[opensuse] Where Is Wayland?
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. IIRC X doesn't support remembering the positioning of where windows were after closing them, as does Microsoft Windows since probably what, Windows 95 or 98? I always set it to centered (Window Actions and Behavior > Advances) which works for the most part, but I'm assuming Wayland will solve most or all of these issues. But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? I thought it was supposed to be shipping already a long time ago, but every time they say "it's coming" it never happens, and the current Wayland beta on openSUSE is a total disaster and barely runs on any GPU I've tried it on. The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
I don't know, I like the Wayland I dea, it is the only thing I n Linux today that I like. I've given up on Linux for the most part already but..... Well actually my perception is that things are going to go or to keep going down the drain. But the same is true for Windows as well, you know. I really thought this computer world needed some new input and I was going to give it, but I failed (in my personal life). So now I have to watch as everything falls to pieces. Not very fun I must say. Windows is not actually improving. Windows 8 was a disaster from pretty much everyone's perspective, the only positive thing you could say about it is that it gave other developers a chance. Windows 10 fixed some of that and is well designed from a user design perspective as it regards timing and the flow of applications and their startup. For instance, this 'tacile feedback' thing, many Windows apps load in various stages and give visual feedback with every stage. So they have the splash screen thing but now in an advanced mode ;-). These apps load like an HTML page does: first comes the outline, and it is pretty fast in responding. Then it starts to load the components as you watch, all very rapidly, and even though the complete startup might take 10 seconds, you are never feeling as if you have to wait. That's what they do right in Windows 10. But the Tile interface is a mess (have you tried it on a Windows phone? It is really horrid from the perspective of someone who actually wants to use his phone). Everyone thinks it is ugly basically. And the Windows 10 user interface can corrupt very easily. The tile system can get corrupted, user profiles can get corrupted. Everything else might still be Windows 7, you know. Not complaining at this point about Windows 7. But the new UI changes they make -- including Cortana and all of that, it just stinks, it is a breach of privacy, they are selling your data, etc. etc. etc. So you can say everything you want about Linux (or OpenSUSE) but linux is actually GAINING, not getting further behind. Microsoft was in a good spot and in the position of making improvements, but they did not. If things go on the way they do (and Wayland MIGHT make the grade you know) there will mostly come a point where games and other forms of commercial apps will become easier to develop and publish on Linux. ID software started it back then by publishing Quake 3 (and I bought it commercially, I don't have the disk anymore but still the metal case) -- yes I bought a Linux game for about 120 guilders. I think. I think the interest of publishers for Linux is going to go up and I guess that is a good thing. There are various commercial games you can already install on Steam. I don't like Steam all that much, but, the development in itself is not Steam based, it is just a platform, it could run without it as well. I mean popular games, such as: Dota 2, Borderlands 2. Sure there is no Photoshop but it might come at some point, I don't know. I would expect mostly games and stuff of a similar kind. Meanwhile I will just say that I consider Linux still much uglier, most people working for it or in it or with it are tech people, they are rational people, they are not designers, there is scarcely any attention for the user design perspective, people really do not CARE about the user experience because they feel labouring on is a good thing, only the sun rises for naught and if you want to use it, you should "expect" suffering for it on end. Linux people in general and its IT tech people crowd only care about software, but not about looks, or they care about looks and then have a weird perception of it. Breeze is just crap, many people don't like it. All of the alternative Window Decorations you can install are just nonsense. There is not any good one among them. Most applications look more hideous (or less pretty) on Linux. Just look at Chrome: it cannot even get rid of the default title bar. Neither can Opera but it is less bad for Opera. Whatever you say, the windows of applications in Linux look bland. It is a lot of grey surface, for some reason this is not the case on Windows, even for the same apps. The word that describes my experience when I enter Linux coming from Windows is "visual poverty". And THE application that is most wrongly designed is Kate/Kwrite. In default themes/setup/configurations its visual balance is so rotten no one could get a grade better than a 3 or some D/E while designing it. If this was a visual design class, they would not graduate. The moment you enter Linux, visually a poverty besets you. It is like playing World of Warcraft and now you can only play Majong. It is like eating roasted beef and now you can only eat unspiced and unsalted chicken. If people would get together and determine what is important, a lot would or could change. But in general everyone who wants to improve these things is bullied, laughed at, ostracised. sdm schreef op 29-03-16 18:26:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. IIRC X doesn't support remembering the positioning of where windows were after closing them, as does Microsoft Windows since probably what, Windows 95 or 98? I always set it to centered (Window Actions and Behavior > Advances) which works for the most part, but I'm assuming Wayland will solve most or all of these issues. But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? I thought it was supposed to be shipping already a long time ago, but every time they say "it's coming" it never happens, and the current Wayland beta on openSUSE is a total disaster and barely runs on any GPU I've tried it on.
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist.
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Le 29/03/2016 19:20, Xen a écrit :
Meanwhile I will just say that I consider Linux still much uglier, most people working for it or in it or with it are tech people, they are rational people, they are not designers,
I want to make this visible. You are right, and it may be difficult to override. Free software is not free as anybody should know. No developer can really live from air and no so many can develop on free time. They need a reward. This reward is pretty obvious for programmers. Programmers of a successful application gain a fame they can use to be paid for they work if possible or for an other similar one. It's a very nice programming skills proof. But I guess it's much more difficult for designers. Designing an application, even a distribution is a very ignored task. openSUSE, for example, only have a handful of (very talented) designers. I'm not sure they gain from they work all what they deserve. Apple, for example, have probably (wild guess, be I'm pretty sure it's right) a lot of very talented designers, and given the quality of the result, they have to earn much money :-). A famous french ISP hired Philippe Starck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Starck) a well known designer to make it's internet box (http://www.freenews.fr/freenews-edition-nationale-299/freebox-9/freebox-revo...). May be we should have an "openSUSE By Philippe Starck", but I doubt we could afford it. I have problems saying exactly what I want, sorry, but I hope you got the idea jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd schreef op 29-03-16 20:55:
Le 29/03/2016 19:20, Xen a écrit :
Meanwhile I will just say that I consider Linux still much uglier, most people working for it or in it or with it are tech people, they are rational people, they are not designers,
I want to make this visible. You are right, and it may be difficult to override.
Free software is not free as anybody should know. No developer can really live from air and no so many can develop on free time. They need a reward.
This reward is pretty obvious for programmers. Programmers of a successful application gain a fame they can use to be paid for they work if possible or for an other similar one. It's a very nice programming skills proof.
Correct. At least I have always seen and thought that the main benefit was STATUS and that this is the reason open source works the way it does. It is usually not about Linux itself, it is about the guy whose name gets written on the library or application. Which is also why there is so much ego around all of these products. It doesn't matter how many people use it. It doesn't matter about how many people are happy with it. All it matters that it gets accepted into people's lives, and if they suck and if people are going to complain, well so be it, our name is on it, no one can get around it anymore.
But I guess it's much more difficult for designers. Designing an application, even a distribution is a very ignored task. openSUSE, for example, only have a handful of (very talented) designers. I'm not sure they gain from they work all what they deserve.
Well if that is your reason to work on it, maybe you are right. I do not care about status in that sense myself. But it is equally about software design right. The problem is that normally you would spend 60% of your time designing and 40% implementing. In Linux, I think people spend 10% of their time designing and 90% implementing. Just my wild guess. Writing code is something you can do on your own. Designing stuff, you have to cooperating with people and usually that is not very well possible across the internet, at least not in a culture that espouses hard work to be the only criterium of getting something done.
Apple, for example, have probably (wild guess, be I'm pretty sure it's right) a lot of very talented designers, and given the quality of the result, they have to earn much money :-).
They have like the best design team in the world. They call it their Industrial Design group. They design group is more important than their tech departments. Overall in Linux poor design is getting favoured over good design. Not just in graphics. Also in architectures and software design. It's just the way it is I guess. Apparently people want to spend their time on Linux having fun and writing code. They want to relax. They don't want to spend time designing stuff. They spend a tough day on the job and then back home they want to relax and not have to think about to stuff, and just hammer out some code. And also not to communicate with people. Just lock themselves up and get going with something?.
A famous french ISP hired Philippe Starck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Starck) a well known designer to make it's internet box (http://www.freenews.fr/freenews-edition-nationale-299/freebox-9/freebox-revo...).
May be we should have an "openSUSE By Philippe Starck", but I doubt we could afford it.
I have problems saying exactly what I want, sorry, but I hope you got the idea
jdd
Not saying all design is good design you know, even if it is by some well-known designer ;-). There is a lot of status in the design world as well. Many modern designs are just hideous by my standards. But if you have to make money with it, you can't just do that. You have to listen to your users as well. Back when on the Gnome list when they were designing the new logo for Ubuntu Gnome -- their lead designer was like "I AM THE DESIGNER AND I KNOW WHAT TO DO" "YOU HAVE NO DESIGN SKILLS SO DON'T TALK TO ME". That was what he was like. But yeah in general I don't know. Linux people don't seem to want good designs. They seem to want something that is hard to use for ordinary people so their own skills stand out more. They seem to want something that will only work for them, and want to defend a culture the way a country might defend its culture. No newcomers allowed. Everything remains the same. Because it is to our benefit. Linux people in general are just very resilient to change. I guess. And all the same currently it is changing and in a wrong direction. They apparently can't stop change, but they can render it something that goes the wrong way, by obstructing the change that would otherwise happen. They can obstruct the good change, so it will have to find another way out. Anyway I don't know how to say it anymore. Regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
sdm wrote:
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows.
Why bother comparing? If you like Windows, use it, if you like Linux, use it. I've been running my business without Windows for about ten years.
How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be?
Why does it matter? I don't see a race. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
If I am allowed to say anything: Per Jessen schreef op 29-03-16 19:21:
sdm wrote:
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. Why bother comparing? If you like Windows, use it, if you like Linux, use it. I've been running my business without Windows for about ten years.
What if you don't like any of them and want the one you like most to be improved? That's the same argument as "If you don't like this country, you don't have to live in it". It's another form of saying "GTFO if you don't care about us". It is a selfish act to say something like that. The person who says that is usually fully aware that life somewhere else is not going to be better. If you never can say anything bad about a situation, the situation will not improve. If you take this attitude broad, the situation there will not improve either. This attitude means nothing will ever get better. It is a sort of crossing your fingers and pray that somewhere there is already something you like (completely) and if this place doesn't exist, you're not allowed to do anything about it either. Because people don't want it to be changed? People don't want to be taken out of their comfort zone? I don't know. Anyone who complains wants to do something about it, and anyone who complains is a creative person, you know that. But by stifling the complaint, you are stifling the creativity, and that is apparently what people really want: to make sure nothing real ever happens. So as a rebuttal (and you don't have to answer to me, I'm sure the person will respond himself): WHY CRITICISE not only what he says, but also his act of saying it? Why are you trying to disrupt what he does, or rather, why are you trying to place doubt in it, why are you questioning his motives, why are you assuming bad motives here? Why are you promoting a sense of this person being wrong about what he really wants? Why are you saying "what you want is probably going to not be a very good thing"?. Why are you (and people do this constantly here, in this Linux world of ours, not just here on OpenSUSE, everywhere) --- why do you people constantly bug everyone who tries to change something? Why are you constantly trying to break down every initiative if it starts with the slightest of a negative appraisal of the current state of affairs? Why do you do that? WHY? People who say negative stuff do that to WAKE PEOPLE UP. Would you rather be asleep? Linux is that place where everything you do gets torn down.
How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Why does it matter? I don't see a race.
It matters because the comparison reveals the field, the scope, the dimension. If there is something that weighs 10 grams, and something else weights a kilogram, you now know that weighing a kilogram is also a possibility in this universe of ours. Then, because it weighs a kilogram and you know about it, you can also know about the advantages and disadvantages of being that. Then, you can see weighing a kilogram might bring boons that you might consider very helpful, or very attractive, or very useful, and you might realize they improve your life. So it matters because improving Linux might improve a lot of people's lives. Of course you know this and you are just kidding right. I mean, the answer is so obvious that you can't really be serious in asking the question. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Xen wrote:
If I am allowed to say anything:
Per Jessen schreef op 29-03-16 19:21:
sdm wrote:
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows.
Why bother comparing? If you like Windows, use it, if you like Linux, use it. I've been running my business without Windows for about ten years.
What if you don't like any of them and want the one you like most to be improved?
Then you've got to go there and try to help/promote it.
That's the same argument as "If you don't like this country, you don't have to live in it". It's another form of saying "GTFO if you don't care about us". It is a selfish act to say something like that. The person who says that is usually fully aware that life somewhere else is not going to be better.
He ought to complain and then start helping improving his own situation.
Anyone who complains wants to do something about it, and anyone who complains is a creative person, you know that. But by stifling the complaint, you are stifling the creativity, and that is apparently what people really want: to make sure nothing real ever happens.
So as a rebuttal (and you don't have to answer to me, I'm sure the person will respond himself):
WHY CRITICISE not only what he says, but also his act of saying it?
Because ANY COMPARISON with Windows is pointless. Maybe 10-15 years ago, but not anymore. Linux is alive and kicking, running most of the world's servers, not to mention the smartphones, and we have multiple desktop environments to choose from. Today you have little reason for staying with Windows if you don't want or have to. There _are_ exceptions, but they are few and far between. (I'm ignoring games).
Why are you trying to disrupt what he does, or rather, why are you trying to place doubt in it, why are you questioning his motives, why are you assuming bad motives here?
I'm doing neither, I just think measuring Linux against Windows belongs in the past.
Why are you promoting a sense of this person being wrong about what he really wants? Why are you saying "what you want is probably going to not be a very good thing"?.
I don't recall saying that.
Why are you (and people do this constantly here, in this Linux world of ours, not just here on OpenSUSE, everywhere) --- why do you people constantly bug everyone who tries to change something?
I apologise, I did not realise the OP was trying to change something. There is plenty of change going on in openSUSE, often much more than I would like, but I have to accept it.
Why are you constantly trying to break down every initiative if it starts with the slightest of a negative appraisal of the current state of affairs? Why do you do that? WHY?
Which initiative are you referring to here?
How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be?
Why does it matter? I don't see a race.
It matters because the comparison reveals the field, the scope, the dimension.
Only when you believe Linux and Windows are actually in a competition together. I think they once were, but not any more. TBH, I don't think this discussion belongs here, if you want to continue, I would recommend taking it up on opensuse-offtopic. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.3°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 11:00 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
Xen wrote:
At this point the best we can all do is test Wayland and report bugs: Here are the downloads to the ISO's: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Medias/images/iso/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen schreef op 29-03-16 20:00:
Xen wrote:
What if you don't like any of them and want the one you like most to be improved? Then you've got to go there and try to help/promote it.
Promoting something is not a thing you do when you know the system doesn't even cut it for you, let alone people who are less invested in it or who are worse with computers. What you do do is try to get the people who are obstructing improvement, to see that they are doing so. Also, the moment anyone or any number of people or groups says "You are right, this is pretty bad" you are then in the position to propose changes or talk about improvements. Unless and until anyone actually agrees with what you see, and agrees that something could need or use improvement, until that time you are just an island in the sea with no connections to anyone. So you can see this attempt to talk about this and to get 'heads rolling' as an attempt to gather and garner support for the discussion of an idea of improvement. That doesn't have to be a concrete idea at this point, but any sense of recognition of WHAT'S SO will lead to further discussion about what needs to, or can change. The problem is that people continuously try to sabotage the the propositions of "WHAT'S SO" so that the people who make these statements about "WHAT'S SO" never get the support to talk on about what they would like to see happen instead. And because of this overall lack of recognition of the CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS or its acknowledgment thereof, nothing ever improves and as it was just said, it stagnates. Complaint precedes improvement because complaint is that thing that says "hello? please see this?!". And if people are unwilling to see WHAT'S SO (again) they are also not going to go anywhere else. 1. Complain 2. Get heads looking in the same direction 3. Start to discuss improvement 4. Implement it (or design it first) You people (I mean Linux people in general, in lots of places) sabotage point 1, and they also sabotage point 2, and hence they sabotage point 3 and 4 too. Apparently because they don't want 4 to happen.
That's the same argument as "If you don't like this country, you don't have to live in it". It's another form of saying "GTFO if you don't care about us". It is a selfish act to say something like that. The person who says that is usually fully aware that life somewhere else is not going to be better. He ought to complain and then start helping improving his own situation.
Well but his own situation is not disjunct from, or not-disseminated from, the overall system that he is a part, of, right? His own situation MIGHT BE (in this case, but I don't want to make it about OpenSUSE at all) --- OpenSUSE. His own situation MIGHT BE ...KDE. That IS his own situation. Perhaps it is. So what you're saying he should do, maybe he's already doing. And then people go and bug that. This is actually my second response to this email. Mistake. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 10:37 AM, Xen wrote:
What if you don't like any of them and want the one you like most to be improved?
That's the same argument as "If you don't like this country, you don't have to live in it". It's another form of saying "GTFO if you don't care about us". It is a selfish act to say something like that.
Wait, wait, wait.... No its not at all the same as saying GTFO if you don't like the country. There are dozens of Linux implementations, including some that try to replicate windows as close as possible. Zorin and PCos and about 5 more. And adding a prior placement option for windows in KDE isn't impossible because its already there, just under a different name. If you ALWAYS want KCalk in the to remember its last position, right click the title bar, select More actions, Special Window Settings, and Then set Position to *"Remember"*. If you just want your session restored the way you left it , that option is documented in my other post. So the OP is just patently WRONG about the feature being missing, and Per is not wrong about giving the user freedom to stay in Windows, or using any choice of Linux desktop environments. And your rant is just far off the mark, given these things already exist but the OP never bothered to look around in KDE. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/03/2016 20:26, John Andersen a écrit :
If you ALWAYS want KCalk in the to remember its last position, right click the title bar, select More actions, Special Window Settings, and Then set Position to *"Remember"*.
there are so many setups, in so many places... thanks describing this one, I missed it (at some time in the past it was default). jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 11:34 AM, jdd wrote:
Le 29/03/2016 20:26, John Andersen a écrit :
If you ALWAYS want KCalk in the to remember its last position, right click the title bar, select More actions, Special Window Settings, and Then set Position to *"Remember"*.
there are so many setups, in so many places... thanks describing this one, I missed it (at some time in the past it was default).
jdd
In truth, I seldom have any reason to force a location on any window or app. By the way, any setting made in *"More Options"* ends up being available for editing in one place in *Windows Behavior / Windows Rules*, so you don't have to hunt them down and edit them one by one. But there are a lot of choices, including activities that might eliminate the need for opening a lot of separate application windows. 1) Windows Behavior settings ( 2) Start Up Shut down behavior 3) More Actions - Windows settings 4) Suspend/Resume 5) Activities Of these, I've found number 1 and number 4 to handle just about all my needs. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 11:26 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 10:37 AM, Xen wrote:
What if you don't like any of them and want the one you like most to be improved?
That's the same argument as "If you don't like this country, you don't have to live in it". It's another form of saying "GTFO if you don't care about us". It is a selfish act to say something like that. Wait, wait, wait.... No its not at all the same as saying GTFO if you don't like the country.
There are dozens of Linux implementations, including some that try to replicate windows as close as possible. Zorin and PCos and about 5 more.
And adding a prior placement option for windows in KDE isn't impossible because its already there, just under a different name. If you ALWAYS want KCalk in the to remember its last position, right click the title bar, select More actions, Special Window Settings, and Then set Position to *"Remember"*. If you just want your session restored the way you left it , that option is documented in my other post.
So the OP is just patently WRONG about the feature being missing, and Per is not wrong about giving the user freedom to stay in Windows, or using any choice of Linux desktop environments.
And your rant is just far off the mark, given these things already exist but the OP never bothered to look around in KDE.
I was talking about defaults, you apparently missed that in the OP, it's actually you who is wrong because you're going off on stupid rants that nobody really gives a crap about.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 12:14 PM, sdm wrote:
So the OP is just patently WRONG about the feature being missing, and Per is not wrong about giving the user freedom to stay in Windows, or using any choice of Linux desktop environments.
And your rant is just far off the mark, given these things already exist but the OP never bothered to look around in KDE.
I was talking about defaults, you apparently missed that in the OP, it's actually you who is wrong because you're going off on stupid rants that nobody really gives a crap about..
I missed it in the OP because you NEVER mentioned the word "Defaluts" in the OP. You've been complaining about missing features and I've told you 5 places to find them and then you suddenly claim nobody cares about these features that you started this thread complaining about. Which is it? -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
John Andersen schreef op 29-03-16 21:28:
On 03/29/2016 12:14 PM, sdm wrote:
I was talking about defaults, you apparently missed that in the OP, it's actually you who is wrong because you're going off on stupid rants that nobody really gives a crap about..
I missed it in the OP because you NEVER mentioned the word "Defaluts" in the OP.
You've been complaining about missing features and I've told you 5 places to find them and then you suddenly claim nobody cares about these features that you started this thread complaining about.
Which is it?
It was pretty clear this thread was not a complaint about any one feature. That's what you people do, you always think it is about the little things. And that if this tiny little thing gets solved, then suddenly everything is going to be alright again. Instead, this little thing probably opens up to a whole lot of other things that he hasn't mentioned. But this is not a crash course in all the things that are wrong with Linux or that could be improved, and he's not writing a book here. If he was, he would seek to publish it elsewhere and then draw attention to that. There is not really any reason to not write a book, but just saying. This thread was about Wayland and the overall state of affairs in Linux desktop. And yes many times you won't be able to find some feature. Do you think it is a good spending of your time, or waste of your time I might say, to start discussion threads about every little thing you need to find out about? Does that not spell out "unintuitive" for you? Why should using a computer be a study without end? And maybe this person still won't like the feature or features you have pointed to. Maybe they don't cut it for him. Does he have a right to disagree with you? Many times people will say "oh, but you can just do this this or that" and I'd be like "that doesn't even come NEAR what I need". And most usually that would be in a thread where I talk about wanting to design or implement something. And then people try to talk me out of it. Each and every time. So my rant (not sure what you are referring to here) is off the mark? Not entirely and not at all. This attitude is pervasive and it prevailant, is what I'm saying. It's the attitude that says "Linux is already good enough for everyone". It is the attitude that says "Don't try to change my system, I (seem to) like it". It is the attitude that says "If you want to do something for your own, do it elsewhere". 99% of times you propose something, it is getting burned down. This guy was just getting real with you people. And you usually aren't with yourself, and you aren't with Linux. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
John Andersen schreef op 29-03-16 20:26:
On 03/29/2016 10:37 AM, Xen wrote:
What if you don't like any of them and want the one you like most to be improved?
That's the same argument as "If you don't like this country, you don't have to live in it". It's another form of saying "GTFO if you don't care about us". It is a selfish act to say something like that. Wait, wait, wait.... No its not at all the same as saying GTFO if you don't like the country.
Look. I just made a post to the ubuntu-developer-discussion thing. I talked about some concept I would like to see discussed. The person who first responded basically told me to go elsewhere because he thought (or at least said) that Ubuntu would not be a good place for it. If you are in IRC chat channels, at least for Kubuntu, and you say even the slightest thing that is not completely in agreement (according to someone) with the topic or subject of the channel, some nitwit prick will come and tell you you have to go elsewhere. For instance, I made some comments about Steam where I asked for someone who might know a thing. I was not aware of any Steam related channel. So I ask whether there is anyone who has a bit of experience. Then they say "don't ask to ask, ask" and I say (more or about) "no, I'm not going to be wasting my time doing that, if there's anyone who can help me, that's fine, but if there is no one anyway, I am not going to stay here indefinitely until after 3 hours maybe someone responds. If there is someone here NOW that might have the answer, that person will probably respond, if he/she is willing to talk. Then asking my question will have a bigger chance of succes, and I do not need to spill any personal data or whatever to people who don't care anyway". Then someone responds (not the nitwit) and we talk a bit. Yes there was a nice person, and no that person did not have a problem with me asking for anyone who could know. So the nitwit was wrong on all occasions. And he was wrong on one more: The VERY MOMENT I mentioned using 16.04 (it is in Beta freeze, so it is just very close to release) that person (the same nitwit) directed me to #ubuntu+1, which is like the channel for unreleased versions. It is like the beta channel. However as it turned out my problem was related to an nVidia driver that was also in 15.10. My problem had no relevance to the beta. The beta channel was not the right channel for my question. The mere MENTION of 16.04 (in this case) will have some idiot who is not a moderator try to push you away. You can be talking about a freaking BASH script (for all I care, you could be) and if you mention using it on 16.04, they will direct you away or try to get you to shut up. The moron tried to call for ops multiple times as I was trying to get him to shut up, but no one responded and I could have my say anyway. Not that it was much help, they did direct me to #ubuntu-steam eventually, but I found my answer on the forum of the game itself. They also very often try to shove you into #kubuntu-offtopic if you merely talk about programming or personal stuff in a channel dedicated to development (ironically) which in that case was #kubuntu-devel. I don't know what they call them apart from a "wannabe mod" but people generally despise these kind of people. There are just a lot of people in the Linux world that will always tell you to do it elsewhere (but not on my turf).
There are dozens of Linux implementations, including some that try to replicate windows as close as possible. Zorin and PCos and about 5 more.
It is not about replicating Windows, but I'm sure you've understood.
So the OP is just patently WRONG about the feature being missing, and Per is not wrong about giving the user freedom to stay in Windows, or using any choice of Linux desktop environments.
Well I don't care about this particular topic, but as he said, defaults do matter. The idea or the answer that if you dig hard enough and far enough, you will eventually come up with something, just doesn't cut it. Perhaps this particular example is a bit off the mark, I don't know. But you can also assume that we might learn a lot of what he thinks if we just asked him, right? ;-). However I cannot really be the one to ask. I probably know what he is going to say. The thing with questions is that they can only be answered after they've been asked, because asking implies an interest, that might be absent if the question is never even posed or considered.
And your rant is just far off the mark, given these things already exist but the OP never bothered to look around in KDE.
Well in that case there is an answer to everything including "hire 20 people for 24 hours per week to design your feature. Then you won't have to complain". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
This is just barely scratching the tip of the iceberg about all the problems with X, including that the current devs admit that they don't even understand the code base to X anymore because there's so many workarounds and hacks in it, revolving around trying to continuously breath life into a codebase designed for small resolutions and a monitor that printed green text on the screen. So, here's some reading outlining the issues with X, Wayland, and more: http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.curren... 1. X system (current primary video output server in Linux): * X.org is largely http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2969319&cid=40603337 outdated http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/04/06/0538250/update-on-wayland-and-x11-su..., unsuitable http://lanyrd.com/2013/linuxconfau/scctrd/ and https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=x_wayland_situation&num=1 even http://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12#Errors.2C_Oversights_and_Omissions very http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/01/why-screen-lockers-on-x11-cann... much http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2014-December/002500.html insecure http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/faq.html#no-ctl-alt-bs for modern http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3041123&cid=40955973 PCs and applications. * No high level, /stable, sane (truly forward and backward compatible) and standardized/ API for developing GUI applications (like core Win32 API - most Windows 95 applications still run fine in Windows 10 - that's *20 years of binary compatibility*). Both GTK and Qt (incompatible GTK versions 1, 2, 3 http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ and incompatible Qt versions 2, 3, 4, 5 just for the last decade) don't strive to be backwards compatible. * ! Keyboard shortcuts handling for people using local keyboard layouts is broken https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=865 (this bug is now *10 years old*). * ! X.org doesn't automatically switch https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14255 between desktop resolutions if you have a full screen application with a custom resolution running - strangely some Linux developers oppose https://mail.gnome.org/archives/wm-spec-list/2012-October/msg00003.html to the whole idea of games on Linux. But since Linux is not a gaming platform and no one is interested in Linux as a gaming platform this problem importance is debatable. Valve has released Steam for Linux and they are now porting their games for Linux - but that's a drop in the bucket. * ! X.org doesn't restore gamma (which can be perceived as increased brightness) settings on application exit. If you play Valve/Wine games and experience this problem run `xgamma -1` in a terminal. You can thank me by clicking the ad at the top of the page ;-) * ! Scrolling in various applications causes artifacts https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=25497. * ! X.org allows applications to exclusively grab https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21141 keyboard and mouse input. If such applications misbehave you are left with a system you cannot manage, you cannot even switch to text terminals. * ! Keyboard handling in X.org is broken by design - when you have a pop up or an open menu, global keyboard shortcuts/keybindings don't https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344059 (GTK) work https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=70063 (QT). * It's fixed as for Qt5 - hopefully most Qt4 applications will be ported to Qt5: another keyboard handling issue is that in many situations applications' shortcuts do not work https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-32908 (Qt4) when you have a different than the English US keyboard layout. * ! For VM applications keyboard handling is incomplete http://askubuntu.com/questions/54814/how-can-i-ctrl-alt-f-to-get-to-a-tty-in... and passing keypresses to guest OS'es is outright broken https://www.berrange.com/posts/2010/07/04/more-than-you-or-i-ever-wanted-to-.... * ! X.org architecture is inherently insecure - even if you run a desktop GUI application under a different user in your desktop session, e.g. using sudo and xhost, then that "foreign" application can grab any input events and also make screenshots of the entire screen. * Adobe Flash Player has numerous problems under Linux (unsupported video acceleration decoding and rendering http://blogs.adobe.com/penguinswf/2008/05/flash_uses_the_gpu.html, video tearing, crashes and frames dropping http://itvision.altervista.org/files/flash.png at 100% CPU usage even on high end systems). In 2012 Adobe announced http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplayer/2012/02/adobe-and-google-partnering-for-f... that Adobe Flash player wouldn't be supported any longer for any browsers other than Google Chrome. *Edit 2016*: no, this issue has not been resolved, it's just Adobe Flash Player which is rapidly becoming irrelevant. * ! X.org server currently has no means of permanently storing and restoring settings changed by the user (xrender settings, Xv settings, etc.). NVIDIA and ATI proprietary drivers both employ custom utilities for this purpose. * !! X.org has no means of providing a tear free experience, it's only available if you're running a compositing window manager in the OpenGL mode with vsync-to-blank enabled. * !! X.org is not multithreaded https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44&t=1390. Certain applications running intensive graphical operations can easily freeze your desktop (a simple easily reproducible example: run Adobe Photoshop 7.0 under Wine, open a big enough image and apply a sophisticated filter - see your graphical session die completely until Photoshop finishes its operation). * ! There's currently no way to configure https://bugs.launchpad.net/gtk/+bug/124440 mouse scroll http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2010-September/012517.html speed/acceleration under X.org. Some mice models scroll erratically https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/971321 under X.org. * There's no way to replace/upgrade/downgrade X.org graphics drivers on the fly (simply put - to restart X server while retaining a user session and running applications). * No true safe mode http://libv.livejournal.com/22968.html for the X.org server (likewise for KMS - read below). Misconfiguration and broken drivers can leave you with a non-functional system, where sometimes you cannot access text virtual consoles to rectify the situation (in 2013 it became almost a non-issue since quite often nowadays X.org no longer drives your GPU - the kernel does that via KMS). * Adding custom modelines in Linux is a major PITA. * ! X.org totally sucks http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2014-January/040139.html (IOW doesn't work at all in regard to old applications) when it comes to supporting tiled displays, for instance modern 4K displays (Dell UP3214Q, Dell UP2414Q, ASUS PQ321QE, Seiko TVs and others). This is yet another architectural limitation. * !! HiDPI support is pretty much http://lwn.net/Articles/619784/ non-existent http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2014/07/fonts-in-current-era.html. * ! Fast user switching (and also concurrent users' sessions) under X.org works very badly and is implemented as a dirty hack: for every user a new X.org server is started. It's possible to login twice under the same account while not being able to run many applications due to errors caused by concurrent access to the same files. Fast user switching is best implemented in KDE followed by Gnome. Related problems: 1) Concurrently logged in users cannot access the same USB flash drive(s). 2) There are reports http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.curren... that problems exists with configuring audio mixer volume levels. 2. Wayland: * !! Applications (GUI toolkits) must implement their own windows shadowing, because Wayland decorator has no access to applications sub-windows. This issue seems to be resolved http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2015/12/server-side-decorations-coming.... * !! Wayland works through rasterization of pixels which brings about two very bad critical problems which will never be solved: Firstly, forget about performance/bandwidth efficent RDP protocol (it's already implemented but it works by sending updates of large chunks of the screen, i.e. a lot like old highly inefficient VNC), forget about OpenGL pass through, forget about raw compressed video passthrough. In case you're interested all these features work in Microsoft's RDP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Desktop_Protocol#Features. Secondly, forget about proper output rotation/scaling/ratio https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/1zt497/i_am_concerned_about_wayland... change. * !! Applications (GUI toolkits) must implement their own fonts antialiasing - there's no API for setting system wide fonts rendering. What??! Most sane and advanced windowing systems work exactly this way - Windows, Android, Mac OS X. In Wayland all clients (read applications) are totally independent. * !! Applications (GUI toolkits) must implement their own DPI scaling. * The above issues are actually the result of not having one unified graphical toolkit/API (and Wayland developers will not implement https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93794 it). Alas, no one is currently working towards making existing toolkits share one common configuration for setting fonts antialiasing, DPI scaling and windows shadowing. At least in theory these issues can be easily solved, in practice we already have three independent toolkits for Wayland (GTK3/Qt5/Enlightenment). * !! Applies to the X server/protocol as well: neither X.org, nor Wayland offer a way to extend/modify windows title bars' and File Open/Save dialogs. This is a very powerful feature which can be very useful in many situations. Again it's a result of the fact that there's no unified toolkit and no unified window manager (or protocol). 3. Font rendering (which is implemented via high level GUI libraries) issues: * ! White or light-colored fonts antialiasing on dark backgrounds (without Infinality patches which are yet to be included by default by any distro) is horrible. * ! ClearType fonts are not properly supported out of the box (for a test I compiled FreeType 2.4.11 with ClearType technology but the results were abysmal). Even though the ClearType font rendering technology is now supported, you have no means to properly configure/tune it. * Quite often default fonts look ugly http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3253653&cid=41995395, due to missing good (catered to the LCD screen - subpixel RGB full hinting) default fontconfig settings (this quite unpopular website alone gets over 20% of its visitors seeking to fix bad fonts (rendering) in Linux). * Web fonts under Linux often http://itvision.altervista.org/files/webfonts-centos.png look http://itvision.altervista.org/files/webfonts-gplus.png horrible https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/Bhm5fX7YaHW in old distros. * Fonts antialiasing is very difficult to implement properly when not using GTK/Qt libraries (Opera had been struggling with fonts antialiasing for a year before they made it work correctly, Google Chrome had fonts rendering broken http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=96926 for eight months). * (Getting better but we're not yet there) By default most distros come without good or even Windows compatible fonts. * Fonts antialiasing settings cannot be applied on-the-fly under many DE. * By default most distros disable good fonts antialiasing due to patents - more or less resolved in 2012 (however even in 2016 there are still many distros which forget/refuse to enable SPR in freetype2). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 09:26 AM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window.
Instead of ranting and stomping off in protest, why not just go to desktop settings select Windows Behavior, then Windows Behavior again, and select some other placement scheme, such as "Under the Cursor"? Placing things "where you want" is asking for a sense of omniscience that, quite frankly, I don't want any computer to achieve. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 10:34 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 09:26 AM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. Instead of ranting and stomping off in protest, why not just go to desktop settings select Windows Behavior, then Windows Behavior again, and select some other placement scheme, such as "Under the Cursor"?
Placing things "where you want" is asking for a sense of omniscience that, quite frankly, I don't want any computer to achieve.
Because with your attitude, Linux is going to stay at 1% market share, and never said I'm stomping off, nor am I ranting. It's exactly attitudes like your which are the very problem with Linux on the desktop and why it stagnates, practically going nowhere -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
sdm schreef op 29-03-16 19:36:
Because with your attitude, Linux is going to stay at 1% market share, and never said I'm stomping off, nor am I ranting. It's exactly attitudes like your which are the very problem with Linux on the desktop and why it stagnates, practically going nowhere
+1. These attitudes try to kill anything that improves, or anything that brings an idea of an initiative about anything that would actually work and get things to be more attractive or to become more functional from a general viewpoint of the average computer user having normal human needs. People don't want other people using Linux, so they try to keep Linux just good enough for themselves but too rotten for anyone else that they don't want it to be used by. It's just very selfish but that's what it is I guess. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 29/03/2016 19:41, Xen a écrit :
People don't want other people using Linux, so they try to keep Linux just good enough for themselves but too rotten for anyone else that they don't want it to be used by. It's just very selfish but that's what it is I guess.
it's funny to read this, because I remember discussions, 20 years ago (don't make me younger :-()), where some people said "Linux is not for users and don't have to be!". IMHO it was and it's always a big error. The only way we have to get a working linux is to have as large a user base as we can. but the fact is: *you* who wants something, you have to find a way to make it happen. Either pay for it, make a syndicate to gather money, make it yourself... or convince as many people as you can! jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Le 29/03/2016 19:41, Xen a écrit :
People don't want other people using Linux, so they try to keep Linux just good enough for themselves but too rotten for anyone else that they don't want it to be used by. It's just very selfish but that's what it is I guess.
it's funny to read this, because I remember discussions, 20 years ago (don't make me younger :-()), where some people said "Linux is not for users and don't have to be!".
IMHO it was and it's always a big error. The only way we have to get a working linux is to have as large a user base as we can.
I agree, but on the server side Linux has already won the race, IMHO. The desktop side is still difficult, and does depend on a lot of resource-intensive development which I expect is difficult to round up. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.5°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 10:36 AM, sdm wrote:
On 03/29/2016 10:34 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 09:26 AM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. Instead of ranting and stomping off in protest, why not just go to desktop settings select Windows Behavior, then Windows Behavior again, and select some other placement scheme, such as "Under the Cursor"?
Placing things "where you want" is asking for a sense of omniscience that, quite frankly, I don't want any computer to achieve.
Because with your attitude, Linux is going to stay at 1% market share, and never said I'm stomping off, nor am I ranting. It's exactly attitudes like your which are the very problem with Linux on the desktop and why it stagnates, practically going nowhere
Pretty sure it was YOU who said this:
But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? I thought it was supposed to be shipping already a long time ago, but every time they say "it's coming" it never happens, and the current Wayland beta on openSUSE is a total disaster and barely runs on any GPU I've tried it on.
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist.
If that's not stomping off, I don't know what is. Its attitudes like yours, that any deviation from Windows is some how wrong and inferior. Its these silly demands for tiny missing features, (or more likely a failure to RTFM, or even experiment with what Linux has) that holds linux at 1%. You run around poisoning everyone within ear shot that linux is unusable because you can't find one tiny feature that windows has. That behavior sends more people running away from linux than anything else. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
John Andersen schreef op 29-03-16 19:48:
Pretty sure it was YOU who said this:
But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? I thought it was supposed to be shipping already a long time ago, but every time they say "it's coming" it never happens, and the current Wayland beta on openSUSE is a total disaster and barely runs on any GPU I've tried it on.
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist. If that's not stomping off, I don't know what is. Its attitudes like yours, that any deviation from Windows is some how wrong and inferior.
Its these silly demands for tiny missing features, (or more likely a failure to RTFM, or even experiment with what Linux has) that holds linux at 1%. You run around poisoning everyone within ear shot that linux is unusable because you can't find one tiny feature that windows has. That behavior sends more people running away from linux than anything else.
Stomping off means walking away. This person was not going anywhere. You are just making things up. You keep lying about what people say. The point is never "any deviation" from Windows. Windows is only used as a point of reference to indicate what also exists. The point is not to become windows. That is what you make of it because you are apparently invested in being not-Windows. People who even use Linux are not Windows-invested people, for the most part. They are usually equally invested in Linux, and probably usually more so. If you see something good IN windows and you then say you want it, that doesn't mean you want it because it is Windows, no you want it because it is GOOD. It has nothing to do with Windows. Windows just has it. In a different world, something else might have it, or might want it, or whatever. Then your argument would be "any deviation from X, Y and Z" is some how wrong and inferior? The only reason your argument seems to make sense is because Windows just has this large market share and it is the point of reference for almost everything, except when OS X comes into play. But it's not about Windows. We don't care about Windows. Windows is not something you can love. There are just not very many Windows fanboys who actively profess that thing, except maybe some 'professionals' who work in that field and got their MS certified Engineer thing or whatever. On the contrary there are a lot of those Linux fanboys..... and Mac also. There is no need to invest in Windows because it works like that. Your investment is usually a bit of money. Other than that it means nothing to you. Except the things it provides. And you keep thinking it is about the product. No, it is not about the product. It is what about the product offers. Real tangible stuff. So don't mistake "Windows fanboyism" with "Linux fanboyism" and don't compare "having an attitude about Windows" with "wanting what Windows offers, while also getting what Linux offers". You are really deeply mistaken about these things, from my perspective. Anyway, signing out.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Xen wrote:
The only reason your argument seems to make sense is because Windows just has this large market share and it is the point of reference for almost everything, except when OS X comes into play.
Why even bother comparing? You are free to choose any of the three. People who choose Macs usually don't look elsewhere, people who choose Windows usually don't look elsewhere, and people who choose Linux usually don't look elsewhere. Not in my limited experience anyway.
But it's not about Windows. We don't care about Windows.
Good, then why bring it up?
So don't mistake "Windows fanboyism" with "Linux fanboyism" and don't compare "having an attitude about Windows" with "wanting what Windows offers, while also getting what Linux offers".
You are really deeply mistaken about these things, from my perspective. Anyway, signing out.
I have absolutely no idea what it is you've been on about, Xen. Safe travels. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Xen wrote:
The only reason your argument seems to make sense is because Windows just has this large market share and it is the point of reference for almost everything, except when OS X comes into play. Why even bother comparing? You are free to choose any of the three. People who choose Macs usually don't look elsewhere, people who choose Windows usually don't look elsewhere, and people who choose Linux usually don't look elsewhere. Not in my limited experience anyway. Well as my other post (still in the writing) will probably prove to you,
Per Jessen schreef op 29-03-16 20:51: that is not true for me, and I can bet it is not true for the OP here. You seem to make this a battle of the titans and you have to make one choice out of three, but only one choice. The answer is in my next answer:
But it's not about Windows. We don't care about Windows. Good, then why bring it up?
Because it is not about Windows, but about its features (or characteristics) and those features (and characteristics) can and should be allowed, they can and are able to live independent on that system. Just because an apple is Red doesn't mean a strawberry can't be Red either. And then if someone says "I want red strawberries!" you go and say "Why do you keep comparing to apples?" NO IT IS NOT about the APPLE (bad example, no pun intended) it is about the COLOUR RED (also bad example, no pun intended ) :P. Why SHOULDN'T we have something that is good? And if you don't look elsewhere where it's BETTER, how will you even be able to talk about that good thing? And I'm not talking about everything being better. I am talking about aspects or facets. And aspects and facets are things you can incorporate. They are stuff you can take over, you can take them over because they area ideas, and not products. You are conflicting and confusing the idea with the product. Windows is a product. Some feature of Windows is actually an idea. But you are trying to get us to be disallowed to talk about the ideas because "it belongs to Windows" buuuh. You're only argument that we shouldn't have something, is because Windows has it. I base my choices based on features and aspects, not on wholes (at least not for my allegiance). Maybe at any one point I have to choose what OS I use. But I don't have to say "I like only Windows" or "I like only Linux" at any one point in time.
So don't mistake "Windows fanboyism" with "Linux fanboyism" and don't compare "having an attitude about Windows" with "wanting what Windows offers, while also getting what Linux offers".
You are really deeply mistaken about these things, from my perspective. Anyway, signing out. I have absolutely no idea what it is you've been on about, Xen. Safe travels.
Thank you. You too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 12:10 PM, Xen wrote:
You are conflicting and confusing the idea with the product. Windows is a product. Some feature of Windows is actually an idea.
But you are trying to get us to be disallowed to talk about the ideas because "it belongs to Windows" buuuh.
You're only argument that we shouldn't have something, is because Windows has it.
If your "Still in writing" post is as much nonsense as this, save us all the trouble and don't bother posting it. Nobody, NOBODY has made the arguments you are so busy straw-manning here. Nobody said that. Nobody. Just stop it. Please stop. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
sdm wrote:
On 03/29/2016 10:34 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 09:26 AM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. Instead of ranting and stomping off in protest, why not just go to desktop settings select Windows Behavior, then Windows Behavior again, and select some other placement scheme, such as "Under the Cursor"?
Placing things "where you want" is asking for a sense of omniscience that, quite frankly, I don't want any computer to achieve.
Because with your attitude, Linux is going to stay at 1% market share, and never said I'm stomping off, nor am I ranting. It's exactly attitudes like your which are the very problem with Linux on the desktop and why it stagnates, practically going nowhere
xen and sdm, you're both ranting and raving, it's difficult to tell what it is you guys are trying to say/do? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.0°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
sdm wrote:
On 03/29/2016 10:34 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 09:26 AM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. Instead of ranting and stomping off in protest, why not just go to desktop settings select Windows Behavior, then Windows Behavior again, and select some other placement scheme, such as "Under the Cursor"?
Placing things "where you want" is asking for a sense of omniscience that, quite frankly, I don't want any computer to achieve.
Because with your attitude, Linux is going to stay at 1% market share,
Converting people and corporations is as difficult as it has always been. It remains difficult to marry the open source model, the desire for stability and the commercial sustainability - someone will get it right though.
and never said I'm stomping off, nor am I ranting. It's exactly attitudes like your which are the very problem with Linux on the desktop and why it stagnates, practically going nowhere
Where do you feel the Linux desktop needs to go? To quote Anton Aylward, "as avid readers will no doubt recall", my personal workstation is still on 10.3 and KDE3, more recent desktops have little to offer. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Where do you feel the Linux desktop needs to go? To quote Anton Aylward, "as avid readers will no doubt recall", my personal workstation is still on 10.3 and KDE3, more recent desktops have little to offer.
... have little MORE to offer. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.5°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 10:34 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 09:26 AM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window.
Instead of ranting and stomping off in protest, why not just go to desktop settings select Windows Behavior, then Windows Behavior again, and select some other placement scheme, such as "Under the Cursor"?
Placing things "where you want" is asking for a sense of omniscience that, quite frankly, I don't want any computer to achieve.
As a matter of fact, you can arrange the windows the way you want, then go to desktop settings, and select "Start up and Shutdown" and tell it to Restore Previous, or Restore Manually saved, and it will log you in next time it will restore the desktop exactly as you left it or as you Manually set it. There are plenty of changes in KDE. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 10:40 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 10:34 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 09:26 AM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. Instead of ranting and stomping off in protest, why not just go to desktop settings select Windows Behavior, then Windows Behavior again, and select some other placement scheme, such as "Under the Cursor"?
Placing things "where you want" is asking for a sense of omniscience that, quite frankly, I don't want any computer to achieve.
As a matter of fact, you can arrange the windows the way you want, then go to desktop settings, and select "Start up and Shutdown" and tell it to Restore Previous, or Restore Manually saved, and it will log you in next time it will restore the desktop exactly as you left it or as you Manually set it.
There are plenty of changes in KDE.
Then smart window placement is a stupid default, by your logic, because it tries to guess where the user wants the window. So then, why is that the default? It's not a good default at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
sdm schreef op 29-03-16 19:47:
Then smart window placement is a stupid default, by your logic, because it tries to guess where the user wants the window. So then, why is that the default? It's not a good default at all.
I have personally have never had an issue with KDE's window placement, but let's not get derailed here. You only expressed this as an example. It is not the end of the world right. I don't see the problem with moving a window around myself, and if you complain about this you probably complain about multiple windows? Maybe it's a good feature, I don't know. I do not even remember or have ever noticed the difference between this and Windows, but that's just me. That doesn't have to mean that what you say is bad or wrong, and it doesn't have to take away from anything else either. Is just my opinion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 10:47 AM, sdm wrote:
Then smart window placement is a stupid default, by your logic, because it tries to guess where the user wants the window. So then, why is that the default? It's not a good default at all. --
Smart window placement does not try to "guess where users want the window". Precisely WHERE did you get that idea? Smart window placement attempts to minimize overlap. That's ALL it promises to do!!! Its merely one choice. And it is as good a default as any other, in the absence of any user settings. So on what basis do you claim its "not a good default at all"? Did you take a survey? How many testers did you poll? Don't like it, Change it. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 02:00 PM, John Andersen wrote:
Don't like it, Change it.
A significant part of the problem gets back to RTFM and education. much of the negative side of this thread has more to do with ignorance of what is possible, what things actually are. "More smoke than fire" -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 12:26 PM, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window.
Pardon me, but perhaps I know KDE4 a bit better than you do, since I am able to have KDE4 open windows where I want them, the size I want them
IIRC X doesn't support remembering the positioning of where windows were after closing them,
That may be so, but I don't care since I don't use raw X11. I'm not sure anyone does these days :-)
but I'm assuming Wayland will solve most or all of these issues.
We''l see.
But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it?
Wayland has been diverted to the "phone and tablet" world. See, for example, https://fosdem.org/2016/schedule/event/enlightenment_of_wayland/attachments/... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen https://www.tizen.org/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/samsung-tizen-market-share-2015/ The question, therefore, is when will we see Tizen on PCs? I thought it was supposed to be
shipping already a long time ago, but every time they say "it's coming" it never happens, and the current Wayland beta on openSUSE is a total disaster and barely runs on any GPU I've tried it on.
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist.
-- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward schreef op 29-03-16 19:41:
But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? Wayland has been diverted to the "phone and tablet" world. See, for example, https://fosdem.org/2016/schedule/event/enlightenment_of_wayland/attachments/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/samsung-tizen-market-share-2015/
The question, therefore, is when will we see Tizen on PCs?
Are you serious? From the looks of it Tizen will never be popular on a smartphone although it might get to drive other devices where it doesn't have to compete with Android. And at the same time .... it is also not a desktop OS at all. You're just trying to make him get lost in the woods, right. If Wayland has been derailed by this, that is a very bad thing. I THINK. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 01:54 PM, Xen wrote:
Anton Aylward schreef op 29-03-16 19:41:
But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? Wayland has been diverted to the "phone and tablet" world. See, for example, https://fosdem.org/2016/schedule/event/enlightenment_of_wayland/attachments/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/samsung-tizen-market-share-2015/
The question, therefore, is when will we see Tizen on PCs?
Are you serious? From the looks of it Tizen will never be popular on a smartphone although it might get to drive other devices where it doesn't have to compete with Android.
You are displaying ignorance of what Tizen and Android each are. They are closer to each other than, say, the Linux, BSD, OSX triad. You'd be better of saying that Android isn't competing with iOS. Reality is both Android and Tizen are Linux and OpenSource, and there are people taking that source and hacking it and putting it up on other phones. There's plenty of that about. Some of it is feeding back; Linux has always "cross pollinated". How soon people forget.. At one time Windows was bomb and the talking heads said that business would never accept it and replace MS-DOS with it. Long before Android and iOS there were cell phnes with 'features'. If we go back to 1983, the DynaTAC mobile phone launched on the first US 1G network by Ameritech. It cost $100m to develop, and took over a decade to reach the market. The phone had a talk time of just thirty-five minutes and took ten hours to charge. What a bummer! Who would want THAT!?!? But yes there was a demand for it. So if the first Tizen phone is a bummer, its in a good tradition.
And at the same time .... it is also not a desktop OS at all.
By the same criteria Android isn't a desktop OS, "laptops" (if you'll pardon the broad category for clamshells with screens and keyboards) running chrome, windows or ubuntu aren't desktop OS either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromebook (which is really Linux) http://mylinuxexplore.blogspot.ca/2014/06/ubuntu-on-touch-screen-laptop-sett... (which is really Linux again) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Surface All of which are being pushed as "desktop replacement".
If Wayland has been derailed by this, that is a very bad thing. I THINK.
If you think it was "derailed" as opposed to being the "basis for" then you obviously haven't read the articles. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 12:47 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
You are displaying ignorance of what Tizen and Android each are.
AFAIK Tizen is merely a stick, with which Samsung occasionally threatens to beat Google, in order to get its way. ;-) -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
John Andersen schreef op 29-03-16 21:57:
On 03/29/2016 12:47 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
You are displaying ignorance of what Tizen and Android each are. AFAIK Tizen is merely a stick, with which Samsung occasionally threatens to beat Google, in order to get its way.
;-)
Exactly. That's about the exact gist I get from it too :). With some info added by you :p. They sell some phones in Asia, like, what? And there are no apps for it. There are not even any good apps for Windows Phone yet. There is no good Whatsapp, and no good Instagram, on Windows Phone. I mean huuuuh. And mostly or in part that is because of Microsoft's dysfunctional app style, but that may be a little bit beside the point. I just think Windows Phone is unusable. I have one. I still don't really know how to use it after about 5 months. Maybe 6 months. I am constantly confused about it. But that is beside the point, but. For an app developer having to support 4 different platforms????? Not going to happen okay unless there is something really great about this next platform, and that is just not reality. That spells the likes of BeOS. Great thing, still went under. Tizen. Samsung. An infinitisemal part of their sales, only in Asian regions. And Linux people being like "OMG, this is the next big thing!". Yeah. Just because it's open source or something? I see something for it in the likes of smartwatches and all that, but not anything else at this point. Call me ignorant then. I go by what I see. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward schreef op 29-03-16 21:47:
If you think it was "derailed" as opposed to being the "basis for" then you obviously haven't read the articles.
Sorry, I'm not getting into all that nonsense you wrote, but the gist of your initial message was that Wayland resources are being spent on Tizen. And the way I judge Tizen (you know, looking at it now, from my perspective) that would be a bad investment because.... it is not going to help Desktop linux as much as you say. Maybe you are not implying that. Then I don't know why you were trying to derail the conversation here (Yes, I say that). If you said that "Wayland is getting nowhere" because its resources are directed to something else (that from my perspective is not very useful here or at all) then that is not a good thing for Wayland or for desktop Linux. If resources are not getting redirected, then there was no point in saying what you did. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am 29.03.2016 um 18:26 schrieb sdm:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. IIRC X doesn't support remembering the positioning of where windows were after closing them, as does Microsoft Windows since probably what, Windows 95 or 98?
No OS supports remembering the window position. It's always a feature of the application. If you want this on KDE, right click on the little icon in the top left corner of your windows -> More Actions ... -> Special Settings for this Window (translated from German). Its not a very comfortable feature, though. So in a sense, KDE is even better at this than Windows because it works for any application on KDE. On Windows, it only works for applications which ask for it. Unless you install extensions which tend to make Windows unstable.
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist.
This only proves that active developers don't care for some kind of function which you deem essential. As always with open source: Fire up your editor or pay someone to implement the feature or beg long enough. OSS is a survival of the fittest at its very core. It sucks if you're a minority. I, for one, have never found a system which places windows in a good way. I rely on sleep/hibernate to keep applications where I want them. Regards, -- Aaron "Optimizer" Digulla a.k.a. Philmann Dark "It's not the universe that's limited, it's our imagination. Follow me and I'll show you something beyond the limits." http://blog.pdark.de/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 11:22 AM, Aaron Digulla wrote:
I, for one, have never found a system which places windows in a good way. I rely on sleep/hibernate to keep applications where I want them.
Exactly. But there are a lot of choices in KDE, Maybe even too many. 1) Windows Behavior settings 2) Start Up Shut down behavior 3) More Actions - Windows settings 4) Suspend/Resume 5) Activities KDE has done a good job of hiding useless complexity wanted by some tiny noisy faction of the userbase in places where they can tinker but which also keeps it out of the way of most users, who are happy with the defaults -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 11:37 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 11:22 AM, Aaron Digulla wrote:
I, for one, have never found a system which places windows in a good way. I rely on sleep/hibernate to keep applications where I want them. Exactly. But there are a lot of choices in KDE, Maybe even too many.
1) Windows Behavior settings 2) Start Up Shut down behavior 3) More Actions - Windows settings 4) Suspend/Resume 5) Activities
KDE has done a good job of hiding useless complexity wanted by some tiny noisy faction of the userbase in places where they can tinker but which also keeps it out of the way of most users, who are happy with the defaults
John, rather than fill the ML up with useless noise like you always do, why don't actually try to post something useful for once.. rather than just...noise -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/29/2016 11:37 AM, John Andersen wrote:
On 03/29/2016 11:22 AM, Aaron Digulla wrote:
I, for one, have never found a system which places windows in a good way. I rely on sleep/hibernate to keep applications where I want them.
Exactly. But there are a lot of choices in KDE, Maybe even too many.
1) Windows Behavior settings 2) Start Up Shut down behavior 3) More Actions - Windows settings 4) Suspend/Resume 5) Activities
KDE has done a good job of hiding useless complexity wanted by some tiny noisy faction of the userbase in places where they can tinker but which also keeps it out of the way of most users, who are happy with the defaults
John, rather than fill the ML up with useless noise like you always do, why don't actually try to post something useful for once.. rather than just...noise Pot kettle black. You started this useless thread. If you want to know about
On Tuesday, 29 March 2016 12:15:54 BST sdm wrote: the status of wayland etc then join their community/mailing lists and ask the questions there and maybe you'll get informed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2016-03-29 at 20:22 +0200, Aaron Digulla wrote:
I, for one, have never found a system which places windows in a good way. I rely on sleep/hibernate to keep applications where I want them.
Same here. Also, there are apps that "session save" apparently are unable to save the position properly. To me, it happens on XFCE with xterms: on login I get perhaps a dozen xterms sitting exactly one on top of the other, and i have to remove or place them all. I don't know if other desktops handle this better. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlb8Nh8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VpCgCZARNQkKrdz/AbQ5Lj9iEXjOE5 ZloAn1IbzLLTQL3U13N3FQBwI/zOUCYI =iIMw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/03/16 03:26, sdm wrote:
KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. IIRC X doesn't support remembering the positioning of where windows were after closing them, as does Microsoft Windows since probably what, Windows 95 or 98? I always set it to centered (Window Actions and Behavior > Advances) which works for the most part, but I'm assuming Wayland will solve most or all of these issues. But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? I thought it was supposed to be shipping already a long time ago, but every time they say "it's coming" it never happens, and the current Wayland beta on openSUSE is a total disaster and barely runs on any GPU I've tried it on.
The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist.
Why don't you read very carefully the entry for _Wayland_ in the Wikipedia -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29 ? Ciao, BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.5.0-4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
One thing that seems to be missing from this discussion is 'networking'. One fundamental difference between the way Windows works and the way X work is that they are "the other way round" from each other. That makes X an intrinsic remote protocol and hence network-able to start with. They Greybeards among us may recall, a century or more ago, attending USENIX and InterOp conferences where the "terminal room" had X terminals that allowed the miscreants to access their home accounts (often at universities, for such was the nature of the (small 'i') internet in those days). MS-Windows was not a networking protocol. MS-DOS was not about networking the terminal. Aficionados from those days might recall that in order to get acceptable performance, many applications wrote directly to the graphics memory rather than use the INT10 call. And so it went when when Windows came along. the display is the client, the applications are the server, just the other way round from X. It was not intrinsically there to deal with networking and remote access because it grew out the PC world rather than the shared server world of UNIX. The PC was the complete ecosystem, all closely coupled. This was before networking, before the internet. Did Bill Gates actually say "The internet is just a passing fad" or "The Internet? We are not interested in it"? But remember, MS-DOS and even W/95 was before the "commercial" side of the (big "I") Internet took of. ANS had just started "CO+RE" in 1991 and sold its networking side to AOL in 1995 when the NFS backbone was decommissioned. We might view that as the starting point; it wasn't rally until the rise of the WorldWideWeb (the concept rather than Berners-Lee program of the same name running on the NEXT) that the Internet really took off. Adding network access to MS-Windows display was VERY different from the way X works. X, like NAPLPS, like HTTP says things like "set font; set size; set location; display text"; "set colour, set location, draw this shape, this size". MS-Windows has to transmit the image. Its not that X (and the others) don't have a means to BitBlit a framebuffer, its just that its not their primary mode. They try to be network efficient, and X and NAPLPS were workable over a 1200 baud link. I'm sure sending raw http over a 1200 baud link would be liveable, I've never tried it :-) I *have* used X and NAPLPS over a 1200 baud link and they were quite liveable. (Yes, I preferred a 2400 or even 9600 baud modem, but that's beside the point.) Trying to run the Windows remote protocols over a 10Mhz ethernet is frustrating enough. Trying to run something like VNC is hair-pulling. We have an Windows application at work that runs with dual screens doing document comparison - the scanned source document on one screen and the database entry of the same on the other. Compare and correct or input. The manager asked IT to permit it to to be used 'at home". IT equipped the user with more than adequate computing power and a high speed cable link. It sucked. Well I do transcontinental, even transatlantic work with many windows open and more than acceptable updates using X on Linux, so why was this performing badly? The IT guys paid to jack up the data rates; it got better but not good enough. Transmitting the frame buffers for a pair of large screen page mode displays (each 5120 × 2880 @16:9) was crazed! I took in a drive with Suse on it, configured that home machine to used X, set up my Linux machine at work to do a similar access (I don't have actual access to the documents and database but set up similar for the demo.) The excellent performance sent the manager ballistic and nearly got me fired. Why? I'd embarrassed him and his decision to use the Windows application. IT wasn't too happy either. The end resolution was that the work at home initiative was cancelled. Could it have turned out differently? Could there have been some other solution? Citrix-based maybe? Possibly. But this isn't the only time I've seen an expensive and difficult Windows & network based project that could have been done cheaper-faster-easier with Linux. So much of Windows and Windows attitude involves shoving vast amounts of stuff over the network. Of course this is good for people selling things like Cisco Gigabit networking stuff, switches and fibre, and large flash memory arrays. Personally I'm more parsimonious. Its easy to forget when we're using a PC that with Linux the display is actually networked (even if it only via UNIX sockets) and not closely coupled like MS-Windows. If someone wants to implement a closely couple display mechanism for Linux that still have to deal with the applications (aka clients) that use the X protocol and so there needs to be an X11-shim. Oh, right, yes, Leyland has one. Because Wayland is not, as X11 is, network transparent. https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html#heading_toc_j_8 I can't "call home" or do the kind of remote access I can with X11 using just Wayland. I still need that X11 capability even if my machine is using Wayland to do the local display. Perhaps if you want Wayland you should be using Archlinux rather then openSuse. Suse is a lot more conservative :-) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
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Aaron Digulla -
Anton Aylward -
Basil Chupin -
Carlos E. R. -
ianseeks -
jdd -
John Andersen -
Per Jessen -
sdm -
Xen