When I try to install some packages, such as kdebase3-SuSE-branding, I get an error about nothing providing libhd.so.16.

Add main repo for OpenSUSE 11.2 in that case. But kdebase3-SuSE-branding is not necessary package. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 07/21/2010 10:50 AM, James Knott wrote:

Илья Черных wrote:

...

You can install most of KDE3 from this repository:

http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.3/

In addition some packages missing from the 11.3 KDE3 repo (such as kdeartwork3) you can install from the 11.2 repository:

http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.2/ When I try to install some packages, such as kdebase3-SuSE-branding, I get an error about nothing providing libhd.so.16.

James Add that information here: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624154 I believe we are talking about the same thing. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

It also mentions other important facts, like that nobody still cares enough about KDE3 on openSUSE to keep on eye on the repository and fix it as needed. Several packages currently do not build on 11.3.

For example Kaffeine after the recent upstream update does not build not only for 11.3 but also for 11.2 and 11.1 because it became incompatible with the existing SUSE patch. So people either disable automatic downloading of the sources from upstream or take care so the packages build well. In this particular case maybe consider removing the patch? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

"Starting with KDE version 4.3.1 shipped with openSUSE 11.2 it is considered that KDE4 is at least an adequate replacement for KDE3 and for resource reasons KDE3 is not supported." So according to openSUSE a beta or less than beta quality product (that time) is at least an adequate replacement for a stable very usable product. Nice.

Unfortunately, this is very pointless. We've all had this arguement over and over. KDE4 was chosen because the devs decided that they needed a lot of stuff that a lot of KDE users didn't care about, so KDE3 has been dropped and only those of us who don't code evidently want to support it, so it's now a dead end. I also do not find KDE4 a useful or suitable replacement for KDE3. I've had to spend countless hours trying to figure out how to turn off garbage and find out where the things I use have went(either removed or hidden). I've pretty much given up. On a positive note, I've found LXDE a better replacement than KDE4. KDE4 is SLOW, where LXDE is as fast or faster than KDE3. While I would have prefered to keep KDE3, it's no longer a viable option. 11.0 is now depreciated so it's only a matter of time before it's no longer a viable option. That was probably the last best release with a good KDE3. 11.2 isn't bad, but I never found it as good as 11.0. Oh well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

The fact is that a change in the underlying code had to take place.

Do you think KDE4 is just a new version of KDE? It was not a change, it was replacement of KDE with another completely different desktop environment, designed completely separately. KDE4 is not KDE in any way. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Like it or not, it is still KDE.

Who said? Some people designed their new 'plasma desktop' and used their connections in KDE team to promote it under the brand of KDE to attract developers and testers. Something like promoting LXDE as a new version of Gnome.

The decision to go with KDE4 has been made and we have far to few KDE developers to maintain both KDE3 and KDE4, specially as KDE3 is dead upstreams.

Since our 11.2 release many things were improved, including crash-proof, debugging, karchive, vcards, kmail, kcommander and the help system. This is in the vanilla KDE3 branch which was many times declared 'closed', 'frozen' etc. So saying KDE is 'dead upstream' is just a pretext for doing nothing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010/7/22 Илья Черных :

...

The fact is that a change in the underlying code had to take place.

Do you think KDE4 is just a new version of KDE? It was not a change, it was replacement of KDE with another completely different desktop environment, designed completely separately. KDE4 is not KDE in any way.

Thanks, Iliya, for bringing this up. I think that this is the source of frustration for most KDE 3 users: KDE 4 is not KDE 3. KDE 3 was a great desktop, KDE 4 is just an average desktop. It was buggy and feature-incomplete for the first three minor number versions. But the KDE devs really do want to fix the outstanding issues. Let me know what they are. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 23 Jul, 2010 at 16:11:15 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 16:15 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

But the KDE devs really do want to fix the outstanding issues. Let me know what they are.

Things like Konsole no longer letting you specify the size in characters. It is holding character apps, not raster apps. So it did make sense to specify the size in that manner. (--vt_size)

Well... in frustration over the lack of progress with *this* problem ( https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152385 ) I've recently been working on a more or less idiotic workaround: The basic idea is: "Use ImageMagick to take a screenshot of a Konsole. Do some analysis on the resulting image, in order to find how many pixels the window needs for borders/scrollbars/etc, and the pixels/character." Knowing this I can then resize the Konsole (with wmctrl) to whatever *outside* dimensions neccessary in order to get a particular lines X characters. The main parts of the script are more or less done, so at this point I just need to do the 'surrounding bits' (command line parsing etc...) Like I said, the idea *is* kinda stupid, and there are a number of limitations to the whole approach, and it would be *much* *much* better if I could just fix the bug for real - but I've gotten to the point where "I want this cat skinned *now*, even if I have to use a sledgehammer..."

Or Konsole no longer having an option to keep the window after the application running in it ends. (--noclose)

konsole --hold /path/to/executable works here... jon@nx8220:~> konsole -v Qt: 4.6.3 KDE Development Platform: 4.4.93 (KDE 4.4.93 (KDE 4.5 >= 20100713)) Konsole: 2.5 /jon -- YMMV -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/07/23 16:11 (GMT+0200) Roger Oberholtzer composed:

...

On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 16:15 +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

Because I want Konsole3 behavior in Konsole4, I was told "create a theme". Well, all I know about themes is they aggravate me. Where I've stumbled onto how to disable themes, I've disabled them (KDM). Where I've stumbled onto how to revert to upstream themes, I've done that (Firefox).

I typically exit a KDE3 session with 3 Konsole tabs open, one holding top, two holding MC, two with plain bash. The MC sessions were originated by opening Konsole's main menu, which no longer has MC in it. Lord only knows how or if a mere mortal KDE3 user could figure out how to replicate this after an "upgrade" to KDE4 thrust upon him for no other reason than he needed newer versions of kernel &/or non-DTE apps like the Geckos, Google apps or OO.org, or because his old hardware gave up & needed replacing with whatever new hardware's actually available on short notice.

I managed to replicate root / mc / root mc sessions in Konsole 4. Actually, creating the correct profiles is simple (Manage Profiles...). The problem is that Konsole still has serious bug: it "forgets" the "visibility" of profiles (verified it on 11.3), that is after re-login profiles are not shown in menu. (See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=557536; turned out to be upstream bug https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=200987). Upstream list member explained how to work around the issue; procedure included into the bug report. So I have now permanent tabs with shell, mc and others. Regards, -- Mark Goldstein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

While I would have prefered to keep KDE3, it's no longer a viable option. 11.0 is now depreciated so it's only a matter of time before it's no longer a viable option. That was probably the last best release with a good KDE3. 11.2 isn't bad, but I never found it as good as 11.0.

I have 11.3 installed on one computer. While it's never been the fastest computer, KDE4 turns it into a real pig. I am planning on installing 11.3 on my firewall, but as I don't use a desktop there, KDE4 is irrelevant. I too am holding onto 11.0 for as long as possible on my other systems as I don't see KDE4 as a suitable replacement for KDE3. If I wanted a slow desktop where "features" get in the way of using a computer, I could have gone with Vista. KDE4 is, in many ways, a huge step backward, IMNSHO. Those who want eye candy crapware can always use Windows. KDE4 == "Linux Vista" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

In my opinion, if you're not moving forward, you're being left behind. Windows 7 has a very appealing look and feel to the masses. I don't have a problem with moving forward. I have a problem when we lose function, especially in exchange for eye candy.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 07/23/2010 03:12 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote:

I recommend to start a new thread on your KDE 4 issues _and_CC_me_ rather than hijacking this one. I'll triage the issues and file the bugs. Thanks.

Hi list users, Dotan, It's an old issue, but I hesitated to mention it until now. I even remember it happened once long time ago, during one of the earlier SUSE release transitions (even before kde4 appeared), and it got fixed after some time. This time, it reappeared with the KDE4, and I hoped this time it will get fixed again. But, it didn't, even with the release of openSUSE 11.3. Ok, let me explain. It is about the little tool for controling keyboard layouts. The one that sits in the tray, usualy showing national flags. Its name is kxkb. In KDE3 it is part of kdebase3 package and in KDE4 it's part of kdebase4-workspace package. Despite the name, these are different programs, and on my machine the kde3 version is in /opt/kde3/bin directory and the kde4 version is in /usr/bin directory. I can run them independently, even concurrently (on my 11.1 and 11.2 boxes). The new version is missing "include latin layout" checkbox in the configure window. Thanks to this checkbox, the old version could easily switch from any national layout to latin and back, just by pressing one key. One could have as many national layouts installed as he wants, and while being in each one of them, one could switch to latin and back just by one key press. E.g. I used left win key for toggling between any layout and latin, while having scroll lock LED for indicating alternate layout at any time. All this was configurable through "Xkb Options" tab in Configure window. The new version can not do this. "Xkb Options" are now called "Advanced", and the left win key now cycles through all my keyboard layouts, instead of just switching from the current layout to latin and back. I agree this is not big deal for most of the users around the list. But, I am sure that there are still many like me, whose national keyboard is not plain latin. Cyrillic, greek, chinese etc... I, for example have at least three layouts installed, switching heavily among them. Compared to the old one, the new kxkb is so annoying that in kde4 I had to remove it and to return to the kde3 version. Now, in 11.3, such workaround is not even possible. I am not familiar with bugzilla, so I have to kindly ask Dotan to help me with this, if possible. Hope this will be solved soon. TIA and best regards, Radule Šoškić ~rms~ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 14:04, Радуле Шошкић wrote:

On 07/23/2010 03:12 PM, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

I recommend to start a new thread on your KDE 4 issues _and_CC_me_ rather than hijacking this one. I'll triage the issues and file the bugs. Thanks.

Hi list users, Dotan,

It's an old issue, but I hesitated to mention it until now. I even remember it happened once long time ago, during one of the earlier SUSE release transitions (even before kde4 appeared), and it got fixed after some time. This time, it reappeared with the KDE4, and I hoped this time it will get fixed again. But, it didn't, even with the release of openSUSE 11.3.

Ok, let me explain.

It is about the little tool for controling keyboard layouts. The one that sits in the tray, usualy showing national flags. Its name is kxkb.

In KDE3 it is part of kdebase3 package and in KDE4 it's part of kdebase4-workspace package. Despite the name, these are different programs, and on my machine the kde3 version is in /opt/kde3/bin directory and the kde4 version is in /usr/bin directory. I can run them independently, even concurrently (on my 11.1 and 11.2 boxes).

The new version is missing "include latin layout" checkbox in the configure window. Thanks to this checkbox, the old version could easily switch from any national layout to latin and back, just by pressing one key. One could have as many national layouts installed as he wants, and while being in each one of them, one could switch to latin and back just by one key press. E.g. I used left win key for toggling between any layout and latin, while having scroll lock LED for indicating alternate layout at any time. All this was configurable through "Xkb Options" tab in Configure window.

The new version can not do this. "Xkb Options" are now called "Advanced", and the left win key now cycles through all my keyboard layouts, instead of just switching from the current layout to latin and back.

I agree this is not big deal for most of the users around the list. But, I am sure that there are still many like me, whose national keyboard is not plain latin. Cyrillic, greek, chinese etc... I, for example have at least three layouts installed, switching heavily among them. Compared to the old one, the new kxkb is so annoying that in kde4 I had to remove it and to return to the kde3 version. Now, in 11.3, such workaround is not even possible.

I am not familiar with bugzilla, so I have to kindly ask Dotan to help me with this, if possible. Hope this will be solved soon.

TIA and best regards,

Radule Šoškić

Thanks Radule. Might one of these be appropriate: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176113 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204144 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=224489 I also use three keyboard layouts (English, Hebrew, and Russian) and it drives me nuts to cascade through all of them whenever I switch. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Илья Черных wrote:

I do not know what do you mean under 'eye candy'. Is it just another word for uglines?

It's making something look pretty, without concern for function. Sort of like what happens with Apple iPhones. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 22. Juli 2010, 20:11:15 schrieb Илья Черных:

...

It's making something look pretty, without concern for function. Sort of like what happens with Apple iPhones.

I am always in support of looking pretty. I just hate how KDE4 looks.

Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as ugly and backwards as KDE3 if you like. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 11:03:54 schrieb Илья Черных:

...

Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as ugly and backwards as KDE3 if you like.

No you can't make KDE4 to look like KDE3.

Why not? The windecos etc are still available and the themes as well, you can even create a plasma theme that looks as fugly as kicker in KDE3. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 13:28:11 schrieb Илья Черных:

...

you can even create a plasma theme that looks as fugly as kicker in KDE3.

Of course, you can create a new theme. You also can write your own KDE.

Ah, now I see. You just do not want to and thus make senseless comparisons as for example comparing the usage or creation of a theme with the writing of a desktop environment. Don't blame KDE4 if you cannot be bothered to use themes and are hindered doing your work by the looks of the panels. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2010/07/24 12:30 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:

éÌØÑ þÅÒÎÙÈ wrote:

...

...

Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as ugly and backwards as KDE3 if you like.

...

No you can't make KDE4 to look like KDE3.

Why not? The windecos etc are still available and the themes as well, you can even create a plasma theme that looks as fugly as kicker in KDE3.

I had a hard time recalling words such as backwards, ugly or fugly used to describe KDE3 3 years ago, so I took a look at http://web.archive.org/web/20070613103335rn_1/www.kde.org/screenshots/ to see if they were. They weren't, so I have a hard time understanding their use now. Most women don't turn from attractive to fugly in only 3 years, and they actually do age. Corvettes, which are inanimate, don't do it either. How could KDE3 (which is inanimate) have done it? Did openSUSE 10.3 do it too? If they did, their stylists should be replaced with competent ones. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 15:25:32 schrieb Felix Miata:

On 2010/07/24 12:30 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:

...

éÌØÑ þÅÒÎÙÈ wrote:

...

...

Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as ugly and backwards as KDE3 if you like.

No you can't make KDE4 to look like KDE3.

Why not? The windecos etc are still available and the themes as well, you can even create a plasma theme that looks as fugly as kicker in KDE3.

I had a hard time recalling words such as backwards, ugly or fugly used to describe KDE3 3 years ago, so I took a look at http://web.archive.org/web/20070613103335rn_1/www.kde.org/screenshots/ to see if they were. They weren't, so I have a hard time understanding their use now.

What's not to understand about it? It looks old (clock's digits) and toyish (icons), the GUIs are crowded, the toolbars bloated and their content non- descriptive etc. The widgets on the desktop were CPU eating superkaramba hacks, there was no real transparency or naturla movement used in any of its parts. The menu as functional as a kitchen knife instead of a swiss army knife. The code was a mess, especially kicker et al. Even games were ugly and did not have proper SVG themes to adapt to different sizes properly. Lots of features missing compared to KDE4, kmail does not have customisable views, I can only display the content of one folder (working project) on my desktop, though I work on several in parallel, it does not use of my hardware e.g. GPU or multi-threading. etc Neither the internals nor the looks are something that will ever get into any art museum or hall of fame. And just to save you some time, I do not know whether KDE4's will, but in terms of code quality and looks it is better than KDE3, by far. Even to the point that it allows the user to make it look as if it was KDE3. So no matter how you argue, since it can look like KDE3 it cannot be uglier than KDE3, as stated by Илья Черных.

Most women don't turn from attractive to fugly in only 3 years, and they actually do age.

For me women and computers are completely separate things not compareable by any means or aspect, sorry, that's not my world. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 18:44:59 schrieb Илья Черных:

...

The menu as functional as a kitchen knife instead of a swiss army

knife.

Menu in KDE4 is bloated. To find something you need doing multiple clicks.

See, that's what I mean, you can get the classic menu in KDE4, but you don't know, so it's a missing feature and KDE4 is useless... And to find something in the new menu you just have to type or use the favourites and recently used apps tabs in order to get faster with less mouse movements than in the old menu. But that's the thing, you have to be open for new ways in order to make use of them and make them ease your work. Being inflexible and stuck to one way is the opposite of what drives technology forward. And of course there are other menus available for KDE4 as well, such as Lancelot etc.

...

kmail does not have customisable views

First of all, file manager in KDE4 lacks the very basic functions such as spatial view.

Basic to who? Did anyone file a bug or did anyone spend any time on implementing it? If not, might it be of no importance to the majority of users? So if nobody is willing to spend any spare time or money on it, including you, it cannot be that important or popular or necessary to get work done etc, can it? If it is to you, get some time or money and a coder but do not complain about others not spending their free time for something you think is crucial but most others do not need.

...

The code was a mess, especially kicker et al.

This is a myth by those who did not understand it.

You just make yourself look silly by telling those that maintained the code that they did not understand it. I guess that shows were your critique really comes from and that it does not make sense to state any rational arguments. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Would it be possible to create a separate list for the people griping that KDE4 is not KDE3 and BAN them from this one? I'm getting sick of this carping. -- There is no expedient to which a man will not go to avoid the labor of thinking. -- Thomas A. Edison -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 13:54 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

Would it be possible to create a separate list for the people griping that KDE4 is not KDE3 and BAN them from this one?

I'm getting sick of this carping.

+1; or wait: +2! -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 Jul 2010 20:18:50 phanisvara das wrote:

On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 13:54 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Would it be possible to create a separate list for the people griping that KDE4 is not KDE3 and BAN them from this one?

I'm getting sick of this carping.

+1; or wait: +2!

Let's simply help the OP make KDE4 look and act like KDE3. I think that's all he wants. L -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010. július 24. 19:27 napon Илья Черных írta: [snip]

...

If not, might it be of no importance to the majority of users?

Of course, it is of no importance for the majority of KDE4 users. Those for whom it is important do not use KDE4.

+1 Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

spatial view is a crime against humanity.

You're wrong. Its the browser mode which was introduced by Microsoft in Windows 98 to demonstrate that Internet Explorer cannot be separated from the system (since some people demanded Windows without IE).

When they introduced it into gnome, it generated more complaints than any other change in the history of the desktop,

Some people still dont know how to check one checkbox.

and they were forced to revert it.

Spatial mode is one of two main modes in Nautilus. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 July 2010 20:48:08 Илья Черных wrote:

...

You mean the main developer of kicker did not understand it?

Who is the main developer of Kikcer? All people behind KDE4 joined KDE team after 2005.

In other words, you don't know anything about the kde developers. Why do you make these things up? You must know that you just made that up. Did you expect anyone to believe you? The original developer of kicker was Matthias Ettrich, the founder of KDE, who I believe now is at Trolltech/Nokia doing Qt development. The maintainer/main developer from 2002 until its demise was Aaron Seigo, who coincidentally is the chief developer of plasma. His main stated reason for developing plasma in the first place was that kicker simply couldn't be fixed, the code was so bad, it had to be rewritten. For one thing, it was impossible to get it to integrate with kdesktop in a decent way. This work eventually lead to plasma Nearly all developers of KDE4 were core developers of KDE3, some of them were there since before KDE 1.0. Have opinions if you like, but please don't lie. Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 July 2010 21:10:43 Илья Черных wrote:

He joined when KDE2 was already out. His full involvement apparently began later. Yes, not in 2005 but when the most features of Kicker were already implemented.

http://behindkde.org/people/aseigo/

Yes, I believe that is what I just told you What is your point? He was the main developer of kicker from 2002 until the end of life for kicker in 2005. He (along with nearly all kde4 developers) was one of the core KDE developers when KDE3 was developed. He understands the code. It was crap. Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 July 2010, Илья Черных wrote:

...

He understands the code.

Not necessary. He said himself he could not fix it. If somebody cannot fix the code, it is evident he do not understand it.

Obviously you don't understand it either or you would fix it. All you do is complain but so far I don't see one constructive idea, or better yet contribution to the code. You do code right? Mike -- Powered by SuSE 11.0 Kernel 2.6.25 KDE 3.5 Kmail 1.9 9:47pm up 3:10, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.13, 0.15 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 July 2010 21:56:04 Илья Черных wrote:

...

Obviously you don't understand it either or you would fix it

I do not know if there is something seriously brocken in KDE3's kicker. It was a clain by KDE4's devs that they cant fix it.

Correction. It was a claim by KDE3's devs that they couldn't fix it, without a complete rewrite. This rewrite became plasma in kde4 Please stop lying Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 23:56, Istvan Gabor wrote:

2010. július 24. 22:06 napon Anders Johansson írta:

...

Correction. It was a claim by KDE3's devs that they couldn't fix it, without a complete rewrite. This rewrite became plasma in kde4

Well, I do not care of the code, whether it needed a complete rewrite or not; I accept that it was necessary to start it from scratch. But the developers should have followed KDE's tradition and at least keep base functionalities that made KDE superior to other desktop managers and made KDE so attractive.

Actually, at this point (KDE 4.5) it is up to the users to mention which KDE 3 features are currently missing. There never was a checklist to go by, only bugzilla. Let me know what is missing for you (CC me to be sure that I get it, I get tons of mail) and I'll file it. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 26/07/10 18:23, G T Smith wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

éÌØÑ þÅÒÎÙÈ wrote:

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Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as ugly and backwards as KDE3 if you like.

No you can't make KDE4 to look like KDE3.

Arrrgh!!! Die thread ... die!!!!

This KDE3<-> KDE4 noise is largely pointless as there is no likelihood of agreement between the protagonists....

Oh YES there is! BC PS :-D -- A man kept complaining about not having shoes to wear - until he saw a man with no legs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2010-07-26 at 10:47 +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Mon, 2010-07-26 at 18:28 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

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On 26/07/10 18:23, G T Smith wrote:

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...

...

Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as ugly and backwards as KDE3 if you like. No you can't make KDE4 to look like KDE3. Arrrgh!!! Die thread ... die!!!! This KDE3<-> KDE4 noise is largely pointless as there is no likelihood of agreement between the protagonists.... I disagree. An important part of the thread is how one can get back real functionality. Not just look and feel preferences, which are probably always going to be ephemeral. It no one voices concern over legitimate loss of functionality, it is doomed to be repeated. openSUSE and Novell are very active in KDE. Voicing concern to them is, I think, a valid activity.

All makes sense to me - but wouldn't it be far more effective to do with on the opensuse-kde list... where KDE people congregate? People with KDE complaints --- you will be better heard on the opensuse-kde@opensuse.org list! Help yourselves, move this thread to there. All you have to do is send a message to opensuse-kde +subscribe@opensuse.org and then start replying to messages with a "To:" of opensuse-kde@opensuse.org. -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010. július 24. 3:50 napon Sven Burmeister írta: [snip]

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I am always in support of looking pretty. I just hate how KDE4 looks.

Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as ugly and backwards as KDE3 if you like.

I guess you can not. Or: - Can you set the panel clock's font size for the time and the date independently? Can these font sizes be independent from the size of the panel? - Are removable media are presented by icons on the desktop? Can it be configured? - Is it possible to add functional manual hiding buttons to the panel? These also contribute to the general look of the desktop. If any of these have been fixed, please let me know. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

They will, as soon as you think they are worth your free time or money. If you cannot be bothered why would anyone else do you that favour? Please let me know if any of those that demand those things can can be bothered to invest something that pays for them.

The time and money were already invested, but by other people than those who broke it. Do you think somebody should invest the time second, third etc time so to find his work thown away by some new people who confusingly call themselves 'developers'? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010. július 24. 19:41 napon Sven Burmeister írta:

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 19:25:58 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

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2010. július 24. 3:50 napon Sven Burmeister írta:

[snip]

...

- Can you set the panel clock's font size for the time and the date independently? Can these font sizes be independent from the size of the panel?

- Are removable media are presented by icons on the desktop? Can it be configured?

- Is it possible to add functional manual hiding buttons to the panel?

These also contribute to the general look of the desktop. If any of these have been fixed, please let me know.

They will, as soon as you think they are worth your free time or money. If you cannot be bothered why would anyone else do you that favour? Please let me know if any of those that demand those things can can be bothered to invest something that pays for them.

1. Earlier you insisted to that you could set the look of KDE4 the same as that of KDE3. Now you agree you can not. You contradict yuorself. 2. I asked you to inform me when the abovementioned bugs/defects are fixed, not to let me know if they aren't. So your answer was absolutely unnecessary. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

you can either use it or leave it.

You are right, we do not use KDE4. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Then what the heck are you doing here? I mean other than trolling.

I do not understand what people who use KDE4 are doing it thread about KDE3. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/07/24 23:57 (GMT+0400) éÌØÑ þÅÒÎÙÈ composed:

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Then what the heck are you doing here? I mean other than trolling. I do not understand what people who use KDE4 are doing it thread about KDE3. I don't either, but why is this thread stuck here instead of on the opensuse-kde list?

+1 I'm a GNOME user and have the courtesy to use the opensuse-gnome list for GNOME specific issues. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 24 July 2010 17:23:56 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 21:57:16 schrieb Илья Черных:

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Then what the heck are you doing here? I mean other than trolling.

I do not understand what people who use KDE4 are doing it thread about KDE3.

Then you should start to read. It started because KDE3 users once again started to rant about KDE4.

No it didn't Sven !! You are wrong again....and again !! You are the one who needs to read. I am the original poster that started the thread. Read the subject line. KDE3 on 11.3. Last I knew this was an opensuse list and that is where the question was directed. Not the opensuse-kde list because it wasn't a kde question it was an opensuse question. So the people that suggest that are also wrong. I have followed the dozens and dozens of replies to the list and it has drifted far off course. And THAT is YOUR fault because when you then immediately inject your venom into whoever even utters the word KDE3. You are the reason this thread has turned into a fiasco. So why don't you just knock it off. We all know that you are a KDE4 fanboy. You use your KDE4 to your heart's content. Just let us KDE3 users alone. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 25 July 2010 05:00:43 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 25. Juli 2010, 04:42:53 schrieb Bob S:

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On Saturday 24 July 2010 17:23:56 Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 21:57:16 schrieb Илья Черных:

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Then what the heck are you doing here? I mean other than trolling.

I do not understand what people who use KDE4 are doing it thread about KDE3.

Then you should start to read. It started because KDE3 users once again started to rant about KDE4.

No it didn't Sven !! You are wrong again....and again !! You are the one who needs to read. I am the original poster that started the thread. Read the subject line. KDE3 on 11.3. Last I knew this was an opensuse list and that is where the question was directed. Not the opensuse-kde list because it wasn't a kde question it was an opensuse question. So the people that suggest that are also wrong.

I have followed the dozens and dozens of replies to the list and it has drifted far off course. And THAT is YOUR fault because when you then immediately inject your venom into whoever even utters the word KDE3. You are the reason this thread has turned into a fiasco. So why don't you just knock it off. We all know that you are a KDE4 fanboy. You use your KDE4 to your heart's content. Just let us KDE3 users alone.

You try too hard and thus missed Istvan's "Just to fan the flame..." against KDE4 post.

"Just to fan the flame...

...

http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3

I like this one:

"Starting with KDE version 4.3.1 shipped with openSUSE 11.2 it is considered that KDE4 is at least an adequate replacement for KDE3 and for resource reasons KDE3 is not supported."

So according to openSUSE a beta or less than beta quality product (that time) is at least an adequate replacement for a stable very usable product. Nice.

Istvan"

So what now, Bob?, I did not start it and yet you accused me of doing so, apology for accusing me of something I did not do? Or at least telling Istvan the same "venom injection" and "it's all your fault"...

Oh yes you did with your first post of Sat, 24 Jul 2010 03:50:41 +0200 in which you state "Have you heard of windeco and kde/plasms-themes? You can make KDE4 look as UGLY and BACKWARDS as KDE3 if you like." (caps mine)......And in your very next post you state "Ah, now I see. You just do not want to and thus make senseless comparisons as for example comparing the usage or creation of a theme with the writing of a desktop environment. Don't blame KDE4 if you cannot be bothered to use themes and are hindered doing your work by the looks of the panels." Not inflammatory huh? You call KDE3 ugly and then accuse it's users as being backward and lazy. You posted 16 like posts in this lengthy thread in which many other people participated. No Sven, No apology from me. You carry the biggest fan (for the flames) on this list. you are the author of 16 of those replies which amount to flaming the KDE3 people for their stupidity, their inability to recognize (according to you) the superiority of your product, laziness, inability to write code, and failing to provide money for it's support. You have no idea how your comments enrage people and get under their skin. Seems like a natural skill. So like I said, you go along and do your KDE4 thing and let us KDE3 people alone. End this stupid digressing thread now! Just like I am. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 23:25 +0200, Istvan Gabor wrote:

2010. július 24. 20:57 napon phanisvara das írta:

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On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 20:33 +0200, Istvan Gabor wrote:

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2. I asked you to inform me when the abovementioned bugs/defects are fixed, not to let me know if they aren't. So your answer was absolutely unnecessary.

i find this arrogant--as most of the discussion about KDE 3 -> 4.

it's ok to voice one's opinion when things are being worked out, but once it's decided where an opensource project goes, you can either use it or leave it. IMO it's the developers who own the code, not the most vocal group of users.

Well, what is arrogant is saying 'use it or leave it' when someone complains, especially if the person is a developer. And if the person is a developer for a company like Novell/openSUSE it is very unprofessional as well.

The questions I raised have been reported as bugs for a long time and many are still missing the fixes. But you do think that the adequate answer to those is "They will, as soon as you think they are worth your free time or money. If you cannot be bothered why would anyone else do you that favour?"

That post asked for the rude answer.

Istvan

[disclaimer: i'm not a developer of anything, and not employed by novell either.] but if developing or helping to develop a piece of free software incurs the moral obligation to do it the way others demand--others who don't find it necessary to invest time or money themselves--there wouldn't be any developers around; or they would keep their code secret, only available to a closed group. what i do with my free time isn't up to me? -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 23:25:26 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

Well, what is arrogant is saying 'use it or leave it' when someone complains, especially if the person is a developer. And if the person is a developer for a company like Novell/openSUSE it is very unprofessional as well.

Nope, he just stated the obvious. KDE3 has too little support to be of any relevance to openSUSE. If it had enough support, there would be a KDE3 distro that would earn some money. Complaining about something one got for free is plain arrogance.

The questions I raised have been reported as bugs for a long time and many are still missing the fixes.

You confuse bugs with features. You want features that nobody wants to spend money or time on. Not even yourself. Pay for feature x and you have every right to complain about it. Get something for free and you don't.

But you do think that the adequate answer to those is "They will, as soon as you think they are worth your free time or money. If you cannot be bothered why would anyone else do you that favour?"

That post asked for the rude answer.

Actually it asked for self-reflection. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 01:53 +0400, Илья Черных wrote:

What do you mean under 'support'? As you can see, the last commit in KDE3.5 branch was made 4 days ago: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/KDE/3.5/

during oS 11.2 i kept an installation of KDE3 parallel to 4, because at that time 4 _was_ pretty unstable. after installing 11.3 i didn't do that. previously KDE 3.5 used to run fine on oS, with all the old programs & features. is that not possible anymore, to run KDE3.5 as your main desktop? if yes, i don't know what this whole discussion is about. if no, i suggest that everybody who very much prefers 3.5 chips in with a couple bucks; it shouldn't cost too many man-hours to maintain a KDE3.5 repo, without new features or anything. -- phani -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010. július 24. 23:47 napon Sven Burmeister írta: [snip]

Nope, he just stated the obvious. KDE3 has too little support to be of >any relevance to openSUSE.

Not he but you. I meant you. Let me quote what I think would be an intelligent response to my post: QUOTE:

That was NOT my point. When I discovered that KDE 4 was not working >the way I like, I thought I come here and say it, and maybe someone >listens and implements what I would like. Of course I was ready to read >that "we are sorry, but for this or that reason we can't / don't want >to implement this".

Sounds reasonable.

But what I got for an answer (and I see others continue to get the >same, although I don't know if this answer come from developers or >from people speaking "for them", officially or not) is: it is so, >change your way of using your computer or go look some other place, you did not pay for your software so how dare you come and criticise?

I am not sure if this "you didn't not pay for it" ever comes from a contributor even less a developer. It would basically undermine the possibility of actually being contracted to work on KDE, which is probably a dream most FOSS contributors would like to live. END QUOTE; source: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde&m=126028573030192&w=2 It seems the poster of the quoted message does not know you. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Did you ever notice anyone telling you to not use KDE3?

Yes. Many times. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

That's his opinion, yet I do not see why one cannot work for FOSS and still tell people to stop their whining about things they get for free and are not willing to contribute to.

I think he just criticized OpenSUSE policy. KDE devs may say whatever they want, such as 'stop whinning' or 'eat it' or 'pay for functions you want' or whatever. OpenSUSE on the other hand declared their interntion to hear the users. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

So if KDE3 had still a similar community it could run a KDE3 repo which is a lot less work than running UNSTABLE.

Yes. They run KDE3 repo. The bad thing is that OpenSUSe removed KDE3 from their repo and removes KDE3 support from other applications such as Compiz.

openSUSE has to focus, it chose to focus on the future and maintainable code.

Do you presume KDE3 is not maintainable or what? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 25. Juli 2010, 13:10:49 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

2010. július 25. 10:52 napon Sven Burmeister írta:

...

Am Sonntag, 25. Juli 2010, 00:40:48 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

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Let me quote what I think would be an intelligent response to my post: Your first post was "Just to fan the flame...

...

http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3

I like this one:

"Starting with KDE version 4.3.1 shipped with openSUSE 11.2 it is considered that KDE4 is at least an adequate replacement for KDE3 and for resource reasons KDE3 is not supported."

The question remains: was KDE4 at that time an adequate replacement for KDE3 or not? Is it now? The problem is with the attitude of openSUSE developers: Instead of waiting until KDE4 becomes stable openSUSE released the beta KDE4 and experimented with the users. According to KDE4 developers themself KDE4 will not reach stable state (ie. remains in beta phase) until it is not reaching version 4.5. I did not put it myself, I read this on the KDE list, and it was agreed by KDE developers too.

Mind quoting the thread where KDE devs agreed that KDE 4.x was beta until the release of 4.5? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010. augusztus 2. 14:55 napon Sven Burmeister írta:

Am Sonntag, 25. Juli 2010, 13:10:49 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

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2010. július 25. 10:52 napon Sven Burmeister írta:

...

Am Sonntag, 25. Juli 2010, 00:40:48 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

...

Let me quote what I think would be an intelligent response to my post: Your first post was "Just to fan the flame...

...

http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3

I like this one:

"Starting with KDE version 4.3.1 shipped with openSUSE 11.2 it is considered that KDE4 is at least an adequate replacement for KDE3 and for resource reasons KDE3 is not supported."

The question remains: was KDE4 at that time an adequate replacement for KDE3 or not? Is it now? The problem is with the attitude of openSUSE developers: Instead of waiting until KDE4 becomes stable openSUSE released the beta KDE4 and experimented with the users. According to KDE4 developers themself KDE4 will not reach stable state (ie. remains in beta phase) until it is not reaching version 4.5. I did not put it myself, I read this on the KDE list, and it was agreed by KDE developers too.

Just for completeness:

What his source for this claim was and how

"According to KDE4 developers themself KDE4 will not reach stable state (ie. remains in beta phase) until it is not reaching version 4.5. I did not put it myself, I read this on the KDE list, and it was agreed by KDE developers too."

became

"I don't know if the poster is kde developer but as I recall his remarks were not denied by any of the kde developers who posted to that thread."

1. I don't know why this guy posted the above message to "KDE3 on 11.3 ??" thread instead of "So tried KDE4". 2. OK, probably I remembered incorrectly to what's quoted above before the 'became'. I am sorry for that. But it doesn't make the fact I started with untrue: When KDE4 was introduced as a replacement for KDE3 in openSUSE 11.2 it was not stable, it was full of bugs, etc. That time I tried it and experimented with it and got rid of it. According to the many messages on this list KDE4 is still not stable and still full of bugs and still dozens of features are missing that are available in KDE3. For me 'adequate replacement' means that it is as functional, as stable, as bug-free as the replaced one. The question remains: was KDE4 an adequate replacement for KDE3 whe openSUSE 11.2 was introduced? Based on these requirements, not. Telling people that KDE4 was an adequate replacement was misleading. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote: <snip>

From what I can tell, kde4 will never be an adequate replacement for kde3. It is still basically a big beta project where what it will look like in a year is completely unknown. And, before you start sniveling and whining that kde4 isn't a beta project, it is an official release, blah, blah blather... Go re-read:

[opensuse] Where have categories gone in Address Book?

(posted Today on this list)

kde4 is a wonderful, highly aggressive experiment in "how cool can we make a desktop look", and granted, so far the answer has been "really damn cool.' However, the Achilles' heel for kde4, has always been, and will always be that it did away with much of the hard-won triumphs of kde3's philosophy of "doing all with the absolute minimum number of key-strokes or mouse-clicks"... true computing efficiency. As just one in a myriad of examples, throwing out the konqueror backend for the woefully inadequate dolphin backend and building forward on that has sealed the fate for file management in kde4. It is... a glass castle built on clay feet.

Yes, I know progress is not without growing pains, but from a management standpoint, and from a maintaining desktop market share during a major version transition standpoint, kde4 has embraced every kiss of death it could imaginably get its lips around. I commend all the developers for their very hard work and they should be rightfully proud of all that has been learned about desktop look and appearance, job well done. But, kde4 has incorporated so much of the "just get it done" code over the past 2 years that absent a serious re-write there are issues that just can't be cured.

As we now sit 2 years and 2 months into kde4 after its first "Official, non-beta release -- 4.04 with openSuSE 11.0", I have come to the conclusion that the fundamentals of the desktop are so seriously flawed that I do not think it will ever recover as "The Desktop for Linux". I mean "My God, konqueror still won't even open up looking the same way it did when I last shut it down after 'save desktop profile -> file management' with a detailed view selected."

If kde is ever to recover as "The Linux Desktop" what I suspect will have to happen is that another re-write will have to take place where all the 'glitz and glamor' is stipped off the desktop and the code taken back to the point where true computing efficiency and logic can be recovered across the board incorporating all the fundamentals that were correct with kde before the eye-candy craze took over and also incorporating all the new and good techniques that have developed as part of kde4 to date -- as a cohesive integrated functional core before adding the glitz and glamor back on top.

Every good coding book I've ever read has always stressed the fundamental of keeping function and interface separate. Though largely aimed at portability, that lesson is every bit as true as a requirement for creating good solid desktop function -- period.

Once the strip-back and integration re-write is done and there is a solid functional core where simple things like column widths, etc. are no longer subject to the shortcomings of a desktop toolkit, then kdeX can re-emerge as a desktop that can capture the place in the Linux desktop market kde3 held. As we still have kde3 with us today, the smartest way to move forward is to continue kde3 while the kde4 experiment grinds forward and revisit the question of "what was it that made kde3 such an embraced desktop" and take the answer to that question and build kde(Next) forward from there.

In sum, I don't think there is enough duct-tape and bailing wire in Texas to make the current approach of "patch and tinker and pray" ever result in a leading desktop for linux. This isn't a slam on kde4, this is my honest opinion of where kde4 is, and what it will take to get it where it needs to be.

I just installed and playing - all day - with 11.3 and KDE 4.x (default) - and - I can't really see it is any better than is was in 11.2. As it is, I'm running 11.1 with KDE 3.5 - AND - LOVING IT. Alas, all this time, I thought KDE 3 came closest to look, feel, functionality (drag n' drop, konquerer, mouse clicks, etc) to Win XP. TOO BAD IT HAD TO BREAK (meaning KDE 4.x) Apologies up front - BUT - it really looks like the devs are trying to "keep up with the Jones" (MS) - and - "tossing out the baby with the wash water" (phrase from my grandfather) Hmmmm, IMHO, it parallels MS's major screwup with XP going to VISTA and trying to recover with Win 7. As I'm writing this email, installing 11.3 and switching to Gnome on my laptop. A hearty thank you to all for helping me make up my mind, Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing & Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home & Business user of Linux - 10 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 24. Juli 2010, 20:33:19 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

...

They will, as soon as you think they are worth your free time or money. If you cannot be bothered why would anyone else do you that favour? Please let me know if any of those that demand those things can can be bothered to invest something that pays for them.

1. Earlier you insisted to that you could set the look of KDE4 the same as that of KDE3. Now you agree you can not. You contradict yuorself.

I am not a nitpicker, that's all. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Unless you don't actually want to see the bugs fixed, so you can continue to complain that no one answers.

I think we already answered him how to use KDE3 on 11.3. Why do you say 'noone answers'? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Yes. Right click the desktop, add widgets, add 'Device Notifier' to the desktop. The difference to the classic 'icons on desktop' approach is that the icons appear corralled in the Desktop Notifier widget, so they cannot be independently placed on the desktop, and icons only appear when a drive/reader/usb port contains something. But other than that they are configurable including which apps to use with a given device and per-device automount policies.

But not in the full-screen folder view. It is also impossible to place 'my computer' or 'system storage' on the desktop. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Can you explain what you mean by that?

Something like 'removable devices' folder in KDE3 of 'Computer' in Gnome. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010/7/26 Илья Черных :

Something like 'removable devices' folder in KDE3 of 'Computer' in Gnome.

Please comment here: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=204953 But do comment! I've already filed a few bugs and posted a few more, and you are not commenting on them. I won't waste my time if you won't invest yours. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

At 21:08:18 on Thursday Thursday 22 July 2010, James Knott wrote:

Илья Черных wrote:

...

I do not know what do you mean under 'eye candy'. Is it just another word for uglines?

It's making something look pretty, without concern for function. Sort of like what happens with Apple iPhones. ;-)

Alternatively: It's attaching bells, whistles, and other quasi-functional decorative that add nothing to one's ability to accomplish one's tasks, but do obscure the real features of the OS. Often confused with "The Future Of Computing". -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Илья Черных wrote:

...

In my opinion, if you're not moving forward, you're being left behind.

Windows 7 has a very appealing look and feel to the masses.

Most of Windows users were disappointed with Windows Vista and I even know those who choose Linux because of that, only to get their hated Vista-like appearance with a new update :-\ What a disappointment.

I occasionally have the misfortune of using Vista, when helping people with their computers. Yuck. It really gets in the way of using a computer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 07/22/2010 01:35 PM, James Knott wrote:

Larry Stotler wrote:

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While I would have prefered to keep KDE3, it's no longer a viable option. 11.0 is now depreciated so it's only a matter of time before it's no longer a viable option. That was probably the last best release with a good KDE3. 11.2 isn't bad, but I never found it as good as 11.0.

I have 11.3 installed on one computer. While it's never been the fastest computer, KDE4 turns it into a real pig. I am planning on installing 11.3 on my firewall, but as I don't use a desktop there, KDE4 is irrelevant. I too am holding onto 11.0 for as long as possible on my other systems as I don't see KDE4 as a suitable replacement for KDE3. If I wanted a slow desktop where "features" get in the way of using a computer, I could have gone with Vista.

KDE4 is, in many ways, a huge step backward, IMNSHO.

Those who want eye candy crapware can always use Windows.

KDE4 == "Linux Vista"

I'm running with two monitors plugged into an NVidia GeForce 8400GS. Worked beautifully on 11.0 with KDE3. KDE4 is NON-FUNCTIONAL on this system. 1. When I put it into Xinerama mode the cursor on the second screen flickers badly and moves slowly if at all. 2. KDE4 can't put a single background image across both screens. 3. Neither KDE4 nor Gnome can put panels across both screens. In fact they can't even put any panel on the second screen. Thanks to David C. Rankin and others (sorry I don't know how to type Cyrillic), I'm now running KDE3 on 11.3. When KDE4 can handle a dual screen setup, I'll consider switching to it. -- Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 07/23/2010 09:01 AM, lynn wrote:

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I'm running with two monitors plugged into an NVidia GeForce 8400GS. Worked beautifully on 11.0 with KDE3.

The new nvidia nouveau didn't work for me either. The nvidia drivers work great though. You can add this repository:

ftp://download.nvidia.com/opensuse/11.3/

using Yast,

Or you can compile it yourself and get the latest version from here:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux-display-amd64-256.35-driver.html

(don't know what computer you have, that's the 64 bit Linux one I used)

It takes less that 5 minutes plus several hours in configuring it. But it's worth it.

Someone wrote to me off list telling me that a windows installation takes all day so that led me on to go and do it. You also learn a lot.

Good luck and hth L x

I should have mentioned that I am running with the NVidia 256 driver. Still doesn't work for me. -- Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Fri, 23 Jul 2010, lynn wrote:

On Friday 23 July 2010 15:20:58 Bob Ewart wrote:

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On 07/23/2010 09:01 AM, lynn wrote:

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...

I'm running with two monitors plugged into an NVidia GeForce 8400GS. Worked beautifully on 11.0 with KDE3.

I should have mentioned that I am running with the NVidia 256 driver. Still doesn't work for me. [..] It must be one of these:

ftp://download.nvidia.com/opensuse/11.3/

The G02-195.36.31 (x86_64) driver works well with my 8400GS on openSUSE 11.2. HTH, -dnh -- 'Tell me, what is happiness?' 'Happiness? Happiness... is to wake up, on a bright spring morning, after an exhausting first night spent with a beautiful... passionate... multi-murderess.' -- Use of Weapons, Prologue, by Iain M. Banks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bob Ewart wrote:

KDE4 is NON-FUNCTIONAL on this system.

That's a "feature" of KDE4. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org