On Friday 30 January 2009 1:15:10 pm Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Freitag, 30. Januar 2009 17:04:28 schrieb Larry Stotler:

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I'd be interested in hearing from those who use it and what their experiences are.

Evidently Linus Torvalds agrees with you. Considering how much he said he hated gnome, he's now using it instead of KDE4.

Who wouldn't agree if KDE4.*0* was forced on you?

Sven

Whoa! Linus Torvalds had KDE 4.0 forced on him? I hope he had whoever did that arrested! I hate it when extremists and terrorists force me to install new software. It's a sad state of affairs when people think the only way to get their point across is to impinge on my rights as a user. I'll pray for you, Linus. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote:

Work, to a lot of us, is about a lot more than moving icons and widgets around to different windows and panels all day. It's the getting stuff done part of the kde4 desktop that needs the fixing.

I have long been complaining about the preference of "eye candy" over function. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

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I have long been complaining about the preference of "eye candy" over function.

Surely you are not married!

Function is very important, but nobody will be interested if it doesn't look good. You and me and others who subscribe to Linux mailing lists don't count.

I have never said it shouldn't look nice. What I have said is that appearance shouldn't be at the expense of function. Would you buy a car that looked great and had all sorts of fancy gadgets, but was barely able to get out of the driveway? -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

Am Montag, 2. Februar 2009 08:57:42 schrieb David C. Rankin:

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Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Who wouldn't agree if KDE4.*0* was forced on you?

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If you recall 8 months ago -- it was...

Really?, if I remember correctly, 11.0 defaulted to 3.5, so no forcing. 11.1 provides KDE3 alongside KDE4 so no forcing either

Wrong! 3.5 is under "other" not along side. , apart from the fact that

4.*0* was only part of 11.0, yet even 4.1 was not forced on anyone using openSUSE and not fedora.

Sven

-- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Montag, 2. Februar 2009 14:25:04 schrieb Ken Schneider:

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Sven Burmeister pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

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Am Montag, 2. Februar 2009 08:57:42 schrieb David C. Rankin:

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Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Who wouldn't agree if KDE4.*0* was forced on you?

If you recall 8 months ago -- it was...

Really?, if I remember correctly, 11.0 defaulted to 3.5, so no forcing. 11.1 provides KDE3 alongside KDE4 so no forcing either

Wrong! 3.5 is under "other" not along side.

Oh come one, that's all you got to prove that opensuse forced KDE 4.*0* on you? If this is forcing, I might have got the meaning of that word wrong.

I have often recommended KDE to others. Now suppose some newbie goes to install OpenSUSE and selects KDE. What version will they get? Not all users will look beyond that first menu. Further, how long before KDE 4 is the only choice? Like Linux, I'm not to thrilled with the prospect of using Gnome. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Really?, if I remember correctly, 11.0 defaulted to 3.5, so no forcing. 11.1 provides KDE3 alongside KDE4 so no forcing either, apart from the fact that 4.*0* was only part of 11.0, yet even 4.1 was not forced on anyone using openSUSE and not fedora.

No, there was no default in 11.0. However, KDE4 was "higher" on the list then KDE3, and since it said 4 and 4 is bigger than 3, some people thought that it meant it was better and ignored the descriptions. Also, there were only "official" livecds with KDE4(and gnome). And, a lot of the ones on this list who had already updated the 11.0's KDE to 4.1.x that talked about all the fixes forgot about all the end users who had no idea how to setup the build service or any clue it was even there. The users on this list aren't the only ones who use openSUSE. Further, at no time did I mention "force". The OP said:

For me, KDE4 looks to be not worth the learning curve. Since KDE4 forces me to learn *something* new and less usable than KDE3 it seems worth considering Gnome.

Therefore, it wasn't about being "forced" to use it, it was about being "forced" to learn how to "use it". I pointed out that even Linus, who has bashed Gnome in the past, has decided it's better than KDE4.x. Me? I'll just stick with 11.0/KDE3. While you and others seem to love KDE4, it's not been so universally accepted by everyone. I asked that 11.1 be delayed for 4.2, and was told no. Now, 11.2 is projected to be delayed for 4.3. If 11.1 had been on an 8 month cycle, 4.2 could have been in it and 4.3 would have been ontrack for 11.2 Unless 4.2 is pushed out as an update for the main system, then we can't just talk about how 4.2 is better or how KDE4 is better and only refer to the newer parts. Many people are still using the 4.1.x in 11.1 and will probably continue to do so. Further, as I have repeatedly said, where is the compelling reason to use KDE4? I installed 11.1/KDE4 on a system and when I tried to make the desktop folder the size of the desktop, after logging out and back in, I no longer had anything on the desktop. I PREFER to have icons on my desktop. I could care less about having different wallpapers on different virtual dkestops because I don't use it. But, for each person who likes the bling of KDE4, there is a KDE3 person that liked/used the things that KDE4 dropped and/or didn't bother to add. KDE4 isn't faster(it was slower on my desktop), it didn't use less RAM(which I proved a long time ago). And, the comparisons to KDE1/2 and KDE2/3 aren't moot because those changeovers weren't radical like KDE4. I can sit down and use KDE1, KDE2, and KDE3 easily(I have SuSE 7.3 installed on a powerbook and a thinkpad right now and could pull SuSE 5.3 out of mothballs for KDE1 anytime I want). KDE4 is baffling and overly complex, which is what they claimed they were trying to aviod! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

I never stated that you said anything about "forced". Neither did I refer to the OP's comment on KDE4 forcing him to learn new things. You jumped some levels in the thread. I only replied to your comment regarding Linus Torvalds and pointed out that if anyone was forced to use KDE 4.0, he would agree on it not being usable compared to KDE 3.5.

Ok, now I am thoroughly corn-fused. Duh...... Anyway, I THINK I see your point now.

I claimed opensuse did not force anyone to use KDE 4.0 and not even 4.1. David claimed that eight months ago 4.0 was, which is what I do not agree with.

Yeah, I see that as well, however, there was the conception that 4 was being pushed over 3(and it was). But no-one was forcing anyone to use anything. So long as 11.0/3.5.x works, I will stick with it. However, I do get tired of hearing how great KDE4 is and for me it's the total opposite. However, I have yet to install 4.2, so when I have some time(maybe next year at this rate) I will re-install 11.1 and update to 4.2. I don't demand a lot from my desktop, but the way KDE4 works is very alien to what I am used to(and I've used so many OS/Desktops like OS/2 and all the others). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

The KDE team should have look at the OS/2 WPS for ideas. It was doing some incredible things 17 years ago, that I have not seen elsewhere.

Please, tell me what ideas in OS/2 you would like to see in KDE. I do not have access to such a system, but if you have specific ideas that you would like to see implemented that is entirely possible. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

On Tuesday 03 February 2009 15:07:35 James Knott wrote:

There were shadows, which can best be described as links on the desktop, so that you could have multiple instances of the same object and if you changed one, they all changed.

Along these lines, when will konq/dolphin be able to make hard links? That's one of the few tasks that I have to drop down to the CLI for (not that I mind), but I do it often enough that it's been annoying me for the last 4 years. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

It's been a few years since I've run OS/2, so I'm working from memory. However, one thing it had was 64KB of extended attributes, which could contain an incredible amount of searchable info about an object.

Dolphin can tag and let one add comments to files and directories. It is very basic now, but soon it will be indexed and searchable. I do not know if this is similar to what you describe.

For example, if you downloaded a zipped file from CompuServe, with an app called "Golden Compass", the EAs for that file would have all kinds of stuff, including the file_id.dz (IIRC), which was a text file describing the zip contents automatically.

Do any current zip files have that metadata today?

You could also add your own description and other meta data. You could then search your system, using complex relationships, based on that meta data. If you added something to the desktop, it was automatically added to the "Warp" menu. There were shadows, which can best be described as links on the desktop, so that you could have multiple instances of the same object and if you changed one, they all changed.

Symlinks?

Also, since a desktop icon was part of the EAs, it always "knew" where the object was located, so that if that object was moved, the meta data updated automatically, unlike Linux or Windows, where you simply have a link that points to a file and if the file is moved the icon can no longer find it.

That might be a nice feature, but I don't think that it should be handled at the desktop environment level. Mention it on LKML.

There are many, many things that the WPS can do, far more than I can mention in a brief message.

If you find a webpage that mentions the features that you like, link it. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

However, you may be better off looking for OS/2 books, which cover this stuff in detail.

Well, _I'm_ not missing any of the features :) -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

One other thing I forgot to mention. OS/2 didn't need file extensions, as the file type and application info was stored in the EAs.

Neither does Linux, that information is usually available in the file headers. See "file" command. This should be easy to incorporate into KDE for files that are missing their extensions. What is EA? Extended Attributes (just a guess)? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2009/2/4 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. :

On Tuesday 03 February 2009 16:43:57 Dotan Cohen wrote:

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One other thing I forgot to mention. OS/2 didn't need file extensions, as the file type and application info was stored in the EAs.

This should be easy to incorporate into KDE for files that are missing their extensions.

I figured it already was via strigi indexing files and determining their mime-type.

My daily driver is KDE 3.5.10 and it just opened a no-extension pdf file in the default pdf viewer. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

Back when I started using OS/2, the alternative was Windows 3. IIRC, Windows still requires file extensions.

I think that is to prevent the delivery of malware.exe as pr0n.jpg as Windows [generally, in it's default configuration] lacks better security methods. Of course, since XP the default has been to hide extensions, so the name pr0n.jpg.exe would still get by. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

That was a feature of the file system, not the desktop and are nothing GNOME or KDE could implement on their own. POSIX extended attributes could possibly be used for similiar purposes, but then you would have to go and adapt every utility that somehow deals with files to also use them (which had to be done for all tools ported to OS/2).

The WPS had so many advantages over Win3.x and the other GUIs available at the time. Fully pre-emptive multi-tasking, excellent support for running dos programs in windows. It was like finally being able to unlock your machine. However, since it's been so long since I have used it

Like I wrote, most of the features you mentioned have nothing to do with the WPS but rather of HPFS, the filesystem OS/2 uses.

Which is funny since NTFS is based on HPFS. In fact, a lot of NT v3.1 was beta tested on OS/2 since they had a lot of stuff in common, but many things that were very different. The kernels are very different to say the least. And, I was able to lock it up in less than 5 minutes when NT first came out and didn't even have everything I usually had running in OS/2 running yet...... :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/02/04 18:23 (GMT+0100) Philipp Thomas composed:

* James Knott (james.knott@rogers.com) [20090203 22:07]:

...

However, one thing it had was 64KB of extended attributes, which could contain an incredible amount of searchable info about an object.

That was a feature of the file system, not the desktop and are nothing GNOME or KDE could implement on their own. POSIX extended attributes could possibly be used for similiar purposes, but then you would have to go and adapt every utility that somehow deals with files to also use them (which had to be done for all tools ported to OS/2).

...

There are many, many things that the WPS can do, far more than I can mention in a brief message.

Like I wrote, most of the features you mentioned have nothing to do with the WPS but rather of HPFS, the filesystem OS/2 uses.

HPFS is what OS/2 used initially, but later IBM JFS was added, with the same behavior. -- "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

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On 2009/02/04 18:23 (GMT+0100) Philipp Thomas composed:

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* James Knott (james.knott@rogers.com) [20090203 22:07]:

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However, one thing it had was 64KB of extended attributes, which could contain an incredible amount of searchable info about an object.

That was a feature of the file system, not the desktop and are nothing GNOME or KDE could implement on their own. POSIX extended attributes could possibly be used for similiar purposes, but then you would have to go and adapt every utility that somehow deals with files to also use them (which had to be done for all tools ported to OS/2).

...

There are many, many things that the WPS can do, far more than I can mention in a brief message.

Like I wrote, most of the features you mentioned have nothing to do with the WPS but rather of HPFS, the filesystem OS/2 uses.

HPFS is what OS/2 used initially, but later IBM JFS was added, with the same behavior.

Actually, according to the wikipedia article on the os/2 shadow feature, it was a feature of the shell. If you moved files while the shell wasn't running, the shadow links were broken. If you put it back and then restarted the shell, the shadow would resume. see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(OS/2)

Curious, that's one of the things I used to demonstrate, to show how much better OS/2 was. I guess my computer was imagining things. BTW, while Wikipedia is a very useful source of info, it cannot be considered authoritative. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

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The KDE team should have look at the OS/2 WPS for ideas. It was doing some incredible things 17 years ago, that I have not seen elsewhere.

Please, tell me what ideas in OS/2 you would like to see in KDE. I do not have access to such a system, but if you have specific ideas that you would like to see implemented that is entirely possible.

Though it was more of an HPFS thingy, I *LOVED* the extended attributes on files on the hard drives. The Presentation Manager (and whatever it was called in Warp) did a superb job of allowing one to organize files. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org bis zum bitteren Ende -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

Dotan Cohen wrote:

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...

The KDE team should have look at the OS/2 WPS for ideas. It was doing some incredible things 17 years ago, that I have not seen elsewhere.

Please, tell me what ideas in OS/2 you would like to see in KDE. I do not have access to such a system, but if you have specific ideas that you would like to see implemented that is entirely possible.

Though it was more of an HPFS thingy, I *LOVED* the extended attributes on files on the hard drives.

The Presentation Manager (and whatever it was called in Warp) did a superb job of allowing one to organize files.

The desktop in OS/2 & later, was called the "Workplace Shell". It was the first place I ever saw an FTP folder, where you could create a folder of an FTP site. There were also folders that you could use as a work place and when you closed it, all the documents would close. When you opened that folder later, your documents would reopen, so you could continue working where you left off. Also, while the EAs were indeed part of the HPFS file system, it was the desktop that made much use of them. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 8:28 AM, James Knott wrote:

The KDE team should have look at the OS/2 WPS for ideas. It was doing some incredible things 17 years ago, that I have not seen elsewhere.

Yeah, OS/2 had things that still aren't in most systems. v4.0 has built-in voice recognition s/w. It was like Star Trek. Nothing else has come close. Damn shame it never made it. I have a copy of v4 that I need to install at some point to rememer what I am missing.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Kai Ponte wrote:

http://www.ecomstation.com

Don't bother trying OS2 3.x or 4.x under virtual machines (unless you're running Parallels or maybe VirtualPC) because it is supposedly very difficult. However, ecomstation has carried the OS2 development flag and has a new version out.

Actually I have several older 486 and Pentium systems that I was thinking about. They aren't doing anything anyway. eCommstation is ok, but expensive. However, it has still been left behind. If IBM had actually continued it, it could have been awesome, but............ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 5:34 PM, James Knott wrote:

I have every version from Warp 4 back to 2.1. I used to have 2.0, which I eventually tossed and 1.3, which I sold to someone, but never used. I also still have many CDs from when I worked at IBM Canada, where I did 3rd level OS/2 support. I used OS/2 on my home systems for about 10 years. Between OS/2 and Linux, I always feel as though I'm working with one hand tied behind my back, when I have to use Windows.

I bought my first copy of 2.1 with windows(blue spine) in 1992. It was so awesome. Especially after fighting with Desqview. I used it up till 3.0. I never had a copy of 4.0 until recently. I used my warp3 for a long time, went to win98, and then founf SuSE 5.3 in 99. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2009/02/03 18:20 (GMT-0500) Larry Stotler composed:

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On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 5:34 PM, James Knott wrote:

...

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I have every version from Warp 4 back to 2.1. I used to have 2.0, which I eventually tossed and 1.3, which I sold to someone, but never used. I also still have many CDs from when I worked at IBM Canada, where I did 3rd level OS/2 support. I used OS/2 on my home systems for about 10 years. Between OS/2 and Linux, I always feel as though I'm working with one hand tied behind my back, when I have to use Windows.

...

I bought my first copy of 2.1 with windows(blue spine) in 1992. It was so awesome. Especially after fighting with Desqview. I used it up till 3.0. I never had a copy of 4.0 until recently. I used my warp3 for a long time, went to win98, and then founf SuSE 5.3 in 99.

I bought 2.0, but did little more than fiddle with it, finding it easier to stick with DesqView. I did the same with 2.10, 2.11 & Warp 3. I bought Warp 4 too, but eventually decided to switch to it when I decided it was time for me to have internet.

Don't bother trying to install from an original Warp 3 or 4 CD onto anything with a HD bigger than about 2G or 8G (I don't remember which was the limit back then).

It was originally 2 GB, then 8, but I don't recall other maxes after that. You could replace one file on the install floppies to install on a larger drive. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/02/03 23:03 (GMT-0500) Larry Stotler composed:

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 9:43 PM, James Knott wrote:

...

It was originally 2 GB, then 8, but I don't recall other maxes after that. You could replace one file on the install floppies to install on a larger drive.

I'll have to look at my copy of v4. I ran v2.1 on a 386DX/40 with 8MB and then v3 on a 486DX/40 with 8MB.

I have an old Gateway with a 486DX2/66 and 64MB that I was thinking about using.

I suggest you won't feel much accomplishment in doing that. Other than you prove you can, what's the point? Instead, put it on something that can run modern versions of available software, like OO.org, Firefox or SeaMonkey. Find something with a PII or K6/2 at least, 400MHz at least, and a BIOS smart enough to support LBA48 or even SATA. Modern software demands more than the pittance required to actually run the originals. Go for 256M at least if you want to run Firefox. There are various free ports of modern software, including a freeware product to create better installation CDs by incorporating OS fixpaks and drivers for 100 & gigabit NICs, onboard sound chips, USB, and SATA. To mount OS/2 shares reliably you'll need very recent CIFS and a post-2.6.25 kernel, while for OS/2 to mount Samba shares you'll need special weak security configured in smb.conf. Check out these links before choosing an installation target or setting related goals: http://en.os2.org/software/updates/?section=3 http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/h-search.php?key=danis506&pushbutton=Search http://www.updcd.tk/ http://www.os2warp.be/index2.php?name=nicpak http://www.mozilla.org/ports/os2/#wzinst http://os2ports.smedley.info/ http://www.os2bbs.com/ http://www.os2voice.org/ eCS make it very much easier: http://www.ecomstation.com/ -- "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Larry Stotler (larrystotler@gmail.com) [20090203 22:44]:

I have a copy of v4 that I need to install at some point to rememer what I am missing....

I haven't been able to do so. It won't install natively on any hardware I have and installing in vmware workstation also failed. I even tried a trial version of eComStation but that also failed to install. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/02/04 20:17 (GMT+0100) Philipp Thomas composed:

* Larry Stotler (larrystotler@gmail.com) [20090203 22:44]:

...

I have a copy of v4 that I need to install at some point to rememer what I am missing....

I haven't been able to do so. It won't install natively on any hardware I have and installing in vmware workstation also failed. I even tried a trial version of eComStation but that also failed to install.

The free trial version does not include support for ACPI or the latest hardware. The dividing line for support is around the time SATA became the norm. To install Warp 4 on modern hardware you'll need to update the original CD: http://www.updcd.tk/ Or, possibly the updated floppy boot method. Better, use an eComStation CD new enough to include support for your hardware. The latest 2.0RC installs on most hardware. Another option is to install on old hardware, update to the latest fixes, then transfer that HD to a newer system, cloning from PATA to SATA if necessary. Warp 4 for was released in early 1996. You wouldn't expect Win95 or SuSE 1.0 to install easily on modern hardware, would you? -- "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up." Ephesians 4:29 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 05 February 2009, Philipp Thomas wrote:

No, but I would have expected to be able to install Warp 4 in a virtual machine which I haven't been able to either.

What virtual Machine? AFAIK neither VMWare nor Virtualbox will run OS/2, but Parallels does. I have not tried Warp 4, but eComStation 1.2 runs OK. Thierry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Kai Ponte (opensuse@perfectreign.com) [20090206 14:12]:

http://ewiki.ecomstation.nl/VirtualBox

And it needs a CPU with VT-x/AMD-V and I have a socket 939 Athlon64 X2 and only socket AM2+ and up CPUs have AMD-V :( So that project has to wait until I update my hardware which is still a year or two off. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 2. Februar 2009 20:51:00 schrieb jdd:

Sven Burmeister a écrit :

...

I claimed opensuse did not force anyone to use KDE 4.0 and not even 4.1. David claimed that eight months ago 4.0 was, which is what I do not agree with.

yes, it's true, nobody is obliged to go to kde4, but many important applications do not backport to kde3.. for example digikam, qlandkarte that I use frequently, so I will be obliged to make the jump soon or later, that's why I try to learn now (however, I didn't try before 4.2).

digikam is still maintained for kde3 for at least one release ;) and then you'll still be able to use the kde4 apps in kde3 :) (not really different from using an GTK app in KDE3/4 ;) ) Regards Michael (which is wondering about the topic, isn't this about gnome?)

James Knott fired up his etch-a-sketch and scratched out:

...

Really?, if I remember correctly, 11.0 defaulted to 3.5, so no forcing. 11.1 provides KDE3 alongside KDE4 so no forcing either, apart from the fact that 4.*0* was only part of 11.0, yet even 4.1 was not forced on anyone using openSUSE and not fedora.

Sven

IIRC, in 11.1 KDE 3.5 is buried a bit, whereas if you select KDE, you will get 4.

It was rather difficult to get KDE 3.x running on the 11.1 system. You had to choose a few options and then I ended up with GNOME somehow. I then went back and was able to get KDE 3 running just fine on 11.1. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org bis zum bitteren Ende -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Tuesday February 3 2009, Kai Ponte wrote:

The Patterns (whatever exactly they are) used during installation are somehow broken. If you select KDE 3.5 and nothing else, you can count on getting a KDE 3.5 system. But every attempt I made (and for various reasons there were about four of them) to add packages during the initial installation's package selection phase resulted in a Gnome desktop, something I cannot abide.

The only way I could find to get KDE 3.5 was to pick that option, change nothing else in the package selcetion stage, go ahead with the installation and then add all the other packages I wanted after the system was up and running.

Ahh, that makes sense. I didn't try it a second time, but I always select the patterns I want when installing. I - for example - selected various servers on that machine and deselected other items. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org bis zum bitteren Ende -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

N B Day skrev:

On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:56 -0600, Robert Paulsen wrote:

...

For me, KDE4 looks to be not worth the learning curve. Since KDE4 forces me to learn *something* new and less usable than KDE3 it seems worth considering Gnome.

I'd be interested in hearing from those who use it and what their experiences are.

I saw this coming and switched my household to Gnome when I installed 11.0 and haven't been sorry. Gnome *is* less configurable than KDE 3.x but the defaults are fairly sensible and naive users don't have any trouble being productive right away. The fact that Nautilus shows mounted USB keys on the desktop, for example, is *very* helpful to new users. I have eight to ten virtual desktops dedicated to applications all the time and do a lot in a terminal, so I don't much care if I'm using KDE, Gnome, XFCE or whatever most of the time.

I was using lots of Gnome stuff when I was running KDE as my desktop, and I now use k3b and kooka just fine under Gnome, so it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

It doesn't hurt to have a working knowledge of Gnome anyway, since it is the default for some of the other dominant distros such as Ubuntu. I found that Linux Mint worked best of all those that I tried on our antique laptop, so when we grab it out of the rubble and flee the great earthquake we'll have a familiar desktop.

A side note; N. B. Day's signature is great. How do you do that/automate it? -- ------------------------------ Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Verner Kjærsgaard Open Source Academy +45 56964223 Novell Certified Linux Professional 10035701 ------------------------------ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 31 January 2009 3:42 am, Per Jessen wrote:

Verner Kjærsgaard wrote:

...

A side note; N. B. Day's signature is great. How do you do that/automate it?

Depends on your email agent. I use Knode where I can have a signature read from file and tick the box that says "File is a program".

I saw a technique to do this a while back where a named pipe was used as the signature file and you could run any program to "feed the pipe". Played with it for a while until the thrill wore off. :) Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

N B Day said the following on 01/31/2009 09:22 AM:

It's trivial with Evolution -- sigs can call an external program, and you can have multiple sigs which call different programs depending on whom you are writing. It even has a limited ability to decide which sig to use. This is generated by a few lines of perl and a usb GPS unit.

Its a trivial problem with ANY MUA. Just tell them your signature is stored in ~/.sig A long time ago a short perl script was published that connected to a pipe that was that 'file' and each time the 'file' was read handed over a signature extracted from a 'database' - that was a flat file in the format of the 'fortune' cookies. I used that with Evolution years ago when I used Gnome. I use it with Thunderbird today. My 'database' has grown immensely! I'm sure you can google for the short perl script ... -- "Security can be viewed like a construction scenario - build part of a road, and even if and even if you don't complete it, you still have something to drive on; build part of a bridge and you have nothing! Security is like the last." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2009/1/31 James Knott :

I'm not, because I don't care for it. However, if KDE 4 keeps going the way it is, I'll be looking for another desktop. BTW, 11.1 is the first SUSE version that I'll pass updating to.

KDE 4.2 was already released. Try it, and see if you don't like the direction that KDE is going! Of course, you will have issues with KDE 4.2 just like you would with moving to Gnome or XFCE or any other desktop. Let me know what they are, and we will file bugs. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

Great list there! Agree with all of them except that my stable media player is Kaffeine. Suse just makes it so easy enabling all the codecs I need on Kaffeine and the one click install is the first thing I yearn for getting other distro's media players up to speed. LowKS http://lowkster.blogspot.com On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Eric Springer wrote:

I use and love KDE 4.2. I admit that 4.1 and 4.0 weren't worth using though.

However I don't subscribe to the whole religion. I have gnome (factory) installed too. The software I use on a regular basis, as I've judged it to be the best:

Desktop Environment: KDE Login thing: GDM Music player: Banshee (new amarok sucks) File browser: Dolphin Web browser: Firefox Email: gmail webclient Editor: kwrite (far better than gedit imo) Quick programming: Geany Instant messaging: pidgin Terminal: Konsole (significantly better than gnome terminal) Office: OO.org Movies: VLC Graphics: Gimp Quick bitmap editing: Kolour Vitualization software: Virtual Box (surpassed vmware in every regard now, except ease of creating shared folders) Graphics driver: fglrx (radeonhd still sucks, sorry =/) Password management: KeePassX Archiving: Fileroller (latest ark is trash and doesn't support drag and drop) Torrent: ktorrent Window manager: kwin (although i'm forced to use metacity when i'm in gnome.) Mapping: Google earth (rocks) PDF viewing: Okular (That gnome thing has a few too many quirks)

So yeah, quite a healthy mix here.

There still are still issue with KDE, and I still occasionally use gnome (just to be disappointed by lack of progress). KDE 4.2 really makes it worth it, and I'm looking forward to 4.3 to fix the few and minor issues I have with it.

Regards, Eric

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 1:56 AM, Robert Paulsen wrote:

...

For me, KDE4 looks to be not worth the learning curve. Since KDE4 forces me to learn *something* new and less usable than KDE3 it seems worth considering Gnome.

I'd be interested in hearing from those who use it and what their experiences are.

Thanks, Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-- Eric Springer (Erikina) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Low Kian Seong wrote:

Problem about xfce (I am using that too temporarily now) is that it does not have an applet to manage network connections. Can be a hassle when you are using it on a laptop. I am using nm-applet with it for now.

You can use the 'KNetworkManager', or 'KWiFiManager' (both of these work with KDE 3.5 installed). == Registered Linux User # 483705 @ http://counter.li.org/ openSUSE 11.1 Smolts Profile: http://www.smolts.org/client/show/?uuid=pub_b541a450-9bc1-45fd-beab-d46ee43a... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I have lots of mail in some format that KMAIL can deal with. Is there a way to transfer that to Enlightenment?

Yes. Are you saving in mbox or maildir format? They are both standard formats. I think that Thunderbird stores MBOX internally. Have you seen Kmail 1.11 in KDE 4.2? I am now switching from Thunderbird to Kmail. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

On Sunday 01 February 2009 02:20:18 G T Smith wrote:

AFAIK There is no reason that KMail should not run on a desktop other than KDE provided the right libraries are in place but (and it is a very big but) this is not something I have ever tried out.

I have, and it works fine. One of my machines here has started locking up at random times. It's on 11.1 x64 with KDE 4.2. At first, I only noticed it when I was viewing a video. Everything would stop for a while (mouse and keyboard included), then mysteriously restart. Eventually, though, the lockups started lasting long enough that I had to shut down the machine to get it going again. In order to watch the rest of the videos in that series (some MotoGP races I'd missed last year), I tried a Gnome session, and everything just worked fine. While in Gnome (no idea what version), I launched KMail, and had no problems with it at all. Same with Firefox. It knew about all my add-ons and recorded Deja-click macros. I'm just going to leave that machine running Gnome until I have the time and patience to figure out what appears to be a KDE-based problem. My apps are all there and working fine. And, truth be told, Gnome isn't bad at all. For some reason -- maybe because it seemed more familiar -- I've used KDE for a long time, but once I'd figured out a few basic differences in the way they work, I found that I can do just as well with Gnome as I can with KDE. The applications I use don't seem to care a bit, so it makes sense to use what works better. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eventually KDE4 will be fit for use... not any time soon mind you... but I can wait.

KDE 4.2 is already out. That is the version that is meant for use by end users. KDE 4.0 was the release of stable libraries, and KDE 4.1 was meant for "early adopters". KDE 4.2 is meant for end users. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه‍-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

Low Kian Seong schrieb:

...

KDE 4.2 is already out. That is the version that is meant for use by end users.

KDE 4.0 was the release of stable libraries, and KDE 4.1 was meant for "early adopters". KDE 4.2 is meant for end users.

Any ideas as when KDE 4.2 will be moved into stable? As I have understood, it will never be moved into stable, because it will never be part of any offical openSUSE version, except when KDE 4.3 will be delayed. For openSUSE 11.2 you can expect KDE 4.3.

I you want to use KDE 4.2 with openSUSE 4.1 now, your best bet is to use the KDE:KDE4:Factory:Desktop repository. But beware. Some day this will become KDE 4.3 beta during the development. This is the time, you should disable updating from this repository, if you want a stable system. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org