Yes, that's right Alan, it's like usenet etc. were 10-12 years ago. Those were the days...;) Corvin -- Corvin Russell

Rob, that's a completely sensible approach. C -- Corvin Russell

* Paul Abrahams (abrahams@acm.org) [010622 08:31]: ->Let's distinguish between two very different kinds of OT postings: the ones ->about MS's latest nasty licensing scheme versus the ones about, say, how to ->cool a CPU adequately. The former ones are political, the latter ones ->technical. Does anyone object to the posts about CPU cooling? I would say that any postings such as the ones about CPU cooling should be welcomed because these effect (SuSE) Linux. Say a persons machine was locking up and they were getting really pissed because it started doing it when they loaded SuSE...yet it would have done it anyway because it was a hardware issue they didn't know about. Because of these posts they might go check this out and find that SuSE rocks and their hardware was what needed attention...but without the idea they got from the postings they would never have checked it. These are good. I don't see anything wrong with discussions about what other companies are doing and how it effects the market place. We should know about EULA's that M$ is putting out and other such things that effect us. I do think that in the last couple weeks this whole thing has been way frequent..but it goes in cycles. I also think that 400-600k of messages a day is that bad...and it certainly won't speed up the ftp site. My opinion is that having [OT]..[MS]..[HW]..and other such known additions to the subject should help those who don't care about these postings to filter them out and they can have a nice, happy inbox. This is just my opinion..I like the feeling of community that we get here or I wouldn't have kept up with it all this time. To just have it become a tech support mailing list is a bit boring and not really worth the time of some of the older more experienced users who may ask the 1 random question and answer 50 other questions. Just my 0.02 -- Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org ----- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

* Ben Rosenberg [Jun 22. 2001 10:19]:

* Paul Abrahams (abrahams@acm.org) [010622 08:31]: ->Let's distinguish between two very different kinds of OT postings: the ones ->about MS's latest nasty licensing scheme versus the ones about, say, how to ->cool a CPU adequately. The former ones are political, the latter ones ->technical. Does anyone object to the posts about CPU cooling?

I would say that any postings such as the ones about CPU cooling should be welcomed because these effect (SuSE) Linux. Say a persons machine was locking up and they were getting really pissed because it started doing it when they loaded SuSE...yet it would have done it anyway because it was a hardware issue they didn't know about. Because of these posts they might go check this out and find that SuSE rocks and their hardware was what needed attention...but without the idea they got from the postings they would never have checked it. These are good.

I do not consider this an OT thread either.

I don't see anything wrong with discussions about what other companies are doing and how it effects the market place. We should know about EULA's that M$ is putting out and other such things that effect us. I do think that in the last couple weeks this whole thing has been way frequent..but it goes in cycles. I also think that 400-600k of messages a day is that bad...and it certainly won't speed up the ftp site.

These are the discussions I would like to see leave. And Ben - you say 400-600k. That is a good number -- but that is what you get. We have ~1400 (1396 ATM) subscribers to this list. Well, you can do the math. -- Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic and totally illogic, with just a little bit more effort." -- A. P. J.

I agree completely. As someone noted last night, there has been a big flurry of activity as of late (due to Microsoft's actions recently), but normally when things like this happen, they calm down after a few days. Personally, I think it's a mistake to send the OT posts completely away just because there were a lot of them in the last few days. It really is the sense of community, or as dizzy puts it, "spice" that make this list what it is. Any mailing list can provide a good place to get Linux help - but this one was different. Mads are you listening? -Tim On Friday 22 June 2001 06:41 am, you wrote:

This is the way I see it.

Recently there was some questioning re OT posts mainly if not solely by Fred Miller. There was an "unofficial" count as to for and against. Unofficially, it was something like 14 -5 or so. I think others took that as a sign that people here *wanted* OT posts and in an manner to contribute, they post various news links. Suddenly there are tons of *new* OTs Originating, a free for all so to speak.

Of course this shouldn't mean that Fred had sole control of our OT fud, but that was the general feel of the list before the recent rash of recommendations to zdnet links and register postings. Fred has always providea *small* but *steady* stream of FUD. This new outbreak all happened in the past week. I really don't think there's a problem with replying to one or 2 newly started thread or having a healthy discussion of the ways of M$, however too many new postings is unwanted. NAyoe can surf the net and fin tons of anti M$ fud, posting that heare as a way to interest people is not welcome.

The key is balance and when you have this many people on a list its very easy to swing things out of proportion. As an example, it *appears* that there are tons of OTs however I seriously doubt there are enough to actually warrant a new list. Ive have joined the list and really only see 2 new messages, the new list might seem like a solution but its not, simply because there isn't enough demand.

Even more damaging are recommendations for "rules" and that is not going to go over well at all. What we need at this point is some common sense and general netiqquette from *all* list members. Primary focus is obviously SuSE linux, and people who haven't been here too long should keep to that. I think that all people like a little "spice" (that what makes life interesting) but too much is no good.

When things "seem" to get out of control... a warning from MArtin should easily be enough to bring the list back on it healthy track. Once you get the radical views of "yea, get those guys out here!!", and "do this and do that") you have the tendency to ugly up the list. What has made this list wonderful its the tolerance, and lack of flames.

So in order to keep things the way they were we need common sense, lets all do out best. Also, please note the general consensus of this list. We have people saying "This list is great", "Ive never seen anything like it", "the Suse list is amazing", "the people are so cool..." etc. and THAT is because we are tolerant, respectful, are willing to help others AND... we have a *little* spice!!! I think removing any of those features out and we loose our charm and become boring

Lets get our bearings, be respectful that this is a Linux list and move forward.

rob

-- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ==============

* Timothy R. Butler [Jun 22. 2001 08:01]:

I agree completely. As someone noted last night, there has been a big flurry of activity as of late (due to Microsoft's actions recently), but normally when things like this happen, they calm down after a few days. Personally, I think it's a mistake to send the OT posts completely away just because there were a lot of them in the last few days. It really is the sense of community, or as dizzy puts it, "spice" that make this list what it is. Any mailing list can provide a good place to get Linux help - but this one was different. Mads are you listening?

Yes, of course I am listening. But I don't see the problem with having it on another list? -- Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic and totally illogic, with just a little bit more effort." -- A. P. J.

* Timothy R. Butler [Jun 22. 2001 10:07]:

...

Yes, of course I am listening.

But I don't see the problem with having it on another list?

Well, I think it depends how it's split. If the idea is to moving everything OT (such as news postings, etc.) over to the other list, I think that would hurt the list. Perhaps a better split (I think) would be something like this:

- suse-opendiscuss: a renamed version of the current list - suse-install: a list dedicated only to getting SuSE up and running (so people seeking just install help won't get flooded with non-SuSE posts or even non-install SuSE related posts)

The thing is, by creating a list to handle OT posts, it becomes unclear (I think) where the line is for "OT" is. It also will probably mean crossposting, which means we will end up getting more mail - duplicates even - abeit some of it not on SLE/SuSE bandwidth.

It also means as the list that Chris kindly set up gets older, it will probably become more seperated, with different users from SLE, and less SuSE focused (I would think). The worst part though (I think) is that SLE would no longer be an open discussion that largely is on topic - it would loose as ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is important. What I like is that when we have a new list, discussion can move there when growing too big. I've seen it on several other lists. People quickly learn how to say "Ok, moved to schnick-schnack, because OT", and the discussion then continues

Lets cross that bridge when we get there, ok? there.

dizzy put it, it's spice. The thing with this list isn't that you can't subscribe to several lists I find all of the discussion here, but the fact that it was all tied together into the SLE list. I guess you could say in a way it was similar to the bazaar-style oss development - it was a flurry of different things going on, but it almost alway resulted in useful discussions about out favorite Linux-distro or something users of SuSE find very interesting.

I understand SuSE's reasoning, but at the same time, I think it will alter (in not necessarily a good way) an extremely wonderful example of the open source community.

Lets wait and see. I'm pretty sure that the spice will not be gone from this list -- it's just back to the level where it belongs. I have good faith in the community on this list beeing able to adjust it, so we end up with an even better list. -- Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic and totally illogic, with just a little bit more effort." -- A. P. J.

Corvin Russell schrieb:

Can anyone estimate the ratio of the number of

off-topic posts : posts about off-topic posts?

I'm guessing 1:1.

-- Corvin Russell

Hi Corvin, nice to read from you, man! Now, I again do entirely agree with what stands behind your words. This is precisely the same like with the OT-questions and the often flamming comments: In the amount of time they post their regulations, they could have easily given one the information that was lacking (quoted freely from s.o. here). In other words: Let us learn not to be snotty, but friendly instead. Let us learn to talk - like radio amateurs - "SuSe Spirit-Language" Kindest regards from me here, O -- *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨¨*¤ =Oliver@home= *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨*¤

Hi, On Fri, Jun 22 2001 at 10:12 -0700, Mads Martin Jørgensen wrote:

* Timothy R. Butler [Jun 22. 2001 10:07]:

...

It also means as the list that Chris kindly set up gets older, it will probably become more seperated, with different users from SLE, and less SuSE focused (I would think). The worst part though (I think) is that SLE would no longer be an open discussion that largely is on topic - it would loose as ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is important. What I like is that when we have a new list, discussion can move there when growing too big. I've seen it on several other lists. People quickly learn how to say "Ok, moved to schnick-schnack, because OT", and the discussion then continues there.

That's how people on the German SuSE-Linux list handle it. If things become too off-topic someone just sets a reply-to to SuSE-Talk. Works very well. Ciao, Stefan -- Stefan Troeger o _ _ _ stefan@troeger.st __o __o /\_ _ \\o (_)\__/o (_) _`\<, _`\<, _>(_) (_)/<_ \_| \ _|/' \/ (_)/(_) (_)/(_) (_) (_) (_) (_)' _\o_

This is important. What I like is that when we have a new list, discussion can move there when growing too big. I've seen it on several other lists. People quickly learn how to say "Ok, moved to schnick-schnack, because OT", and the discussion then continues there.

Okay. So If I am understanding right, for the record, this is what you are saying. We can still discuss the latest MS news, Fred can still post his news messages, and we can talk about CPU cooling. The idea is that if 20 messages later the MS thread is still going, it ought to move over to Chris' lx-talk list, right? If that's the case things are good - that's better than a "kill thread" message when the thread is interesting. -Tim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ============== "Information Powered by Innovation" ==============

I for one am a silent listener. I love the OT posts as well as a linux or suse question, because not only am I learning about linux and SuSE, im also learning about 1. People 2. SuSE and linux 3. whats happening in the computing world 4. and since I am new to linux, about 2 years, I learn a great deal of what other fellow linux users think of M$ and various other computer companies and so forth. I have learned a GREAT deal on this list whether it was on topic or off topic ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mads Martin Jørgensen" To: "Timothy R. Butler" Cc: "dizzy" ; "SuSE Mailing List" Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [SLE] Off topic postings

* Timothy R. Butler [Jun 22. 2001 14:21]:

...

...

This is important. What I like is that when we have a new list, discussion can move there when growing too big. I've seen it on several other lists. People quickly learn how to say "Ok, moved to schnick-schnack, because OT", and the discussion then

continues

...

there.

Okay. So If I am understanding right, for the record, this is what you are saying. We can still discuss the latest MS news, Fred can still post his news messages, and we can talk about CPU cooling. The idea is that if 20 messages later the MS thread is still going, it ought to move over to Chris' lx-talk list, right? If that's the case things are good - that's better than a "kill thread" message when the thread is interesting.

I don't want to dictate what's going on on this list, it's still a free forum.

But think of me as a spokesperson for all the people who are sitting irritated about too much OT stuff, but don't want to say anything because it generates traffic, and that is what they want to avoid.

I think there's a lot of of "silent deleters" out there, since there's ~1400 people subscribed to this list.

I think you all got the point here.

-- Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic and totally illogic, with just a little bit more effort." -- A. P. J.

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq and the archives at http://lists.suse.com

On Saturday 23 June 2001 05:19 pm, Terence McCarthy wrote:

On Friday 22 June 2001 21:49, Mads Martin Jørgensen wrote:

...

I think there's a lot of of "silent deleters" out there, since there's ~1400 people subscribed to this list.

I think you all got the point here.

Yes, I have, make a noise, arouse a couple of dozen off-topic rants, and we have a polarised list.

If it is going to be a sterile well-(SIF)policed "SuSE only topic" list I would think the 1400 may well be a lot less fairly soon, when the community I've enjoyed being part of over the last few years seems to be becoming intolerant.

So what about bandwidth? With 1400 subscribers what's the hit rate for OT postings (apart from the dozens over this topic over the last few days).

I hope it doesn't split, and I hope for a little more tolerance.

Terence

Well, with all of the yelling and screaming about the OT postings, the list *has* split -- there is now a new list, and all of the fun topics are over there now. So come one, come all :-) -Steven PS: In case you didn't get the earlier message, the email address to subscribe to the list is: lx-talk-subscribe@big7.net

* Timothy R. Butler (tbutler@uninetsolutions.com) [010623 14:48]: -> ->> Yes, I have, make a noise, arouse a couple of dozen off-topic rants, ->> and we have a polarised list. ->> ->> If it is going to be a sterile well-(SIF)policed "SuSE only topic" list I ->> would think the 1400 may well be a lot less fairly soon, when the community ->> I've enjoyed being part of over the last few years seems to be becoming ->> intolerant. -> -> Well, if I understand right, Mads is saying OT posts can stay, but if a ->long thread starts to form, the posters should volutarily move to lx-talk. If ->that's the case it sounds good, although I don't think that fact has been ->noticed by too many people. Even if this is the case though, some damage is ->already done - Fred Miller is now posting all of his news messages on lx-talk ->instead. :-( How about posting OT things here, but taking the time to change the replyto: so that it points to the noise list. And Mads: NO pics of bar posters please..we wouldn't want Dirk getting wind of it ;) -- Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org ----- "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

fredagen den 22 juni 2001 22:09 skrev Oliver Ob:

fred a.m. and co: please collect your news and links and simply release them ONLY ONCE PER MONTH via this list. sort of "miller press news" then all the complaints will certainly calm down.

But if you save the "news" for one month, would'nt that make them "olds" ? Please give me the instruktions on how to register for the new list. I don't want to miss the news.

"Timothy R. Butler" schrieb:

...

well when balance is all of the problem i got a suggestion:

fred a.m. and co: please collect your news and links and simply release them ONLY ONCE PER MONTH via this list. sort of "miller press news" then all the complaints will certainly calm down.

That would be fine, but after a month, most of the stuff isn't interesting or relevent... lx-talk definately works better in that the news (although not on SLE) is still revelent when published.

...

BUT: (biigg but here!) when it comes to balance concerning discussions ON these mails, i'd be for moving THESE discussions to a different ml.

But again, I can truely second that the (I call them so here) "miller'n co-mails" packed into ONE mail a month would be enough information on this s.e. list.

Like I said, personally at least, after a month I've probably already read all of the stuff Fred posts - it's more the immediate value of it. And since Fred is already posting on lx-talk, we are all set. :-)

-Tim

grrrr... then let it be once per WEEK. but: i will #not# register for the whole lx.talk bunch when I only want to read fred's lovely SHORT mails. so i yet need fred's mails... ok. then let's say once per WEEK -- *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨¨*¤ =Oliver@home= *º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨*¤ Also, wie war das denn nochmal? Da wir jetzt durch eine untaktisch kluge Fuegung eingesehen haben, dass das mit der Zusammendehnung ein echter Griff ins Klo war, sehen wir keinen weiteren Grund zur Veranlassung.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello all: I really hate my self for posting a post on OT post but for me this is a non-issue. I like all have a delete function on my mail reader. So when I do not want to read some thing I delete. When volumn becomes a problem, I just create a filter to handle it. For me their is no problem. How ever I can see a problem for some that pay "big bucks" for downloads based on volumn or time on line and they like to limit their costs. So forgive me if I have contributed to a problem for you. But I fell that there will always be off topic posts so just be tolerant and if it gets to much just kindly inform and and we all will try and limit. Ralph On Monday 25 June 2001 10:42, you wrote:

Already done. at ""LX-Talk"" . This was giving to the list by Christian Klippel. The intention is that A) a OT post on the SuSE can be referred to the lx-talk list if it gets too long or out of hand. B) submit OT posts directly to the lx-talk list if desired.

The latter is perferred by some on the list, but not everyone is aware of the new list and as new SuSE list members join it may be prudent from time to time to notifty the SuSE list of the LX-talk list periodically. I am a little concerned that some members of the list that would rather not see a lot of OT postings might confuse or scare away new members that aren't aware of this issue. I would hope that a little FYI to a user that is not l on the lx-talk list, or aware of it, would be a viable alternative to posting a compliant about an OT post, especially with new or unaware members.

Just MHO. Cheers, Curtis

On Friday 22 June 2001 15:09, Oliver Ob wrote:

...

dizzy schrieb:

...

This is the way I see it.

Recently there was some questioning re OT posts mainly if not solely by Fred Miller. There was an "unofficial" count as to for and against. Unofficially, it was something like 14 -5 or so. I think others took that as a sign that people here *wanted* OT posts and in an manner to contribute, they post various news links. Suddenly there are tons of *new* OTs Originating, a free for all so to speak.

Of course this shouldn't mean that Fred had sole control of our OT fud, but that was the general feel of the list before the recent rash of recommendations to zdnet links and register postings. Fred has always providea *small* but *steady* stream of FUD. This new outbreak all happened in the past week. I really don't think there's a problem with replying to one or 2 newly started thread or having a healthy discussion of the ways of M$, however too many new postings is unwanted. NAyoe can surf the net and fin tons of anti M$ fud, posting that heare as a way to interest people is not welcome.

The key is balance and when you have this many people on a list its very

well when balance is all of the problem i got a suggestion:

fred a.m. and co: please collect your news and links and simply release them ONLY ONCE PER MONTH via this list. sort of "miller press news" then all the complaints will certainly calm down.

BUT: (biigg but here!) when it comes to balance concerning discussions ON these mails, i'd be for moving THESE discussions to a different ml.

But again, I can truely second that the (I call them so here) "miller'n co-mails" packed into ONE mail a month would be enough information on this s.e. list.

i think this is a fair compromise: those who like fred's links and news get a permanent SHORT overview. and those who want to discuss these very topics, have their own ml without flooding up THIS list.

kindest regards, O

Vote for solution "O" hehehe

- -- It said uses Windows 98 or better so I installed SuSE 7.2 Proud user of SuSE 7.2 Professional Register Linux User 168814 ICQ #49993234 GPG Public Key available at http://www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 6426 1CFF 0987 9D51 76D6  06BC F22A CFF4 559A 03E7 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7Nis38irP9FWaA+cRAhJBAJ9kImz5067djnfn0AiQ0lLjjZghhACdFEP7 Fz6qZfIRMHPrfcBXsPOIhfI= =OdXF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From Curtis Rey to Oliver Ob and suse-linux-e@suse.com about Re: [SLE] Off...:

Already done. at ""LX-Talk"" . This was giving to the list by Christian Klippel. The intention is that A) a OT post on the SuSE can be referred to the lx-talk list if it gets too long or out of hand. B) submit OT posts directly to the lx-talk list if desired.

The latter is perferred by some on the list, but not everyone is aware of the new list and as new SuSE list members join it may be prudent from time to time to notifty the SuSE list of the LX-talk list periodically. I am a little concerned that some members of the list that would rather not see a lot of OT postings might confuse or scare away new members that aren't aware of this issue. I would hope that a little FYI to a user that is not l on the lx-talk list, or aware of it, would be a viable alternative to posting a compliant about an OT post, especially with new or unaware members.

Maybe a message, explaining this, could be sent every day, for example with a [new] tag in the subject so that list 'veterans' can filter it away. Or maybe letting majordomo explain this when subscribing to SLE is a better solution.

Just MHO. Cheers, Curtis

On Friday 22 June 2001 15:09, Oliver Ob wrote:

...

dizzy schrieb:

...

This is the way I see it.

Recently there was some questioning re OT posts mainly if not solely by Fred Miller. There was an "unofficial" count as to for and against. Unofficially, it was something like 14 -5 or so. I think others took that as a sign that people here *wanted* OT posts and in an manner to contribute, they post various news links. Suddenly there are tons of *new* OTs Originating, a free for all so to speak.

Of course this shouldn't mean that Fred had sole control of our OT fud, but that was the general feel of the list before the recent rash of recommendations to zdnet links and register postings. Fred has always providea *small* but *steady* stream of FUD. This new outbreak all happened in the past week. I really don't think there's a problem with replying to one or 2 newly started thread or having a healthy discussion of the ways of M$, however too many new postings is unwanted. NAyoe can surf the net and fin tons of anti M$ fud, posting that heare as a way to interest people is not welcome.

The key is balance and when you have this many people on a list its very

well when balance is all of the problem i got a suggestion:

fred a.m. and co: please collect your news and links and simply release them ONLY ONCE PER MONTH via this list. sort of "miller press news" then all the complaints will certainly calm down.

BUT: (biigg but here!) when it comes to balance concerning discussions ON these mails, i'd be for moving THESE discussions to a different ml.

But again, I can truely second that the (I call them so here) "miller'n co-mails" packed into ONE mail a month would be enough information on this s.e. list.

i think this is a fair compromise: those who like fred's links and news get a permanent SHORT overview. and those who want to discuss these very topics, have their own ml without flooding up THIS list.

kindest regards, O

Vote for solution "O" hehehe

-- dieter