[opensuse] 12.1...., nope!
Hi, I have decided to NOT go with 12.1 even though it would be very fresh (after a few hours), but for learning purposes, the old one (11.4) is more than sufficient..... IF I am thinking wrong, please do let me know..... -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 13:47, Linux Tyro wrote:
Hi,
I have decided to NOT go with 12.1 even though it would be very fresh (after a few hours), but for learning purposes, the old one (11.4) is more than sufficient.....
IF I am thinking wrong, please do let me know.....
Nothing wrong with that. Lots of people here are using version one or two (or even more) releases back. Whatever you decide, there are pros and cons. One release back has more fixes available/applied, and generally is more stable. On the other hand the latest release has a more up-to-date software selection, new features/functionality, possibly better hardware support, and a newer kernel. But... you can set up your repositories to grab the latest version of most apps too... so you're not left behind. You use what works for you. The main risk is if the version you are using is outside the patch/update support window... then you no longer get security patches. 11.4 is still supported, so no probs, just have fun learning.... and when you post a request for help be specific about what version you're working with. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:57 AM, C
Nothing wrong with that. Lots of people here are using version one or two (or even more) releases back.
Whatever you decide, there are pros and cons. One release back has more fixes available/applied, and generally is more stable. On the other hand the latest release has a more up-to-date software selection, new features/functionality, possibly better hardware support, and a newer kernel. But... you can set up your repositories to grab the latest version of most apps too... so you're not left behind.
Oh I see.
You use what works for you. The main risk is if the version you are using is outside the patch/update support window... then you no longer get security patches. 11.4 is still supported, so no probs, just have fun learning....
Ah well, then I remain with what I have....11.4
and when you post a request for help be specific about what version you're working with.
Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's policy, it says, 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest' comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the biggest plus point. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Linux Tyro wrote: Oops forgot to truncate again the email, oops.... :( -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 08:55 AM:
Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of Suse, and it is what I hate.
Its clear you don't understand what google does and its clear you don't understand how to use it. Google indexes everything it can get at. If you mis-configure google-desktop it will add the contents of your machine to its index. There is no semantics. If you google for "god" and some idiot proclaims he is god, the google will index that that as it will index bible pages and other pages claiming others are god and the pages saying those people are not god. God of the universe or god of Linux or god of a single machine. Its all the same to google. It doesn't care. Its just an indexing engine. You seem to be expecting google to do your thinking for you, somehow read your mind for what you really, really want. * Don't expect your first query to return what you want * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many * Don't expect too get answers without making effort * Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia, is 100% correct and authoritative. * Don't be cynical either. You are no more likely to get authoritative answers here than by using google, not least of all since this list gets archived on the 'net and indexed by google! None of this is different from researching in a library, reading books and published papers. I gather schools and universities don't teach that any more, they expect you somehow have this know-how innately, all evidence to the opposite! More specifically: * The issue about "should I go with the new x.1 release as soon as it comes out" has occurred on this any many other lists many times. Go google. Construct more than one query. Don't just look to Suse. Refine your queries. You could have commented that you searched the list archives and found such-and-such a comment about the problems with 10.1, 11.1 and wondered if there was going to be similar problems with 12.1. Or you could have joined one of the other Suse lists concerned with the development of 12.x and monitored the traffic there. * By definition you *are* an "admin of Suse". Live with it! * Google first. Show evidence you have put some effort in rather than using this forum as a crutch. * Take some initiative to find out. That's one of the differences in attitude between Linux people and Windows-weenies. -- "A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/16/2011 9:29 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
* Don't expect your first query to return what you want * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many
* Don't expect too get answers without making effort This is really important to keep in mind. And it's not just for Linux, it's in life in general.
* Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia, is 100% correct and authoritative. * Don't be cynical either.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 09:45 -0500, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On 11/16/2011 9:29 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
* Don't expect your first query to return what you want * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many * Don't expect too get answers without making effort This is really important to keep in mind. And it's not just for Linux, it's in life in general.
+1 Searching the Internet [or "googling" since we are in an unwavering effort to proprietize the Internet] is, IMO, just not a very effective way to find information. You'll find (a) lots of questions with no answers (b) old answers and (c) wrong answers - frequently after wasting a fair amount of time. If you have a question it is *much* better to find an appropriate list / forum, subscribe to that, search it's contents specifically, or post a question. For example - I've been subscribed to the Samba and Samba-Technical lists for years and years. If I have a Samba related problem searching the mail folder where all that gets routed too is much more effective than searching 'the Internet'. I always know the vintage of the information I'm looking at [many websites do a bad job of making that clear] and I have [possibly] and entire thread to look at. Anyway, I plan on going to 12.1 soon [maybe this weekend]. Upgrading versions has almost always worked pretty seamlessly for me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Its clear you don't understand what google does and its clear you don't understand how to use it.
I knew only this much that google is a search engine and it searches your query, what more you expect from a home user? Take a survey of house-wives and all the people and ask 'how google works' and what they simply tell you is that 'it searches'!
Google indexes everything it can get at. If you mis-configure google-desktop it will add the contents of your machine to its index.
There is no semantics. If you google for "god" and some idiot proclaims he is god, the google will index that that as it will index bible pages and other pages claiming others are god and the pages saying those people are not god.
God of the universe or god of Linux or god of a single machine. Its all the same to google.
It doesn't care. Its just an indexing engine.
Oh I came to know this....I didn't know this in fact.....
* Don't expect your first query to return what you want
Okay, I would not expect from now.
* Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page
Ah well.
* Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many
If I would have more time, I would go through each and every page.
* Don't expect too get answers without making effort
For sure, I agree with you in this regard.
* Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia, is 100% correct and authoritative.
Oh I see, it may have errors then.... , it could be.. since it also has an option of 'edit'....
* Don't be cynical either.
Like you, I am not.
You are no more likely to get authoritative answers here than by using google, not least of all since this list gets archived on the 'net and indexed by google!
Ah well.
None of this is different from researching in a library, reading books and published papers. I gather schools and universities don't teach that any more, they expect you somehow have this know-how innately, all evidence to the opposite!
More specifically:
* The issue about "should I go with the new x.1 release as soon as it comes out" has occurred on this any many other lists many times. Go google. Construct more than one query. Don't just look to Suse. Refine your queries.
Okk....
You could have commented that you searched the list archives and found such-and-such a comment about the problems with 10.1, 11.1 and wondered if there was going to be similar problems with 12.1.
Nope!
Or you could have joined one of the other Suse lists concerned with the development of 12.x and monitored the traffic there.
Never!
* By definition you *are* an "admin of Suse". Live with it!
Not possible, since I am not, I accept what I am, it is your advice but thanks for it.
* Google first.
Sure.
Show evidence you have put some effort in rather than using this forum as a crutch.
Ok, that I would do definitely....
* Take some initiative to find out.
I agree and start....
That's one of the differences in attitude between Linux people and Windows-weenies.
May be....but ultimately Linux wins! On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
Sigh.
Ahh.
Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert' along the lines that it will be very hands on.
I don't think you are correct.
You keep throwing around that openSUSE put easy in their policy.
Since it has already put! Am I really wrong? Why I like openSUSE? Because of this reason only... It is of course, more polished, better....
Maybe that should be changed if people are getting the impression that you can install, go, and forget.
Not forgetting man!
Perhaps you should pick up a Linux book in general, as we have recommended, to get a better hand on Linux in general.
That I agree, I should and would.
You said before you were going to leave and go to Redhat/Fedora....who are even less forgiving than the people are sometimes on this list.
Forgiving.....! Amazing! If I say, I also forgive you, then...?
I'm starting to get the impression that you're hiding by the word 'easy' in the policy because you don't want to put the time and energy required into learning a new paradigm other than Windows.
It was a 'yesterday' not 'present'... It was my thinking when I used to run Windows!
I fear that if you don't start to change your way of thinking and get used to a more hands on way of thinking other than the MS world where you double click and go, you will not stick with Linux at all.
I agree that for learning Linux, efforts are needed! Surely true.... On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
On 11/16/2011 9:29 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
This is really important to keep in mind. And it's not just for Linux, it's in life in general.
And it is not for only me, you should also follow it in your life (I don't know if apart from Linux, you follow it in your life or not....) On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:13 PM, jdd wrote:
Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'
plain wrong.
depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get away"
example:
http://wiki.tldp.org/Partition-Mass-Storage-Dummies-Linux-HOWTO
Wrong since it relative to him only and not to everyone...in general...he misinterpreted the same.... On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
+1 Searching the Internet [or "googling" since we are in an unwavering effort to proprietize the Internet] is, IMO, just not a very effective way to find information. You'll find (a) lots of questions with no answers (b) old answers and (c) wrong answers - frequently after wasting a fair amount of time.
If you have a question it is *much* better to find an appropriate list / forum, subscribe to that, search it's contents specifically, or post a question.
I do agree with you.
For example - I've been subscribed to the Samba and Samba-Technical lists for years and years. If I have a Samba related problem searching the mail folder where all that gets routed too is much more effective than searching 'the Internet'. I always know the vintage of the information I'm looking at [many websites do a bad job of making that clear] and I have [possibly] and entire thread to look at.
That's really very nice, I would follow the same principle....
Anyway, I plan on going to 12.1 soon [maybe this weekend]. Upgrading versions has almost always worked pretty seamlessly for me.
You can since you are not new to Linux, you know it after all, ;)- On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
You are still equating "easy" with "I don't have to research my questions before asking them" - and that's incorrect.
No, I would google, I would have to, in fact.
As I suggested before, visit the forums; many of our users are novices and ask "entry-level" questions after doing some research.
Ah well, sure.
But as in life, any time you want to learn a new skill, you have to do some work to acquire it.
100% agreeing with you. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 12:46 PM:
* Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia, is 100% correct and authoritative.
Oh I see, it may have errors then.... , it could be.. since it also has an option of 'edit'....
From Google's point of view its just another page to index. Just like
I have a friend who is famous enough to have a Wikipedia page. It was created by a lady he has never met and who won't enter into a dialogue with him about the page and the information she has entered there. In broad-brush terms three is correct information, such a one might find on the jacket of books he has written and the "bio" handed out at conferences where he has been a speaker, but she had added a great deal of detail with no source that is totally wrong. Much of this can be proven wrong by documented details (e.g. bank records, travel records) and my fiend has re-edited the page correcting this material. However the woman restores the erroneous information. Anyone can edit that page. I could, you could. Wikipedia doesn't care either way. Nothing she has entered is slanderous or libellous. the pages about "flat earth" and the "Flying Spaghetti Monster". As far as google is concerned Pastafarianism is just as valid as Conversion Therapy, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Creationism, Pyramidology, Phrenology, Relativity, The Bermuda Triangle, Sociobiology, The Germ Theory of Disease, The War on Terror, Lysenkoism, Healing by Touch, Global Warming, Ghosts, Quantum Electrodynamics, Transubstantiation, vonDänikenism, Dianetics, Plate Tectonics, The Moon Landing Hoax, and much more. You are expected to exercise judgement and common sense and evaluate their validity to your situation. This doesn't mean google (or wikipedia) is useless, far from it. Everyone and anyone can have their say, and much of that say doesn't necessarily take your situation into account. ] I'm well known in various forums for pointing out ... Context is Everything Context also means thinking about what risks you can take. Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro. You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which distribution of Linux to use. This is addressing the risk/benefit of dealing with alternatives. Some of us have spare machines that we can afford to "loose", to wipe and try alternatives. Oh, and the time. To say nothing for the experience in determining why various problems have arisen (even if we have to google for them or search the archives for past mention since some problems are of a "Class" or recur in detail). All this is factored into "risk". And on the befit side, if you are still learning, if you can't yet differentiate between a bug and a problem in your understanding or a shortcoming in your experience, where does the benefit to you of something like 12.1 really lie? You need to make the effort to evaluate not just what you find via google and its relevance to you, but also the go/no-go here. Personally, I have a policy of never using the first release of any software product. In fact "don't use version 1" is an aphorism in the industry. -- Never criticise somebody until you have walked a mile in their shoes. That way, they're a mile away, and you have their shoes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's policy, it says, 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest' comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the biggest plus point. Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert' along the lines
On 11/16/2011 8:55 AM, Linux Tyro wrote: that it will be very hands on. You keep throwing around that openSUSE put easy in their policy. Maybe that should be changed if people are getting the impression that you can install, go, and forget. Perhaps you should pick up a Linux book in general, as we have recommended, to get a better hand on Linux in general. You said before you were going to leave and go to Redhat/Fedora....who are even less forgiving than the people are sometimes on this list. I'm starting to get the impression that you're hiding by the word 'easy' in the policy because you don't want to put the time and energy required into learning a new paradigm other than Windows. I fear that if you don't start to change your way of thinking and get used to a more hands on way of thinking other than the MS world where you double click and go, you will not stick with Linux at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 16/11/2011 15:35, Michael S. Dunsavage a écrit :
Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'
plain wrong. depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get away" example: http://wiki.tldp.org/Partition-Mass-Storage-Dummies-Linux-HOWTO jdd (LDP coordinator) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/16/2011 11:43 AM, jdd wrote:
Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'
plain wrong.
depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get away"
I do like how you complete truncated the "along the lines that it will be very hands on." from my comment. How many howtos or instructions tell you to "click on properties and then apply and then MAGIC! it's setup". No they tell you where to change a file and setting. A much more hands on approach from the MS world where you clicky clicky options and go on your merry way, maybe. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
A much more hands on approach from the MS world where you clicky clicky options and go on your merry way, maybe.
I accept the Linux is 100% better than MS, agreeing. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I have a friend who is famous enough to have a Wikipedia page. It was created by a lady he has never met and who won't enter into a dialogue with him about the page and the information she has entered there. In broad-brush terms three is correct information, such a one might find on the jacket of books he has written and the "bio" handed out at conferences where he has been a speaker, but she had added a great deal of detail with no source that is totally wrong. Much of this can be proven wrong by documented details (e.g. bank records, travel records) and my fiend has re-edited the page correcting this material. However the woman restores the erroneous information.
Anyone can edit that page. I could, you could. Wikipedia doesn't care either way. Nothing she has entered is slanderous or libellous.
Confirmed that wikipedia MAY have errors.
From Google's point of view its just another page to index. Just like the pages about "flat earth" and the "Flying Spaghetti Monster". As far as google is concerned Pastafarianism is just as valid as Conversion Therapy, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Creationism, Pyramidology, Phrenology, Relativity, The Bermuda Triangle, Sociobiology, The Germ Theory of Disease, The War on Terror, Lysenkoism, Healing by Touch, Global Warming, Ghosts, Quantum Electrodynamics, Transubstantiation, vonDänikenism, Dianetics, Plate Tectonics, The Moon Landing Hoax, and much more.
Okk.
You are expected to exercise judgement and common sense and evaluate their validity to your situation.
This doesn't mean google (or wikipedia) is useless, far from it. Everyone and anyone can have their say, and much of that say doesn't necessarily take your situation into account. ]
I'm well known in various forums for pointing out ...
Context is Everything
Yeah, correct.
Context also means thinking about what risks you can take.
Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro. You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which distribution of Linux to use.
Yeah.
This is addressing the risk/benefit of dealing with alternatives.
Oh I see. It means that entire mailing lists run on risk/benefit of dealing...
Some of us have spare machines that we can afford to "loose", to wipe and try alternatives. Oh, and the time. To say nothing for the experience in determining why various problems have arisen (even if we have to google for them or search the archives for past mention since some problems are of a "Class" or recur in detail). All this is factored into "risk".
In fact, even your and mine life is factored into "risk". If you don't ask the questions, what your 'tongue' would do...?
And on the befit side, if you are still learning,
Any person in his entire life cannot learn all the things, so not only I, I guess everybody is learning. However, if you consider only Linux (as a part of life), yes I am starting to learn. So yes I am STILL learning.
if you can't yet differentiate between a bug and a problem in your understanding or a shortcoming in your experience,
I can differentiate.
where does the benefit to you of something like 12.1 really lie?
The benefit starts if I were knowing Linux! And after two years, yes I would install the latest version.
You need to make the effort to evaluate not just what you find via google and its relevance to you, but also the go/no-go here.
Of course, that's life's philosophy.
Personally, I have a policy of never using the first release of any software product. In fact "don't use version 1" is an aphorism in the industry.
Oh I see but you can use if you are sure that you have command over Linux, the most worse case is that everything is to be reinstalled! However, its a personal choice.....But yes, now I would not go with it, I am sure. On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:56 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 09:35 AM:
Tyro, why bother reading/asking/searching if you're not going to do something?
I said 'when I get time, I would'. So I have to bother about it, in fact computers are used in all the ways of life, you can see that... So yes, learning (it could be very slow, though), but is a part of daily activities or at times, weekly activities!
Well, people who have been brainwashed by Windows (or even *shock* horror* OSX) get to be like that.
It is your illusion. Why are you living? Since you (or anyone) want to make money and live happily, isn't it? And don't forget that it was Windows who made the money and ruled the world! Yes, it was a time, but it was a fact! So count on earth, how many people still uses Windows? I guess (not sure, since now time has changed) it would be more than Linux users (or a time was there, when it was there....!). Still knowing that Windows is not free.....! Amazing....!
Its sort of like having driven a soft-cushioned American car all your life, with power-everything, soft suspension, automatic suspension, six cylinder five litre engine, cruise control, wide long straight roads .... and then being landed with a 2CV in the streets of Paris[1]. Or a Porche. Or perhaps that great competitor to the 2CV, the Renault 5 with the 850cc engine and which could corner in its own length. All of a sudden you are in control - and you have to be in control and know the machine and how to make it perform.
[1] Or London or ...
Good example.
I'll send you one of mine
When? -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 04:51 PM:
Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro. You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which distribution of Linux to use. Yeah.
This is addressing the risk/benefit of dealing with alternatives. Oh I see. It means that entire mailing lists run on risk/benefit of dealing...
No. Read what I said. The *individuals* on this list have a different risk tolerance from you. And from each other. We work and live in different contexts. Example: You were concerned about getting things wrong in partitioning your disk for Linux. For you there was a risk involved that your decision might be wrong. That was clear from the questions you were asking. For me there is no risk; I use LVM. If I make one partition to large and another too small I can change them on the running system without a reboot and without mounting. For me there is no risk that my decision might be wrong. LVM also simplifies backup; I can snapshot a live partition and copy the partition to a CD or DVD, all without 'freezing' or going to single user mode. There goes another risk. Its about individuals and how they each perceive and ameliorate risk. Lists don't run on risk/benefit. They might run _for_ the benefit, but its still "of individuals". So if someone tells you that they will or won't move to 12.1 soon or later, that's for their reasons and how they perceive the risks and benefits of 12.1. You should think for yourself, and if they don't give reasons, ask for the reasons. They may or may not apply to your context and circumstances. -- Production is not the application of tools to materials, but logic to work. --Peter F. Drucker -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
You were concerned about getting things wrong in partitioning your disk for Linux.
Yes, since it is the first time installation, that's why.
For me there is no risk;
Because you have experience of more than 30 years! Now, how can risk be? But I am sure, when you might have installed for the first time (years back, a history), you must have made the mistake(s)...., however, a guess....
So if someone tells you that they will or won't move to 12.1 soon or later, that's for their reasons and how they perceive the risks and benefits of 12.1.
Yeah.... -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/17/2011 12:58 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
You were concerned about getting things wrong in partitioning your disk for Linux.
Yes, since it is the first time installation, that's why.
For me there is no risk;
Because you have experience of more than 30 years! Now, how can risk be? But I am sure, when you might have installed for the first time (years back, a history), you must have made the mistake(s)...., however, a guess....
So if someone tells you that they will or won't move to 12.1 soon or later, that's for their reasons and how they perceive the risks and benefits of 12.1.
Yeah....
Stop trying to avoid a failure when trying something new. Just do it, and let it fail. That is how learning and progress is accomplished. As a fellow long time Unix consultant says "Learn by Destroying" -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Guys, is this thread spinning out of control? I appreciate the need for judicious LARTing [*] to keep the signal to noise ratio on the list within acceptable limits and nudge Gentle Newbies onto an auspicious path to joining the Linux Elite, but this thread seems to have careered off-topic and is rapidly heading towards a general shouting match for people to indulge their list-Tourettes on. How about letting the thread die before it gallops into the quagmires of KDE vs GNOME, SUSE vs Community, and other forms of dick-swinging-by-proxy and chest-beating? Will [*] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LART -- Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 01:39 PM:
On 11/16/2011 11:43 AM, jdd wrote:
Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'
plain wrong.
depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get away"
I do like how you complete truncated the "along the lines that it will be very hands on." from my comment. How many howtos or instructions tell you to "click on properties and then apply and then MAGIC! it's setup".
No they tell you where to change a file and setting. A much more hands on approach from the MS world where you clicky clicky options and go on your merry way, maybe.
Indeed. And what underlies *NIX are patterns. Once you learn the patterns you can apply them over and over. You can apply them in Suse, Redhat ... AIX ... Solaris. Even, if you can find it, DG/UX (which, when I last used it, was *very* SysV/4) It's not just that Windows is clicky-clicky and you have no idea what's going on, its that the rote learning means its different for each release ... How else do you think training companies that soaked you for W/2000 server could soak you again for W/2003 and then W/2008? You don't see - well I don't see - training companies saying what you learnt about about openSuse 10.x being no use when you come to administer 11.x or 12.x. OK, so maybe head-hunters and and HR people might think "Oh, your experience is with Suse/Nell, you won't have a clue how to use Redhat." Or substitute Solaris or AIX in there. And yes I've had that nonsense from recruiters who didn't know any better. http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/00000/600... -- The same applies for other kinds of long-lasting low-level pain. [...] The body's response to being jabbed, pierced, and cut is to produce endorphins. [...] So here's my programme for breaking that cycle of dependency on Windows: get left arm tattooed with dragon motif, buy a crate of Jamaican Hot! Pepper Sauce, get nipples pierced. With any luck that will produce enough endorphins to make Windows completely redundant, and I can then upgrade to Linux and get on with things. -- Pieter Hintjens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 09:35 AM:
Sigh.
Indeed!
Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'
For some suitable value of expertise ..
along the lines that it will be very hands on.
There is that. Tyro, why bother reading/asking/searching if you're not going to do something?
You keep throwing around that openSUSE put easy in their policy. Maybe that should be changed if people are getting the impression that you can install, go, and forget.
Well, people who have been brainwashed by Windows (or even *shock* horror* OSX) get to be like that. Its sort of like having driven a soft-cushioned American car all your life, with power-everything, soft suspension, automatic suspension, six cylinder five litre engine, cruise control, wide long straight roads .... and then being landed with a 2CV in the streets of Paris[1]. Or a Porche. Or perhaps that great competitor to the 2CV, the Renault 5 with the 850cc engine and which could corner in its own length. All of a sudden you are in control - and you have to be in control and know the machine and how to make it perform. [1] Or London or ...
Perhaps you should pick up a Linux book in general, as we have recommended,
*MANY* TIMES* *!* *!* *!*
to get a better hand on Linux in general.
I'll send you one of mine .... C.O.D. < I'm starting to get the impression that
you're hiding by the word 'easy' in the policy because you don't want to put the time and energy required into learning a new paradigm other than Windows.
+1
I fear that if you don't start to change your way of thinking and get used to a more hands on way of thinking other than the MS world where you double click and go, you will not stick with Linux at all.
+1 -- The same applies for other kinds of long-lasting low-level pain. [...] The body's response to being jabbed, pierced, and cut is to produce endorphins. [...] So here's my programme for breaking that cycle of dependency on Windows: get left arm tattooed with dragon motif, buy a crate of Jamaican Hot! Pepper Sauce, get nipples pierced. With any luck that will produce enough endorphins to make Windows completely redundant, and I can then upgrade to Linux and get on with things. -- Pieter Hintjens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Let me just say... I - WAS - an MS bigot for many years - and then - I learned all the CRAP, INTRUSION, GAME PLAYING, you can keep going .... about MS and WINDOWS. I have spent much time as needed to dump Windoze and learn Linux (from scratch and on my own - no books) - AND - learned to deal with its little - although, sometimes not so little - quirks - AND - HAVE NEVER LOOKED BACK. I - ONLY - run Windoze under VB when I have to - Tax software, my piano tuning software, and a couple of other things. This is a track record - hidden in my piano business pages - since I started in 1993 http://www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com/other/microsoft.html I tell people that - if this info is not enough to jump from MS's ship - then they are NUTS and just STUPID. I've trained my son and wife on openSUSE 11.4. Also, because of his "knack" of getting viruses, I conned my brother-in-law to go to openSUSE 11.1 ? ------------------------- Speaking of which ..... In case you didn't know, antivirus software is a "reactionary" software package. They ONLY handle KNOWN viruses, worms, etc. Meaning that if someone writes a NEW virus and it infects your computers, you can't blame it on the antivirus software (because they don't know about it yet). That virus that just hit you (and others) has to be reported and/or discovered by the antivirus software companies. THEN they have to write a "trap" for that virus, THEN roll it out to you as an update. SO bottom line, antivirus software is as good as the ONLY known viruses - thus being forever in "responsive" or "reactive" mode. Furthermore, the ONLY way to get out of this "reactionary" or "catch 22" mode is to get off Windows. So just deal with it and move on ..... My 2cents -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Duaine Hechler
Meaning that if someone writes a NEW virus and it infects your computers, you can't blame it on the antivirus software (because they don't know about it yet).
Duaine, You probably haven't kept up with the world of virus in MS. People don't write most viruses, computers create them off of a assembly line. Indeed, there are now virus factories on the web. If you want to create your own unique virus, you just log into a virus factory site and tell it what you want. It gives you a nice shiny new virus that no one has ever seen before. I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day! Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/16/2011 04:17 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Duaine Hechler
wrote: Meaning that if someone writes a NEW virus and it infects your computers, you can't blame it on the antivirus software (because they don't know about it yet).
Duaine,
You probably haven't kept up with the world of virus in MS. People don't write most viruses, computers create them off of a assembly line.
Indeed, there are now virus factories on the web. If you want to create your own unique virus, you just log into a virus factory site and tell it what you want. It gives you a nice shiny new virus that no one has ever seen before.
I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day!
Greg Yes, thank you Greg. I did not know that.
Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day!
Amazing! I guess it is a correct assumption. -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/17/2011 12:51 AM:
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day!
Amazing! I guess it is a correct assumption.
No guesswork involved; Its not an assumption, its an observation. That's an important difference. -- Though force can protect in emergency, only justice, fairness, consideration and co-operation can finally lead men to the dawn of eternal peace. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/17/2011 12:51 AM:
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day! Amazing! I guess it is a correct assumption. No guesswork involved; Its not an assumption, its an observation.
That's an important difference.
Take a break - found this last night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=XEZtw1yt8Kc We have to look at 12.1 now; let Tyro work it out by himself like most of us did .... fighting scant insight and self-inflicted ideology is futile. :-) Dreiel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Well, guys I guess we should close and cut this thread there before it goes more longer, as points out Will Stephenson and I agree. However, the knowledgeable discussion may lead in future to some topics not related with openSUSE. Why we are discussing the same matter again and again? What's the purpose....? I already told that I would have to google and learn somethings myself..... ***This is openSUSE list*** Let us close the doors of this here itself. And yes to know more, we have all have to learn, the difference is that, I would have to start the journey while many have started, yes but everyone is learning. If the developers too were not learning, how could have they produced 12.1 (more bug free than 11.4). So yes, LEARNING IS A PART OF LIFE AND IS CEASELESS...... Let us close this thread, I hope they (Anton, etc..) would not go beyond the general topics..... Ah, I have to go outside for some work for one week, and I would be back after some time........Let's see the improvements later......possibly with new talks and discussions...... ALL THE BEST...... Let's go................ THANKS> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* *11/16/11: Did a Google search on the keywords 'Microsoft' and 'lawsuit' or 'lawsuits' and got 22,850,000 hits. WOW! (12/18/09: was 7,420,000 hits) (06/02/09: was 2,767,000 hits)* -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:33 AM, Duaine Hechler wrote:
Let me just say... I - WAS - an MS bigot for many years - and then - I learned all the CRAP, INTRUSION, GAME PLAYING, you can keep going .... about MS and WINDOWS.
I have spent much time as needed to dump Windoze and learn Linux (from scratch and on my own - no books) - AND - learned to deal with its little - although, sometimes not so little - quirks - AND - HAVE NEVER LOOKED BACK.
I - ONLY - run Windoze under VB when I have to - Tax software, my piano tuning software, and a couple of other things.
This is a track record - hidden in my piano business pages - since I started in 1993
http://www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com/other/microsoft.html
I tell people that - if this info is not enough to jump from MS's ship - then they are NUTS and just STUPID.
I've trained my son and wife on openSUSE 11.4. Also, because of his "knack" of getting viruses, I conned my brother-in-law to go to openSUSE 11.1 ?
-------------------------
Speaking of which .....
In case you didn't know, antivirus software is a "reactionary" software package.
They ONLY handle KNOWN viruses, worms, etc.
Meaning that if someone writes a NEW virus and it infects your computers, you can't blame it on the antivirus software (because they don't know about it yet).
That virus that just hit you (and others) has to be reported and/or discovered by the antivirus software companies. THEN they have to write a "trap" for that virus, THEN roll it out to you as an update.
SO bottom line, antivirus software is as good as the ONLY known viruses - thus being forever in "responsive" or "reactive" mode.
Furthermore, the ONLY way to get out of this "reactionary" or "catch 22" mode is to get off Windows.
So just deal with it and move on .....
My 2cents
+1 -- THX -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:55:36 -0600, Linux Tyro wrote:
Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's policy, it says, 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest' comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the biggest plus point.
You are still equating "easy" with "I don't have to research my questions before asking them" - and that's incorrect. As I suggested before, visit the forums; many of our users are novices and ask "entry-level" questions after doing some research. But as in life, any time you want to learn a new skill, you have to do some work to acquire it. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Adam Tauno Williams
-
Anton Aylward
-
Brian K. White
-
C
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Duaine Hechler
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Greg Freemyer
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jdd
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Jim Henderson
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Linux Tyro
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LLLActive@GMX.Net
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Michael S. Dunsavage
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Will Stephenson