On Saturday 17 May 2003 16:48, Sven Burmeister wrote:

On Sat, 17 May 2003 15:25:49 +0200, fsanta wrote:

...

I burned this file to CD using k3b but it's not bootable. According to SuSE it should be. Can anyone help? Thanks, Steve.

I guess you burned the file to the CD and not the ISO. You got to look for a menu-entry in k3b that says Burn ISO to CD (I think it's in Tools), then it does not burn the ISO file but the files in the ISO image on the CD.

Hi. Thanks. It's now bootable. Steve

On Sat, 2003-05-17 at 11:43, fsanta wrote:

On Saturday 17 May 2003 16:48, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

To get more anwers in this mailinglist I would put your real name when sending email, it's a matter of politness I guess. ;)

I didn't wish to be impolite. Are there any guidelines on this list as to what one can call oneself? I used my internet nic without thinking when I signed up in kmail. My real name is Steve Sheriff and I live in Alicante. Is that OK?

dont let other control what you do. real name put what ever you want. those who are going to help will help regardless of what you put on name

http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html

Have a look at 3.

Yep. That's what it says. I'm wrong. I am compelled by german law to put my real name. But I'm not going to. So there. Please ask Mr. Mahmood to throw me off this list at once. Do I win 10 Euros? End of thread. *Please!*

...

Yep. That's what it says. I'm wrong. I am compelled by german law to put my real name. But I'm not going to. So there. Please ask Mr. Mahmood to throw me off this list at once. Do I win 10 Euros?

^^^^^^ The plural is Euro, keep learning kid! :D

Thanks. That's great news. I'd no idea. In Spain it seems to be Euros. In English I don't know. Maybe I should join the .es list. Now I must win 10 Euros. Surely. Even if I live in new york. BTW If you send me a personal message, then why cc it to the list? That way I have to see it twice. Bad netiquette. Surely.

On Sat, 17 May 2003 11:19:29 -0700 Ben Rosenberg wrote:

until you all get Loonies and Toonies..

Hey Ben, we have Loonies and Toonies here. I take offence ;-). Charles -- "Even more amazing was the realization that God has Internet access. I wonder if He has a full newsfeed?" (By Matt Welsh)

Ben Rosenberg wrote:

* fsanta (fsanta@arrakis.es) [030517 11:06]: ->> > Yep. That's what it says. I'm wrong. I am compelled by german law to put ->> > my real name. But I'm not going to. So there. Please ask Mr. Mahmood to ->> > throw me off this list at once. Do I win 10 Euros? ->> ->> ^^^^^^ ->> The plural is Euro, keep learning kid! :D ->> -> ->Thanks. That's great news. I'd no idea. In Spain it seems to be Euros. In ->English I don't know. Maybe I should join the .es list. Now I must win 10 ->Euros. Surely. Even if I live in new york. -> ->BTW If you send me a personal message, then why cc it to the list? That way I ->have to see it twice. Bad netiquette. Surely.

Look..until you all get Loonies and Toonies..who cares how someone pronouces things. Seems to me that this is an International list and what someone from Spain might say in English maybe different then a German. :) And that could differ greatly from an English speaker from New Orleans. Lets drop this silly thing. Ya'll have WAY to much time on your hands and minds. *laugh*

You're right, so forget about the start. However just out of curiousity, I thought that Euro is supposed to be the same word, no matter what (European) language, that's why the renamed it. It was Ecu before, if I am not mistaken. And one thing is certain, hardly anybody speaks correctly, some more at least write correctly, in the end it does not really matter. Maybe somebody got that my comment wasn't actually meant to teach but just to counter and finish. Didn't work out, I guess. And don't get me started on the Spanish and their role in the EU... ;) Sven PS: Is it Dollar, or Dollars? :D -- << s.burmeister@lancaster.ac.uk * sven.burmeister@gmx.de >> :: Have a look at Germany :: http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/burmeist/

Sven Burmeister wrote:

You're right, so forget about the start. However just out of curiousity, I thought that Euro is supposed to be the same word, no matter what (European) language, that's why the renamed it. It was Ecu before, if I am not mistaken. And one thing is certain, hardly anybody speaks correctly, some more at least write correctly, in the end it does not really matter. Maybe somebody got that my comment wasn't actually meant to teach but just to counter and finish. Didn't work out, I guess. And don't get me started on the Spanish and their role in the EU... ;)

Sven

PS: Is it Dollar, or Dollars? :D

I found KDE language support for NL and GB don't support € on AltGr+E, whereas DK and ES do. GB doesn't have euro or euros, NL has euro or euro's, DK doesn't and ES does. Why the inconsistency? Incidentally, euro notes and coins don't use the symbol € and US notes don't use the symbol $, English notes and some Scottish notes use the symbol £ but UK coins, which are Welsh, don't. ;-) -- JDL Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 17 May 2003 13:19, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

Look..until you all get Loonies and Toonies..who cares how someone pronouces things. Seems to me that this is an International list and what someone from Spain might say in English maybe different then a German. :) And that could differ greatly from an English speaker from New Orleans. Lets drop this silly thing. Ya'll have WAY to much time on your hands and minds. *laugh*

-- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org

Allright Ben...I'll bite...what's 'Loonies and Toonies', heh? John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xpI1H5oDXyLKXKQRAlEXAKCmHxW0Xl0YTdiDorQH2/mzfTZ84QCdG1Vr 49l2dByiIKsoB2DwPNs4W58= =Hk4J -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Sun, May 18, 2003 at 01:59:55AM -0700, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

* John (yonaton@tds.net) [030517 12:47]: -> -> Allright Ben...I'll bite...what's 'Loonies and Toonies', heh?

They are Canadian 1 and 2 dollar coins. They got rid of paper 1's in I believe 1996. I actually think this is pretty cool. It's amazing how little change buys you in the U.S. and people look at you like your nuts when you spend it.

Indeed ;)

I was in that habit when I first started visiting Canada some years ago...and by the 3rd day there I would have this huge amount of change. First time it happened I emptied out my jacket and $80 in change..most of which were 1's and 2's. It was a strange thing to get use to.

On my first trip to the states I was struck by the opposite phenomenon. In Denmark it's coins up to and including 20 kroner, which (almost) buys you a 1.5 liter of soda. So there I was, in the states, going "Hey man... I just keep forking over *bills* all the time? What is the *matter* with this place?" ;D It seemed utterly ridiculous to me, that I should be paying for a coke in bills... I even tried to explain to this guy I was staying with, the advantage of being able to tell the value of each coin, just by sticking your hand in the pocket. And that said coins will, in fact, buy you *anything*. Steve was unimpressed: "Yeah but if you look at the corner of each bill, there's the value printed right there" So I went; "Sure, but you still have to *look* at the money, you can't *feel* the value." Steve; "Of *course* you can't *feel* the value! It's a *bill*!" Me; "So what if you're in a bar, and it's darkish and you're getting drunk?" Steve; "You just find a spot with enough light, that you can see" Me, "But it's so easy to just pick the coins you need from the pocket, and pay with that. So you don't have to *look* at the money..." Steve (thinking in nickels and dimes); "Dude, you don't pay with *coins* in a bar!" ...I gave up. ;) He was impressed that I knew how to operate the coffemachine, though... not to mention when I started to dismantle the steering column on this car, to fix the ignition key mechanism... "Dude, you're crazy!" Cheers, Jon Clausen -- If we can't be free, at least we can be cheap!

Mike writes:

I've also gotten used to the different sizes of the bills. American dollars drive me nuts. I have to look to see what denomination they are. The rest of the world uses color, and size, but Oh, no, not the Americans.

Which must make it difficult (or impossible) for blind people to distinguish the denomination of a bill. I am surprised that the disability discrimination laws don't force a change so that different denomination bills have different sizes or feel.

It seemed utterly ridiculous to me, that I should be paying for a coke in bills...

Many people here in the US have tried to support the new "Golden Dollar" that the US Mint came up with a few years ago. Newer soda machines and "token" machines (used primarily for purchasing train rides) accept and/or dispense change using the Golden Dollar. Some even still use the older, extremely unpopular "SBA" (Susan B. Anthony) dollar. However, most people hate getting these coins. They use them up quickly and merchants end up depositing these into their bank instead of returning them as change to other customers. It is impossible to purchase rolls of the dollar coins in most US banks. The banks explain that they don't stock the coin since they see just about zero demand. It's unfortunate. Personally, I love the idea. With a few $1 coins (and I carry a few 50 cent pieces occasionally as well) I'm less likely to break a larger bill for small purchases. -- John LeMay KC2KTH Senior Enterprise Consultant NJMC | http://www.njmc.com | Phone 732-557-4848 Specializing in Microsoft and Unix based solutions

On Saturday 17 May 2003 18:22, Sven Burmeister wrote:

fsanta wrote:

...

...

http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html

Have a look at 3.

Yep. That's what it says. I'm wrong. I am compelled by german law to put my real name. But I'm not going to. So there. Please ask Mr. Mahmood to throw me off this list at once. Do I win 10 Euros?

^^^^^^ The plural is Euro, keep learning kid! :D

As it happens, the general plural for English ALWAYS has an -s suffix. If the Eurobank want to change that they'll have a hard time. In money, either is acceptable so you'll just have to cope with variant usage Dylan -- Sweet moderation Heart of this nation Desert us not We are between the wars - Billy Bragg

John wrote:

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On Saturday 17 May 2003 12:22, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

fsanta wrote:

...

...

http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html

Have a look at 3.

Yep. That's what it says. I'm wrong. I am compelled by german law to put my real name. But I'm not going to. So there. Please ask Mr. Mahmood to throw me off this list at once. Do I win 10 Euros?

^^^^^^ The plural is Euro, keep learning kid! :D

...

End of thread. *Please!*

-- << s.burmeister@lancaster.ac.uk * sven.burmeister@gmx.de >>

:: Have a look at Germany :: http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/burmeist/

Hey Sven, how many times have you heard you may be a little too anal retentive? Also, how do you figure 'A' Euro is singular, and 'Some' Euro is plural? If I said "I have some euro in my pocket", in english, that means I have one european dolar, thus 'Euros' *is* plural, since it's describing the use of two words together in *one* word, but this applies to the english language only AFAICT.

I was going to take you serious, but the fact that you think a euro is nothing but a european dollar, shows your horizon, don't take it personal, this is now really going off topic. Concerning your plural/singular rule, what about the word information? Yeah, I see plural always has a -s to it! ;) This goes to Dylan too. Think about it! Sven

John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)

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-- << s.burmeister@lancaster.ac.uk * sven.burmeister@gmx.de >> :: Have a look at Germany :: http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/burmeist/

On Saturday 17 May 2003 20:53, Sven Burmeister wrote:

I was going to take you serious, but the fact that you think a euro is nothing but a european dollar, shows your horizon, don't take it personal, this is now really going off topic. Concerning your plural/singular rule, what about the word information? Yeah, I see plural always has a -s to it! ;) This goes to Dylan too. Think about it!

Yes, information is an invariant mass noun, like data... you cannot sat "an information" in the way you can "a Euro", so your example is void. Dylan -- Sweet moderation Heart of this nation Desert us not We are between the wars - Billy Bragg

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 17 May 2003 22:06, Dylan wrote:

...

On Saturday 17 May 2003 20:53, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

I was going to take you serious, but the fact that you think a euro is nothing but a european dollar, shows your horizon, don't take it personal, this is now really going off topic. Concerning your plural/singular rule, what about the word information? Yeah, I see plural always has a -s to it! ;) This goes to Dylan too. Think about it!

Yes, information is an invariant mass noun, like data... you cannot sat "an information" in the way you can "a Euro", so your example is void.

How does this suddenly arouse so much feeling? The usage of English on this list is enough to send the entire faculty of English language at Oxford to a rest home. Why is the plural form of an invented word so important?

And Sven is right by the way, the official form is "one euro, many euro", but the rules of English have nothing to do with it. It is a decree.

Hi Anders, I know that and never stated differently, I was just refering to the post that claimed that in English there would always be a -s for plural. Let's forget about it, some know, some don't, that's it. Sven -- << s.burmeister@lancaster.ac.uk * sven.burmeister@gmx.de >> :: Have a look at Germany :: http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/burmeist/

On Saturday 17 May 2003 21:59, Dylan wrote:

I have a sheep in my field I have some sheep in my field

Be careful of the clever ones, they're the most dangerous

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 17 May 2003 14:59, Dylan wrote:

...

Hey Sven, how many times have you heard you may be a little too anal retentive? Also, how do you figure 'A' Euro is singular, and 'Some' Euro is plural? If I said "I have some euro in my pocket", in english, that means I have one european dolar, thus 'Euros' *is* plural, since it's describing the use of two words together in *one* word, but this applies to the english language only AFAICT.

Er, -

I have a sheep in my field I have some sheep in my field

A lot will depend on the word *and* how it's used in a sentence (in english). Also, sheep is just that...sheep...that's for *that* word, I'm talking about the word 'euro' and how it's used and how/when it's pluralized. Heck, you can bring up all kinds of 'other' words (goose comes to mind), but each 'word' has its own way of being pluralized. John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+xuXJH5oDXyLKXKQRAgTDAJ0SJhsePrY3Vq+12rfAmETEYB1glQCfZTmU F4h++mx6VShpr7HqYzl56Tc= =+vl7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

People please, end this! As already pointed out by others Euro is not a "normal" word but an invented name. It is not an English word, it is no language's word, it is a made up, invented, always staying the same no matter in what language word. Thus those who invented it made up the rules for it too. These rules have nothing to do with the common rules in the language the word Euro is used in. The ruleis that no matter if used as singular or plural word, it stays Euro. Grammar does not apply in any language to the word Euro. If people use Euros as plural, they will be understood and it might be ok for colloquial, however it is formally not correct and those who know better should not use it in that way. I guess after this thread all of you know better. I am also aware that a lot do not care, fair enough, but the rules for that word are not made up by me, you or anyone but the inventors of that word, i.e. there is no use of any kind of dicussion, as it is a decree without any need for reasoning to it. Concluding, those who care about a correct use of a language care and learn, as everybody does, because nobody is perfect. Those who do not care about the correct use of a language or simply cannot accept any rules because they feel threatened in their personal freedom or whatsoever, just keep on using Euros, knowing better.

To those who think that a word should not be given any static rules that apply to it, just think of all the exeptions that are made in any language to general grammar. See the word Euro as another exception, as the word information is, or news as examples for the English language. Who would argue that it is correct to say informations? It's the same as with Euro, there is no sense in argueing, it is a rule just for that word and that's all there is to it.

Sven

I asked for an end to this thread some messages ago. You decided to continue it. This list is for users of windows xp. Only. Please do not write off topic. Cheers, Mick.

On Monday 19 May 2003 01:25, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

* fsanta (fsanta@arrakis.es) [030518 16:23]: ->> ->I asked for an end to this thread some messages ago. You decided to continue ->it. This list is for users of windows xp. Only. Please do not write off ->topic.

Can you say OOPS. I think if people wrote on the topic of WindowsXP they would get more then a laugh. ;)

Cheers! --

Sense of humour *at last*. Thanks Ben! Cheers, Alex.

Swahili??!! Oooh! I want to subscribe to that one! How is Linux spelled?? Tom On Sun, 2003-05-18 at 16:10, Benjamín Ubach wrote:

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On Sunday 18 May 2003 06:28, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Please, please, please!!! Unsubscribe me from the english-german-european-swahili-spanish-italian-russian-chinese grammar list!!!!!

- -- Benjamín Ubach Nieto \ Reality is acceptable... | spamfree at tutopia.com / \ if practiced with moderation... | ICQ: 66021618 / \ Linux Registered User: 310305 | MSN: exmetallifan at hotmail.com / -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tom Nielsen Neuro Logic Systems, Inc. 805.389.5435 x18 www.neuro-logic.com

On Sunday 18 May 2003 12:28 pm, Sven Burmeister wrote:

John wrote:

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On Saturday 17 May 2003 14:59, Dylan wrote:

...

...

Hey Sven, how many times have you heard you may be a little too anal retentive? Also, how do you figure 'A' Euro is singular, and 'Some' Euro is plural? If I said "I have some euro in my pocket", in english, that means I have one european dolar, thus 'Euros' *is* plural, since it's describing the use of two words together in *one* word, but this applies to the english language only AFAICT.

The issue is one of quantity or number. Quantities don't usually take plurals: some sand, a ton of sand, a grain of sand. This can vary for poetic reasons or to discuss qualities: some wines have more tannin than others. But a buck, three bucks, thirty cents, six trees, twenty chameleons. Things that are countable in units will usually be treated this way.

...

...

Er, -

I have a sheep in my field I have some sheep in my field

Sheep is the plural of sheep, and has a 'strong' plural for historic reasons. Many similar patterns, such as 'kine' as the plural of cow, are dead or dying, and most of us will speak of cows. They are very tasty fried in a little butter and garlic. Pounds is the plural of pound, dollars the plural of dollar, Francs the plural of Franc. Neologisms in English invariably receive -s or-es plurals. Striving for Euro as the plural of Euro, at least in English, seems to me to be entirely artificial. The argument that the word Euro 'doesn't belong' to a language is specious, the word will be handled according to the conventions of the language in which it is being used. Words 'belong' in any language that chooses to adopt them.

...

A lot will depend on the word *and* how it's used in a sentence (in english). Also, sheep is just that...sheep...that's for *that* word, I'm talking about the word 'euro' and how it's used and how/when it's pluralized. Heck, you can bring up all kinds of 'other' words (goose comes to mind), but each 'word' has its own way of being pluralized.

A rather limited number of words have their own ways, and none of recent coinage.

People please, end this! As already pointed out by others Euro is not a "normal" word but an invented name. It is not an English word, it is no language's word, it is a made up, invented, always staying the same no matter in what language word. Thus those who invented it made up the rules for it too. These rules have nothing to do with the common rules in the language the word Euro is used in. The ruleis that no matter if used as singular or plural word, it stays Euro. Grammar does not apply in any language to the word Euro. If people use Euros as plural, they will be understood and it might be ok for colloquial, however it is formally not correct and those who know better should not use it in that way.

On the contrary, English has no central governing academy and is not susceptible to rule by diktat. The plural will be 'Euros' in English, whatever you or I or the EU Commission thinks. Making such an exception may well be charming and entertaining, but English will operate according to the whim of the majority as usual.

I guess after this thread all of you know better. I am also aware that a lot do not care, fair enough, but the rules for that word are not made up by me, you or anyone but the inventors of that word, i.e. there is no use of any kind of dicussion, as it is a decree without any need for reasoning to it. Concluding, those who care about a correct use of a language care and learn, as everybody does, because nobody is perfect. Those who do not care about the correct use of a language or simply cannot accept any rules because they feel threatened in their personal freedom or whatsoever, just keep on using Euros, knowing better.

To those who think that a word should not be given any static rules that apply to it, just think of all the exeptions that are made in any language to general grammar. See the word Euro as another exception, as the word information is, or news as examples for the English language. Who would argue that it is correct to say informations? It's the same as with Euro, there is no sense in argueing, it is a rule just for that word and that's all there is to it.

Sven

...

John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)

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On Monday 19 May 2003 10:02 am, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Fergus Wilde wrote:

...

On Sunday 18 May 2003 12:28 pm, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

John wrote:

...

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On Saturday 17 May 2003 14:59, Dylan wrote:

...

...

Hey Sven, how many times have you heard you may be a little too anal retentive? Also, how do you figure 'A' Euro is singular, and 'Some' Euro is plural? If I said "I have some euro in my pocket", in english, that means I have one european dolar, thus 'Euros' *is* plural, since it's describing the use of two words together in *one* word, but this applies to the english language only AFAICT.

The issue is one of quantity or number. Quantities don't usually take plurals: some sand, a ton of sand, a grain of sand. This can vary for poetic reasons or to discuss qualities: some wines have more tannin than others. But a buck, three bucks, thirty cents, six trees, twenty chameleons. Things that are countable in units will usually be treated this way.

...

...

...

Er, -

I have a sheep in my field I have some sheep in my field

Sheep is the plural of sheep, and has a 'strong' plural for historic reasons. Many similar patterns, such as 'kine' as the plural of cow, are dead or dying, and most of us will speak of cows. They are very tasty fried in a little butter and garlic. Pounds is the plural of pound, dollars the plural of dollar, Francs the plural of Franc. Neologisms in English invariably receive -s or-es plurals. Striving for Euro as the plural of Euro, at least in English, seems to me to be entirely artificial. The argument that the word Euro 'doesn't belong' to a language is specious, the word will be handled according to the conventions of the language in which it is being used. Words 'belong' in any language that chooses to adopt them.

Euro is a name and one should respect names and not change them in another language, at least that's what most people do.

This isn't about respect, merely usage. The French call London Londres, our pronunciation of Rheims makes them fall about laughing, and so on. I'm not advocating any kind of disrespect for words or names - I'm simply telling you what usage will be, and reminding you that English works by accretion and custom. You can't dictate or constrain usage by official policy. Perhaps it would be nice if you could.

...

...

...

A lot will depend on the word *and* how it's used in a sentence (in english). Also, sheep is just that...sheep...that's for *that* word, I'm talking about the word 'euro' and how it's used and how/when it's pluralized. Heck, you can bring up all kinds of 'other' words (goose comes to mind), but each 'word' has its own way of being pluralized.

A rather limited number of words have their own ways, and none of recent coinage.

I bet that was what they said x years ago when other decrees were made.

Decrees introducing what kind of words?

...

...

People please, end this! As already pointed out by others Euro is not a "normal" word but an invented name. It is not an English word, it is no language's word, it is a made up, invented, always staying the same no matter in what language word. Thus those who invented it made up the rules for it too. These rules have nothing to do with the common rules in the language the word Euro is used in. The ruleis that no matter if used as singular or plural word, it stays Euro. Grammar does not apply in any language to the word Euro. If people use Euros as plural, they will be understood and it might be ok for colloquial, however it is formally not correct and those who know better should not use it in that way.

On the contrary, English has no central governing academy and is not susceptible to rule by diktat. The plural will be 'Euros' in English, whatever you or I or the EU Commission thinks. Making such an exception may well be charming and entertaining, but English will operate according to the whim of the majority as usual.

I showed this to my English mates on the corridor, their reaction: Yeah, typical stubborn anti-european, if it has anything to do with the EU they don't like it and don't accept it, you shouldn't give a sh* about them. Well, I did not say it and it might be put a little bit too simple but I mean, they are English, so they should know!? Damn it, your own people, TRAITORS!!! :D "I'm Alan Partridge,..." Muhahahaha.

Far from it, I'm an enthusiastic pro-European. I merely observe that UK usage is only a small fragment of world English, and that unlike France and Germany there is no officially appointed body attempting to oversee the written or spoken forms of the language. Germany, for example, recently promulgated a variety of orthographic and typographical reforms which we can expect to see reflected in school teaching, official publications, and more. The Academie Francaise recently acted against the cedilla. English has no comparable bodies. In the interests of fairness, perhaps you'd care to run this past your mates and see whether they can fault it. You will find the development of the plural in English to be as I have said - if in ten years the expression 'Blimey guv'nor, this pint of Carling rushed me ten Euro' has gained ascendency over 'ten Euros,' I will happily furnish you with a pint of same. I now fade from the debate to the strains of Beethoven's Ode to Joy. Vivat Europa. Best Fergus

Sven

...

...

I guess after this thread all of you know better. I am also aware that a lot do not care, fair enough, but the rules for that word are not made up by me, you or anyone but the inventors of that word, i.e. there is no use of any kind of dicussion, as it is a decree without any need for reasoning to it. Concluding, those who care about a correct use of a language care and learn, as everybody does, because nobody is perfect. Those who do not care about the correct use of a language or simply cannot accept any rules because they feel threatened in their personal freedom or whatsoever, just keep on using Euros, knowing better.

To those who think that a word should not be given any static rules that apply to it, just think of all the exeptions that are made in any language to general grammar. See the word Euro as another exception, as the word information is, or news as examples for the English language. Who would argue that it is correct to say informations? It's the same as with Euro, there is no sense in argueing, it is a rule just for that word and that's all there is to it.

Sven

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John - -- A butterfly is: Pretty,soft,harmless...and useless, just like M$N. My Penguin and my Gecko eat butterflies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux)

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On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 11:20:56AM +0100, fwilde@chethams.org.uk wrote:

This isn't about respect, merely usage. The French call London Londres, our pronunciation of Rheims makes them fall about laughing, and so on.

As does any non-Briton attempting to pronounce "Loughborough"...

On Monday 19 May 2003 10:02 am, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

I showed this to my English mates on the corridor, their reaction: Yeah, typical stubborn anti-european, if it has anything to do with the EU they don't like it and don't accept it, you shouldn't give a sh* about them. Well, I did not say it and it might be put a little bit too simple but I mean, they are English, so they should know!? Damn it, your own people, TRAITORS!!! :D "I'm Alan Partridge,..." Muhahahaha.

Far from it, I'm an enthusiastic pro-European. I merely observe that UK usage is only a small fragment of world English, and that unlike France and Germany there is no officially appointed body attempting to oversee the written or spoken forms of the language. Germany, for example, recently promulgated a variety of orthographic and typographical reforms which we can expect to see reflected in school teaching, official publications, and more. The Academie Francaise recently acted against the cedilla.

I also vaguely recall some initiative a few years ago in the French government/parliament attempting to remove anglicised words from the language, "le weekend" being the most memorable example. The French version of "mouse" (the computer type, rather than the cheese-eating type) is also rather amusingly long-winded.

English has no comparable bodies. In the interests of fairness, perhaps you'd care to run this past your mates and see whether they can fault it. You will find the development of the plural in English to be as I have said - if in ten years the expression 'Blimey guv'nor, this pint of Carling rushed me ten Euro' has gained ascendency over 'ten Euros,' I will happily furnish you with a pint of same.

Let's all tune in to Eastenders in 10 years to find out... :-) You say that you're "enthusiastic pro-European", and you're willing to buy them a "pint of Carling"???

I now fade from the debate to the strains of Beethoven's Ode to Joy. Vivat Europa.

And did those feet in ancient time......... -- David Smith Work Email: Dave.Smith@st.com STMicroelectronics Home Email: David.Smith@ds-electronics.co.uk Bristol, England GPG Key: 0xF13192F2

* The Purple Tiger (Jon@tigersden.demon.co.uk) [030519 08:53]: ->On Monday 19 May 2003 12:45 pm, Dave Smith wrote: ->> As does any non-Briton attempting to pronounce "Loughborough"... ->And for those wo don't live in East Anglia, there is Happisborough ->[pronounced Hays Buh Ruh ;)] And you could go to Southern Illinois and here people pronouce Cairo as K-Row..or you could go to Toronto Canada and hear them pronouce it as if it's spell Tronno. The point is that people pronouce things in English in various places quite differently and sometimes they spell them as they pronouce them if English isn't their first language..or even if it is. :) -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other going in the opposite direction.

On Monday 19 May 2003 09:20, Fergus Wilde wrote:

On Sunday 18 May 2003 12:28 pm, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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John wrote:

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On Saturday 17 May 2003 14:59, Dylan wrote: <SNIP>

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I have a sheep in my field I have some sheep in my field

Sheep is the plural of sheep, and has a 'strong' plural for historic reasons. Many similar patterns, such as 'kine' as the plural of cow, are dead or dying, and most of us will speak of cows. They are very tasty fried in a little butter and garlic. Pounds is the plural of pound, dollars the plural of dollar, Francs the plural of Franc.

if you consult a corpus like the Survey Of English Usage, you'll find that in actual use terms for money as coins and notes tend to remain singular, especially slang tems. The clearest exceptions are the (extinct) shilling and florin. Just consider what you actually hear people say. "That'll be three pound fifty, please". Terms like bob, quid, nicker, etc... never pluralise. The same is true to a lesser extent in imperial weights. Most foreign monetary units do pluralise, whether or hey do in the native tongue - the Rand is probably the most obvious exception. The signifant issue is that The Pound as a currency acts differently from the term used as a unit. Dylan -- Sweet moderation Heart of this nation Desert us not We are between the wars - Billy Bragg

fsanta wrote:

On Saturday 17 May 2003 16:48, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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To get more anwers in this mailinglist I would put your real name when sending email, it's a matter of politness I guess. ;)

I didn't wish to be impolite. Are there any guidelines on this list as to what one can call oneself? I used my internet nic without thinking when I signed up in kmail. My real name is Steve Sheriff and I live in Alicante. Is that OK?

I personally do not have a problem with that, but a lot of people won't even read your email on this list, if they do not see your real name in the email. Just setup your email program with your real name so that the Sender states your name, e.g. Steve Sheriff < Nobody forces you to do anything, but it is a question of ettiquette, i.e. good manners, some have them, many don't. It's up to you. http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html Sven -- << s.burmeister@lancaster.ac.uk * sven.burmeister@gmx.de >> :: Have a look at Germany :: http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/burmeist/

R R wrote:

On Sat, 2003-05-17 at 12:16, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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fsanta wrote:

...

On Saturday 17 May 2003 16:48, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

To get more anwers in this mailinglist I would put your real name when sending email, it's a matter of politness I guess. ;)

I didn't wish to be impolite. Are there any guidelines on this list as to what one can call oneself? I used my internet nic without thinking when I signed up in kmail. My real name is Steve Sheriff and I live in Alicante. Is that OK?

I personally do not have a problem with that, but a lot of people won't even read your email on this list, if they do not see your real name in

and how do they know the real name, someone can put john doe when there real name is jane doe

They do not, it's about trust and a positive image of human beings. If somebody introduces himself to you the first time, how do you know? Do you tell him some alias? Why not? Are these not real people you are talking to? If they are not to you, why should they answer your questions, as you do not even regard them as important as somebody you would meet on the street... ;) Sven -- << s.burmeister@lancaster.ac.uk * sven.burmeister@gmx.de >> :: Have a look at Germany :: http://www.lancs.ac.uk/ug/burmeist/

Sven Burmeister [2003-05-18 08:12]:

I personally do not have a problem with that, but a lot of people won't even read your email on this list, if they do not see your real name in the email.

How can they determine what is a real name and what is not? Of course they can't, so what is being asked for is a name that "looks" real. For reasons I cannot fathom, some people are more comfortable with "Jon Thomas" than "Guess Who," even though both could be aliases, or both real, or any combination of the two. In fact, there are two "Guess Who"s listed at four11.com. There are many legitimate reasons why people may wish to use an alias. http://www.lcs.mit.edu/news/privacy.html

http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html

Excellent, thanks. BTW, it links to Sven Guckes excellent page on mail editing. Sven is an example of a helpful person who is also sometimes acerbic and incessantly nags people about netiquette. IMO, he's clearly an asset to the community even if some people get ticked off by his nagging. The same can be said about some of the people here. We need conventions and standards, and we need people who will take the time to remind people of their existence. -rex (my real name, BTW) -- Moebius strippers never show you their back side.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sven Burmeister wrote: | Nobody forces you to do anything, but it is a question of ettiquette, | i.e. good manners, some have them, many don't. It's up to you. | | http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html | | Sven | Oh, jeez. As many people both on and off line call me NQS as Joe, so if I choose to go by NQS online, whats the harm? maybe i should get my name changed Joe - -- SuSE Linux 8.1 (i386) Kernal: 2.4.19-4GB / i686 | Posted from: Miverna ~ 10:53pm up 7 days, 10:34, 5 users, load average: 0.37, 0.33, 0.28 nqs@tmcom.com | http://tigger.tmcom.com/~nqs/blogger.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+yHHHoS1S7SxfpzwRAhJuAKCfhappiVWnz1DQY5GSszExWRsUiACgtNLN fnkmMxQL0v4d9ktW5dTK0XQ= =0kWH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Monday 19 May 2003 21.23, Benjamín Ubach wrote:

On Saturday 17 May 2003 09:48, Sven Burmeister wrote:

I can't believe i'm paying to download this thread... could anyone remember the central subject of the list... oh! that would be SuSE Linux right?

The name of the list is SuSE Linux English, sometimes we're discussing SuSE Linux, now we're discussing English. Or did I misunderstand something? :)

* Benjamín Ubach (spamfree@tutopia.com) [030519 13:07]: ->Come on people! If you really want to keep this thread going on, take it ->somewhere else. -> ->I remember someone put this on his reply: -> ->http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html -> ->Did you ALL read it? -> -><quote> ->15. Mails with private remarks, greetings and especially flames, -> as well as any other personal discussions, that are intended -> for a specific person should be sent directly to that person -> and not to the list. Those mails are off-topic (OT) in the -> list. Replies to OT-mails should also not be sent to the list. -></quote> I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. But this discussion about off topic posts has been beaten to death over the last 3 years. It was decided that if the Subject line had [OT] or OT so that people could filter out this stuff that it was acceptable. This is how it's done on this list. I'm sorry you have to pay to download your email that has to suck. -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other going in the opposite direction.

On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 07:10 PM, scsijon wrote:

Excuse me BUT, it DOES say "OT" in the heading, and the result could affect all Linux users, and SuSE users use Linux (at least they did last time I logged into my workstation), and most like to keep across things that may seriously affect them. If you don't want to read them, set a filter. If you don't want to download the messages, talk to your isp about setting a filter on your mailbox at their end.

my 2 bits scsijon

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/cut for brevity/

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<quote> 15. Mails with private remarks, greetings and especially flames, as well as any other personal discussions, that are intended for a specific person should be sent directly to that person and not to the list. Those mails are off-topic (OT) in the list. Replies to OT-mails should also not be sent to the list. </quote>

Now I see no one read it... at least not that part...

Now, as by sending this reply I'm breaking that rule too, I'll stop sending replies immediately.

But please, keep it in mind...

/cut again/ I wonder about these threads occasionally myself. But, as scsijon has noted, there are a lot of valuable bits of information in these threads and a lot of insight into the people who write them. It is nice to see how some of the "old minds" (I hope no one takes offense) on this list view some of the topics of discussion. I find a lot of their opinions useful and the links and additional information invaluable. If I find one that rambles in a direction I don't like or get bored with I just drop the thread. I do feel sorry for the "billed" people in other countries and those with slower connections sometimes. Thanks for the ear, will