kastl:

On 3/17/2006 8:55 AM jdd wrote:

...

can't a ftp server be a BT seeder?

It should be no problem. The FTP-Server's owner has to start seeding, and I dont know if that is normal. It should be.

What makes me think of jigdo/jigsaw downloads. Debian uses this for its images / mirror sites. Ddue to my experience it's mostly a lot faster than torrent downloads, mostly. But to be honest I have no idea if this would work within a rpm based distribution. But it might be an interesting altenative to torrent images. regards, Thomas

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 01:17:42AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

The center idea of the p2p protocols is to make the "upload" bandwith of the many many users the "download" bandwidth for the others. A great idea, but it is a design flaw to neglect the existing dedicated servers.

Indeed a great idea when you look at it from the point of a users point of view. Or somebody with limited bandwith. Once you have many mirrors with large bandwith, the bit of added extra from users is nice, but practically useless. As I see now there are 12 people seeding the delta-iso. I am sure that 12 people is a laughable number for the FTP sites. I have no idea how to calculate how large the total upload speed is, but mine is 27K, wich is even more laughable compared to the large mirror sites.

So we need a new p2p protocol - intelligent enough to use the traditional download ressources too. Neglecting the presence is a bad start into future.

Unfortunatly that might not be a discussion for openSUSE. I feel having torrents is, at this moment, more a political statement then a technical one. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Hi, On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, jdd wrote:

Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

The center idea of the p2p protocols is to make the "upload" bandwith of the many many users the "download" bandwidth for the others. A great idea, but it is a design flaw to neglect the existing dedicated servers.

I see your point. but I'm not sure this can be done. p2p use to part the files in small chunks and take/send small chunks from/to different locations.

I doubt the ftp protocol can do that. Can I, with ftp, call for, say, just one 512 bytes file part?

Yes, the reget command allows to continue a broken transfer. The client defines the offset.

in fact we may need a better file exchange protocol, md5sum based, collecting what the user needs anywhere it is... but this I can't do :-(((

Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 email.listen@googlemail.com wrote:

Am Sat, 18. March 2006 01:17 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:

...

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 email.listen@googlemail.com wrote:

...

Am Fri, 17. March 2006 23:41 schrieb Johannes Kastl:

...

On 3/17/2006 8:55 AM jdd wrote:

...

...

...

...

can't a ftp server be a BT seeder?

It should be no problem. The FTP-Server's owner has to start seeding, and I dont know if that is normal. It should be.

What makes me think of jigdo/jigsaw downloads. Debian uses this for its images / mirror sites. Ddue to my experience it's mostly a lot faster than torrent downloads, mostly.

But to be honest I have no idea if this would work within a rpm based distribution. But it might be an interesting altenative to torrent images.

The center idea of the p2p protocols is to make the "upload" bandwith of the many many users the "download" bandwidth for the others. A great idea, but it is a design flaw to neglect the existing dedicated servers. So we need a new p2p protocol - intelligent enough to use the traditional download ressources too. Neglecting the presence is a bad start into future.

Hmm, my first idea reading your posting was: I would like to answer, "Neglecting the nonacceptance of torrent seeding is bad also" ;-)

So you would qualify as somewhat short-minded. Be lucky that you only would like.

Torrent lacks a lot especialy for those who use low bandwith connections in several points. Also for those who have a high bandwith connection torrent often sucks.

- Low Bandwith connections are very often paid per volume or per time. So an owner of a low bandwith connection will not be motivied to seed a torrent, for him it will increase the costs dramatically.

- Those who own a high bandwith conections see that downloads offered by torrents are a lot slower than a regular ftp download. So these people also will not be motivied to seed a torrent. For them it's much better to use a regular ftp mirror.

Over all it comes to the point, neither low bandwith users nor high bandwith users are motivated to seed a torrent. And that is exactly what we can see in the moment.

Jigdo internal uses a list of mirrors for the download. - This list may have private mirrors like dyndny sites. So it is quite easy to bring it to some kind of torrent state. - Jigdo spreads the download/tx-bandwith to all/a lot of mirrors. What also is the main intention of a torrent, isn't it.

But the biggest advantage of jigdo is for those who do the work for creating all the iso images. - Jigdo always uses the pure application pakets, *.deb's in Debian It uses the regular paket mirrors, not only mirrors for the iso images. So jigdo is very flexible in the meaning of maintainance. It is very easy to add fixed/improved pakets.

The discussion is about making the p2p clients work better, not about using something totally different instead. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, houghi wrote:

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 10:45:31PM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

The discussion is about making the p2p clients work better, not about using something totally different instead.

I would call that short minded. We talk about the best way to distribute SUSE. Wether this is done with FTP, Torrent, a better client or a complete new method does not matter.

I insist in taking my words as "focussed" as I have set them. I will not participate in a global schwafelei here after we have spotted some very special points.

If something completely different is the best solution for this, then why not? I am just interested in getting the ISOs as fast as possible with the lowest problem during peak periods.

So open a new thread about a new theme. This discussion got very special, and it should not return to a global weather talk. Maybe we should create blafasel@opensuse.org for your "best solution" laienspiel, or you simply try to decipher some postings in suse-beta-e to find your goal. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On 03/18/2006 11:25 PM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006, houghi wrote:

I insist in taking my words as "focussed" as I have set them.

I will not participate in a global schwafelei here after we have spotted some very special points.

...

If something completely different is the best solution for this, then why not? I am just interested in getting the ISOs as fast as possible with the lowest problem during peak periods.

So open a new thread about a new theme. This discussion got very special, and it should not return to a global weather talk. Maybe we should create blafasel@opensuse.org for your "best solution" laienspiel, or you simply try to decipher some postings in suse-beta-e to find your goal.

Just one question, Eberhard: Was your mail intended to sound as slightly "rude"/"aggressive" as I looked to me? Or have I misread it? OJ -- Debian est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam nominari Stable, aliam Testing, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Sid, nostra Unstable appellantur.

On 03/21/2006 12:27 PM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

You are 3 days late with this question.

I know, I just had no time to read the list. Any chance for an answer, though? OJ -- You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, and Germany doesn't want to go to war. (aus alt.jokes)

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 02:56:56PM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Any chance for an answer, though?

No. It was born out of the situation.

No aswer, or that is the answer? houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 11:14:45PM +0100, jdd wrote:

there are many years now, in our countries (europe, US - the first how did was AOL!) that unlimited connxions exists, even low bandwith

In Belgium most connections are NOT unlimited. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

Per Jessen writes:

jdd wrote:

...

when a new version is released, it's often impossible to join the ftp site... and most mirrors are _not_ uptodate.

Beta8 was released yesterday - mirror.switch.ch is already updated, I'm retrieving Beta8 just now. ftp.solnet.ch/mirror is also updated. Ignore ftp.mirror.ac.uk - they seem to be way behind, not even if they're actively mirroring opensuse.

Just use the download.opensuse.org URL and you get automatically redirected to a mirror... We currently have 15 mirrors with all the ISOs available, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Per Jessen writes:

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Just use the download.opensuse.org URL and you get automatically redirected to a mirror...

Personally I always use the SWITCH mirror - the URL sems to have gotten stuck in my mind. :-) Just for fun I tried download.opensuse.org - on the first try I got redirected to http://sunsite.informatik.rwth-aachen.de, on the second it was ftp://fr2.rpmfind.net - both of which gave me 150K+ downstream.

...

We currently have 15 mirrors with all the ISOs available,

Is that all? I'm surprised two of those are in Switzerland - especially the solnet one. (not a very big provider).

18 right now and growing - we only use 30 mirrors for download.suse.org...

Just out of curiosity, do you have some sort of priority-scheme or is it first-come first-serve?

We redirect to a mirror that has the file using some random calculation with prioritization in it so that larger mirrors get more hits... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

"Peter Flodin" writes:

Hmmm... http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1-beta8/iso/SUSE-Linux-10.1-... just directed me to:

http://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1-beta8/iso/distribu...

Not Found

The requested URL /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1-beta8/iso/distribution/SL-10.1-beta8/iso/SUSE-Linux-10.1-beta8-i386-CD1.iso was not found on this server. Apache/2.0.49 (Linux/SuSE) Server at ftp.opensuse.org Port 80

That's a bug somewhere in our config or scripts. Christoph, can you check this, please? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Fri, Mar 17, 2006 at 08:14:30AM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Beta8 was released yesterday - mirror.switch.ch is already updated, I'm retrieving Beta8 just now. ftp.solnet.ch/mirror is also updated. Ignore ftp.mirror.ac.uk - they seem to be way behind, not even if they're actively mirroring opensuse.

I just do a wget -c ...://download.opensuse.org/... CD1... If I get a slow mirror or a mirror that does not have it, I just do a [CTRL][C] and try again. Next I do a CD2 and so on. Not really autmagic, but it works. It makes me able to seed a lot faster. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On 3/13/2006 4:57 PM houghi wrote:

I have posted earlier, but it might have been drowend that a solution might be to have the following: ftp.suse.com (and mirrors) for final products. ftp.opensuse.org (and mirrors) for beta's and factory.

Good idea. OJ -- Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of diseased mind. (Terry Pratchett)

On 03/17/2006 11:59 PM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

Best would be to re-unite the whole project under ftp.suse.com. This splitting is against any nature - just born out of marketing aspects, and the goal is reached.

Hm, on second thought you are right, too.

My interest (and whole thinking) is about file presence and distribution only - www.opensuse.org should stay forever.

*knock on wood*

We need a "non-splitted" mirror hierarchy at least, and less questions (and answering needs) in the mailing lists about "where is what" and "not here, but there".

FULL ACK. Should we start thinking of a good hierarchy where the betas wont confuse the "end user"? OJ -- "...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)." (By Matt Welsh)

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 09:34:52PM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

FULL ACK. Should we start thinking of a good hierarchy where the betas wont confuse the "end user"?

No. Just intuitive names for the directories - just like it is. But one single point as "the" top of "the" download hierarchy.

If that is possible, then by all means, please do. Wether this is going to be ftp.suse.com or ftp.opensuse.org or that they point to each other is uninportant. One main thing should be possible. It should not only hold CD 1-5 but also the future CD6 with the non-OSS stuff on it as well as all SUSE repo's Having ftp.suse.com and ftp.opensuse.org as it is now is confusing. My though behind it was to have clear seperation between factory (and alpha/beta) and SUSE Linux. In afterthought it is better to have that seperation on the FTP hierarchy as it might let users think that openSUSE is only for developers. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sat, Mar 18, 2006 at 09:51:12PM +0100, jdd wrote:

shame azureus is not in SUSE 10.0 (or my sources are not uptodate) because it's available from all the platforms (java program), so the instructions are nearly the same for all systems (native bittorrent is not so flexible, ktorrent still unstable).

http://azureus.sourceforge.net/

so instruction: install java, install azureus, download the torrent and go sleeping :-)

There is the reason it is not included. It uses Java. It would be nice to have it with the extra's. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau